The Righteous VS. The Good

[Snow]

I like what C.S. Lewis once said about Christ's commandments to us (he was talking about the Trinity, but the principle can be extrapolated to this issue as well). "The commandment is to take, and eat; not take, and understand".

I think we all run into doctrine that we don't like, or are commanded to do things we don't want to. Even Christ would have preferred not to have died in order to fulfill the Atonement, but He still partook of His own bitter cup and drank it all, dow to the dregs.

Okay - that's a valid point perhaps but I'm pretty sure that salvation does not hinge or accepting anonymous bible stories as historical fact.

[Snow]

I was referring to Just a guy dancing around your comments...

I guess I don't understand. I disagree with him and think that he is both illogical and probably spoofing but he seems to be arguing from an orthodox LDS doctrinal position.

[Just_A_Guy]

I hate when someone comes along and uses twists and turns to try and make a poster look bad, and the doctrine of the LDS church look corrupt...

I was referring to Just a guy dancing around your comments...

Grandmakabipbip, with all due respect:

LDS doctrine accepts that a Passover occurred, wherein the firstborn of Egypt--including children--were killed.

LDS doctrine accepts that Nephite cities were destroyed for wickedness, and all their inhabitants killed.

LDS doctrine, to a greater or lesser degree, accepts the tales of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

LDS doctrine, to a greater or lesser degree, accepts the scriptural story of a flood which Noah survived, and which many of his contemporaries did not.

LDS-correlated and published materials accept and justify the scriptural account of the Israelite conquest of Canaan, including the wholesale slaughter of the Canaanites.

I am not the one coming out and saying that for God to do and/or order all this was "immoral".

Have I made some impolitic remarks to Snow in the rough-and-tumble of this discussion? Probably so. But whatever else has taken place here, I have not corrupted LDS doctrine.

[Maxel]

Grandmakabipbip, Just_A_Guy has incidents from the canonical LDS scriptures supporting the basis of his argument. Snow and JAG are engaging in a level of dialogue too complex for me to fully follow, but the essence of their disagreement is simple. Certain incidents in scripture support the issue JAG is contending (destruction of Sodom and the Nephite cities; Nephi slaying Laban after being commanded by God; and more), while Snow is arguing that such events cannot have happened the way they are recorded in the scriptures we currently have. Their discussion with each other has evolved to a much more complex manner, but the basis is simple.

[Just_A_Guy]

No, Snow; I am not spoofing. I go into discussions like this on the principle (which perhaps I should have clarified up front) that I take the canon of scripture at face value unless or until someone provides a solid argument as to why I should not.

. . . and now you claim that you aren't contending anything, despite having done just that over pages and pages of this thread.

Snow, two days ago you tried to pin me into advocating the position that God does in fact kill children, and I informed you then that

I have no intention of taking the argument that far. I'm just pointing out that your attempt to rewrite scripture is based on a moral code to which you can't even demonstrate God adheres.

It should not surprise you that I'm not standing by a contention that I warned you, thirty-nine posts ago, I did not intend to make.

You repeatedly refuse to back up other of your assertions when challenged.

I am genuinely mystified as to your definition of "back up". You seem to find my quoting, and even linking to, previous posts to be insufficient. Ditto when I cite specific chapter and verse where an event is referred to--you first ignore such citations, and then dismiss them as insufficient "evidence" even to illustrate that an event is indeed recorded in the Book of Mormon or that the book's authors' attitude on those events may be divined from the text.

You demand that I prove that babies didn't consent to be killed while in another life.

Guilty. I do, indeed, demand that you prove that any alleged "immorality" of God's taking life would not be negated by antemortal consent on the part of the person being killed. If you want presume to tell me which scriptures to believe and which not to believe; then you must dot every "i" and cross every "t".

You claim that saying that killing is bad is circular reasoning.

Saying that killing is bad because killing is bad is circular reasoning. I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

If you want to force God into some kind of box, that's your prerogative insofar as your personal theology is concerned. If you're trying to convince me and a bunch of other Latter-day Saints to do likewise, you're going to need to do so with logical arguments based on a solid foundation. The closest you've gotten is a generic statement that life is sacred. It's a pity, because you do have a very penetrating mind and I think that, had you chosen to follow up on that statement, you could have fleshed it out into something really fascinating and we all could have learned a lot from you. Heck, I may have wound up agreeing with you.

Best--

--JAG

Edited September 8, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Grandmakabipbip]

Okay...

[Dove]

I feel a little trepidation to enter into this discussion.....First of all, it's been going on for awhile, and I don't like piping in during the late hours of it. Secondly, I don't have quite the reasoning ability and scriptures at the tip of my tongue technique to compete with Snow, JAG, and others. I'm reminded of the scripture in the Bible, "Ever learning, and never coming to a knowledge of the truth."

However, I do feel the urging to speak out on the issues being brought up in this thread. I hope for further answers and perspectives.

It amazes me that you, Snow, go on and on about how God will not kill innocent people/babies, when infants and innocents die all the time without God's intervention. Yeah, yeah, you might say that God will not intervene and rob an evil person of their agency. To me, it's quite a thin line between executing the action, and, with the power to stop it, standing idly by.

I think of the Book of Mormon story (forgive me, I am a little confused as to what you define as not necessarily historically correct and what principals are true) where Alma and Amulek witnessed the women and children being burned by the Ammonihahites because they had accepted the gospel through their teaching. Amulek wanted to save the women and children from the horrific death through the power of God, only to have Alma stop him and say that "The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in aglory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the bjudgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the cblood of the dinnocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day."

There are so many instances in the Book of Mormon that say God suffers the righteous to be slain, in order for his judgments to rest on the wicked......

There are also many instances in the Bible where God allows the righteous to suffer horrific things, even to death, that His eternal purposes may be accomplished.

I feel like God not taking a life (which, he does take lives all the time) and not intervening when others do it is quibbling the point.

Maxel, you talk of how it is merciful for babies/little children to be killed rather than living with the devastating effects of emotional, physical and sexual abuse. I really relate to this because I do have all three of those abuses in my childhood. I have long wondered why God didn't mercifully let me die at one point in the memories I have recalled, rather than forcing me to live on with the consequences....

I really like the theory that, at some point in time, we were presented with what would happen to us in this life, and given the option as to live it or no. Yes, I have no evidence to back that theory up, other than revelation given to me through a priesthood blessing years ago. This is about the only thing that makes sense to me.

It's hard to wrap my mind around the necessity of the fall and the resulting evil introduced into this world. I can only say that I believe "opposition" is necessary for our growth and progression; that God is all powerful, that he lets babies die in horrific and heinous ways all the time, that he calls the shots on matters of life and death, and that what really transcends wether or not a person lives or dies is their eternal wellfare. In other words, what happens to me while I'm here isn't the point. The point is what I choose to do with it. I profoundly believe that, to choose to handle it in such a way that I am eternally benefitted requires me to utilize the grace of Christ. That without His grace through the atonement, I would be destroyed, or forever doomed to the misery of the adversary.

[Grandmakabipbip]

Your insights make a lot of sense Dove. I must also remind everyone here that -- we are suffering from the fall. We aren't in heaven. Things here are meant to torment and test us.

Considering that we are in a fallen state living among all others in a fallen state, we see that we are also receiving ___ NOT for Adams transgression___ our just due for falling ourselves.

The 'innocent' reallly aren't ... they are fallen or in a fallen state here in this life...

Now there is an interesting scripture that clarifies where we are and where we are going-- If we claim the atonement. D&C 93: 38

38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

This scripture speaks of THE BEGINNING... Not the beginning of this earth life-- but in the beginning before the fall.

It is easier to understand God when you understand the big picture and the order and place in which we are at...

[Snow]

It amazes me that you, Snow, go on and on about how God will not kill innocent people/babies, when infants and innocents die all the time without God's intervention. Yeah, yeah, you might say that God will not intervene and rob an evil person of their agency. To me, it's quite a thin line between executing the action, and, with the power to stop it, standing idly by.

That is not exactly my point. Personally I do not know what God does or would do. My point is that I cannot reconcile the concept of a just and benevolent god with the portrait of a God that 1. proactively kills innocent life and to a lesser extent 2 stands by idly while innocent life suffers.

There may be a way to reconcile it, but I have yet to see it.

There are so many instances in the Book of Mormon that say God suffers the righteous to be slain, in order for his judgments to rest on the wicked......

Think about that for a minute. Do you worship the kind of God that would allow your (hypothetically) husband and or baby to be killed leave you a starving childless widow just to later be able to convict the murderer of the murders?

Maybe - but I can't reconcile that with the law of justice. Can you?

There are also many instances in the Bible where God allows the righteous to suffer horrific things, even to death, that His eternal purposes may be accomplished.

I'm with Brigham Young on that one - seems more like a bunch of children's fairy tales to me.

Oh, and by the way... I am sure you already know but as it so happens, there is not a single demonstrated case in the whole of human history when it has been proven that God either killed someone or let someone be killed in order to let His judgement rest on the wicked. Not even one. Coincidence?

Edited September 9, 2009 by Snow

[Grandmakabipbip]

Oh, and by the way... I am sure you already know but as it so happens, there is not a single demonstrated case in the whole of human history when it has been proven that God either killed someone or let someone be killed in order to let His judgement rest on the wicked. Not even one. Coincidence?

Can you prove this? I think not... unless you know the mind of God.

[Traveler]

First off it is my personal impression that many over emphasize death and suffering. Mortal life really is a very little bump in eternity. Just for compressions the current universe is about 12 billion years old. Not really eternity for it will do for an example. Life is what about 80 years? If we compare time to distance – say one foot to 1,000 years then our existence just since the universe was created is about the same as the distance from Salt Lake City to Los Angles. Our mortal life is about 1 and ½ inch. If someone is traveling from Salt Lake City to Los Angles what can possibly happen in the last 1 and ½ inch as you are coming to a stop?

I know life can be hard but I heard a talk once with a theme that life is hard by the yard but a cinch by the inch. Shakespeare once wrote, “Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems, only that thinking makes it so.”

One last thing – I know that sometimes children suffer. I have traveled many places in this world and I realize that almost always when there is suffering there are children in the worst of it. I also realize that there is a lot of good going on in the world. I have faith that G-d watches over all things and that he will bring about good out of whatever is happening. I do a lot of white water rafting and I have learned that when the water gets fast and rough you just point you boat straight at it and think that whatever happens is going to be fun. We have had boats overturn and dump everyone in the river. What I have learned is when the worse happens that panic will never help. You might as well think of it as fun. I have learned that when the river (or life) gets a hold of things you just have to ride it out. Trust in your life preserver (have faith in G-d). There is no other choice. Fight against the current and you will only wear yourself out – the current will take you where it will take you. And in the end we all will die – we might as well enjoy life each day we have to live and die noble.

The Traveler

[Snow]

Oh, and by the way... I am sure you already know but as it so happens, there is not a single demonstrated case in the whole of human history when it has been proven that God either killed someone or let someone be killed in order to let His judgement rest on the wicked. Not even one. Coincidence?

Can you prove this? I think not... unless you know the mind of God.

I think you are confused. It is not the mind of God that is at issue. The issue is that there is no proven case of God ever having killed anyone, regardless or what His mind is.

Can I prove it? Probably not - so let me rephrase it. There is not a single proven case that I or anyone here on this board can point to and if I am wrong, please point out the case.

Please note: we will wait indefinitely and forever before anyone posts such a case.

[Grandmakabipbip]

You want proof that your opinion is wrong. I want proof that mine is.

[Misshalfway]

There is not a single proven case that I or anyone here on this board can point to and if I am wrong, please point out the case.

Well, God told Nephi to cut off Laban's head.......

God is the source of our very breath! I have a hard time believing that he hasn't backed that up a time or two.

[Traveler]

I think you are confused. It is not the mind of God that is at issue. The issue is that there is no proven case of God ever having killed anyone, regardless or what His mind is.

Can I prove it? Probably not - so let me rephrase it. There is not a single proven case that I or anyone here on this board can point to and if I am wrong, please point out the case.

Please note: we will wait indefinitely and forever before anyone posts such a case.

Does being an accessory count? Ie. Giving an "order" to a subordinate?

The Traveler

[Misshalfway]

Does being an accessory count? Ie. Giving an "order" to a subordinate?

The Traveler

Did Hitler actually kill anyone? Did he have the gonads? (excuse my french)

[Dove]

That is not exactly my point. Personally I do not know what God does or would do. My point is that I cannot reconcile the concept of a just and benevolent god with the portrait of a God that 1. proactively kills innocent life and to a lesser extent 2 stands by idly while innocent life suffers.

There may be a way to reconcile it, but I have yet to see it.

Think about that for a minute. Do you worship the kind of God that would allow your (hypothetically) husband and or baby to be killed leave you a starving childless widow just to later be able to convict the murderer of the murders?

Maybe - but I can't reconcile that with the law of justice. Can you?

I'm with Brigham Young on that one - seems more like a bunch of children's fairy tales to me.

Oh, and by the way... I am sure you already know but as it so happens, there is not a single demonstrated case in the whole of human history when it has been proven that God either killed someone or let someone be killed in order to let His judgement rest on the wicked. Not even one. Coincidence?

Hey, Snow,

I appreciate your pov......I feel in my first post on this thread that the scripture I quoted from the Book of Mormon clearly stated that God allows even righteous people to be killed that his judgments to be carried out on the wicked will be just......

Here are the verses again.....

9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of amartyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire. 10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the apower of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in aglory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the bjudgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the cblood of the dinnocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

I can't state it more clearly.....And you certainly have the mental capacity to understand the words/meaning/intent of what was just stated. I certainly can give you example upon example of how many people have been called to suffer and die for Christ's name, throughout the Book of Mormon and Bible. However, because of your intellectual prowess and position as a moderator here. I have assumed that you are 1) LDS, 2) have read and studied the scriptures, meaning Book of Mormon and Bible, a great deal, and 3) believe that the writings are true and correct. Am I wrong in these assumptions? If so, may I ask, what do you believe?

As far as "child's fairy tales" goes, I would suggest a different jab. (Sorry, it did seem like a jab to me.) The reason being, is it seems to me far more childish and dismissive of the whole issue of human suffering at large to not address that extreme suffering is the norm in our world, not the exception. Millions of people every day die slow, heinous deaths not only of torture and murder, but by accidents. Mamy more live long lives of misery by many different circumstances. If we were going about this from a totally logical, reasonable, proof-ridden, and I believe the word is empirical, standpoint, even believing in God would seem just a "childish fairytale" to me....

You did say, "My point is that I cannot reconcile the concept of a just and benevolent god with the portrait of a God that 1. proactively kills innocent life and to a lesser extent 2 stands by idly while innocent life suffers." How do you reconcile the concept of a just and benevolent God with the suffering inherent in life?

"Faith" comes to my mind, as well as hope. I do have ideas and reasoning about this...but those come a great deal as my own opinion; so, unless invited, I'll not share them right now.

I do ask again what do you believe, and why? I'm interested.......

Edited September 10, 2009 by Dove

[Dove]

First off it is my personal impression that many over emphasize death and suffering.

I know life can be hard but I heard a talk once with a theme that life is hard by the yard but a cinch by the inch. Shakespeare once wrote, “Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems, only that thinking makes it so.”

Traveler, I have heard this rhetoric soo many times.....Variations on the theme are; have a good attitude, think positive thoughts, and even, don't feel sorry for oneself, we have the power to determine our reality (which I agree with to an extent), etc., etc.....

What rubs me wrong about this rhetoric is that it doesn't address the reality of pain and authentic suffering. I wonder, have you ever experienced profound suffering? If you have I would be much more likely to take seiously your pov.....You'd have much more of a leg to stand on in your advice.

One last thing – I know that sometimes children suffer. I have traveled many places in this world and I realize that almost always when there is suffering there are children in the worst of it. I also realize that there is a lot of good going on in the world. I have faith that G-d watches over all things and that he will bring about good out of whatever is happening.

I agree that God does use suffering to bring about His goodly/Godly eternal purposes.....

I do a lot of white water rafting and I have learned that when the water gets fast and rough you just point you boat straight at it and think that whatever happens is going to be fun. We have had boats overturn and dump everyone in the river. What I have learned is when the worse happens that panic will never help. You might as well think of it as fun. I have learned that when the river (or life) gets a hold of things you just have to ride it out. Trust in your life preserver (have faith in G-d). There is no other choice. Fight against the current and you will only wear yourself out – the current will take you where it will take you. And in the end we all will die – we might as well enjoy life each day we have to live and die noble.

The Traveler

While there may be "good" in the world, evil is so much more common~ I chafe at your comment because it again skirts the issue of, if not the necessity and purposefulness in pain, the inevitability of most everyone experiencing it.....To think of it as "fun," to me, is rather trite and light minded in it's perspective. I don't say this to be rude. My experience of life definitely is not one of "fun." Purposeful, full of witnesses as to the reality of good and evil, and my belief that God lives, that He's all powerful, that He knows me personally, and that what happens here has eternal consequences, yes; but simply "fun," no.....

There is purpose in everything, imo...whether we want to acknowledge that or not doesn't change it.

I personally look at life as attempting to hike a steep mountain at noon day, with rocks and dirt hailing down upon oneself. It would be very easy to just fall off it and perish below. The only thing that makes it traversable are the divinely placed foot holds given along the way; ie. grace.......Still, it requires all the skill, ability, and strength one has to arrive at it's summit and to be able to see the glorious view at top.

[Grandmakabipbip]

What do we do with the 'fallen state' in all of these aligories? Personally I see this as a chance to be redeemed-- pain has a purpose in redemption. It molds our characters, gives us sensitivity and compassion for others OR it makes us bitter and hardened --causing us to declare there is no God.

One person once stated that truth divided people. I say pain and suffering does as well. This is their purpose. This is the purpose of a life's sentence here on this planet.

Joseph Smith once was credited with saying that if we could see what was on the other side, many would be committing suiside to get there. The telestial kingdom / hell is on the other side... so is this place worse than hell?

I say it is. Wickedness flurishes with no effort and righteousness struggles. If you can come out of this life with your heart filled with charity-- you truly have grown due to the enormous amount of opposition you have faced and overcome.

Paul once stated that he rejoiced in affliction because it would warrant for him a greater glory in the life to come.

This life is our time to prepare to be worthy ..... to meet God Himself.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Grandmakabipbip
bad grammer

[Hemidakota]

Not many in the church will inherit the highest portion of the Celestial Kingdom, so why would they commit suicide? :)

But I do understand your point. When one does see the Celestial Kingdom., every waking mortal moment is a painful act to live. They will have to endure there remaining life in waiting for the moment of departure. So what shall they do? Lift the souls out of darkness back into the light, thus, taking part in not only building the kingdom of the Savior but keep busy until that moment arrives in their lives.

[Grandmakabipbip]

Not only the Celestial kingdom is glorious... more glorious than this earth... all the kingdoms are.. this earth is without glory.

After all it is where Satan was cast down.

[Traveler]

While there may be "good" in the world, evil is so much more common~ I chafe at your comment because it again skirts the issue of, if not the necessity and purposefulness in pain, the inevitability of most everyone experiencing it.....To think of it as "fun," to me, is rather trite and light minded in it's perspective. I don't say this to be rude. My experience of life definitely is not one of "fun." Purposeful, full of witnesses as to the reality of good and evil, and my belief that God lives, that He's all powerful, that He knows me personally, and that what happens here has eternal consequences, yes; but simply "fun," no.....

There is purpose in everything, imo...whether we want to acknowledge that or not doesn't change it.

I personally look at life as attempting to hike a steep mountain at noon day, with rocks and dirt hailing down upon oneself. It would be very easy to just fall off it and perish below. The only thing that makes it traversable are the divinely placed foot holds given along the way; ie. grace.......Still, it requires all the skill, ability, and strength one has to arrive at it's summit and to be able to see the glorious view at top.

I see that you and I differ in basic fundamentals. For me the joy is in the journey. Joy in a destination is temporary and fleeting. Joy for me is not in obtaining but the means. I believe many people set themselves up so that it is impossible for them to be happy. Allow me to give an example.

Most everybody wants to have a strong healthy body. They also want to eat unhealthy foods and leave the hard work and exercise to someone else. Therefore they can never be happy. They are either unhappy because they have to exercise and diet or they are unhappy because they are overweight and embarrassed to look at themselves in a mirror.

In this case the great secret of happiness in learning to enjoy eating good food and exercising and doing hard work. It is not doing just what is necessary (because it is not fun) for a sleek body or eating what tastes good and being horrified at your looks. The joy and glory of G-d is in the love and compassion of others – we do not have to wait for heaven to experience the joy and glory of G-d.

I also submit that the harder it is the do the right thing the greater the joy (and glory) is in doing it.

The Traveler

[Maxel]

I really hate that my thread has become the fodder for intellectual discussion about how modern, fallen morals render the Book of Mormon untrue.

Everyone go read your scriptures and pray... In the meantime, can a moderator close this? I'm so done with this topic and am having difficulty watching others mutilate it.

[Dove]

Maxel,

I'm sorry you feel this way......I didn't get that anyone was trying to "render the Book of Mormon untrue"......

I hope you're okay with the discussion diverging into other topics. Why not? Just because it started on one subject doesn't mean there's a rule from it diverging.....

I hope this thread isn't closed, as I haven't seen it fall into "mutilating" each other. We're just discussing.

Again, I feel bad you take issue. Why not enter into discussing the topic at hand? After all, we are talking about God's dealings with His chldren, in one way or another.

[Dove]

I see that you and I differ in basic fundamentals. For me the joy is in the journey. Joy in a destination is temporary and fleeting. Joy for me is not in obtaining but the means. I believe many people set themselves up so that it is impossible for them to be happy. Allow me to give an example.

Hello, Traveler....

I think we do "differ in basic fundamentals"...We may even differ in how we feel we differ from each other...LOL :)

Most everybody wants to have a strong healthy body. They also want to eat unhealthy foods and leave the hard work and exercise to someone else. Therefore they can never be happy. They are either unhappy because they have to exercise and diet or they are unhappy because they are overweight and embarrassed to look at themselves in a mirror.

In this case the great secret of happiness in learning to enjoy eating good food and exercising and doing hard work. It is not doing just what is necessary (because it is not fun) for a sleek body or eating what tastes good and being horrified at your looks.

It seems that you feel that all it takes to be happy is hard work and effort. Something like, "Boy, if I just try hard enough and white knuckle it thought (oh yeah, you did say to learn to find joy in healthy eating and exercise), I will be blessed with what I wanted and will have found "joy" along the way." I haven't found this to be the case.

In my own experience of life, more often than not, in my best efforts of doing "good" works, I have failed miserably. Failure has really been an overarching theme throughout my life. I have learned that most of the time, despite my best efforts, I have failed.....

I have had a lot of time to think this over. I believe God is teaching me things through my consistent "failure."

Like King Benjamin states, "we are nothing." Also, that God is in control, that all my puny "best" efforts combined mean nothing without Christ's grace, that there are more important attributes for me to learn besides succeeding. Humility, trust, patience, long-suffering are some....

While finding "joy in the journey" sounds nice (I think of the Book of Mormon scripture where, I think Moroni, addresses the "peaceable followers of Christ", I don't really find peace or joy all that much here.....Again, despite my best efforts, there are always things happening in my life that bring heartache and sorrow. I get glimpses of well being here and there, but those feeling are the exception more than the rule.

What saddens me about your line of thinking, is the unsaid belief that if a person is not experiencing "joy" in the journey, they must be doing something wrong or sinning for this to be the case. Maybe they haven't been trying hard enough or working hard enough or whatever. Correct me if I perceive this wrong. All too often I find this belief amongst other members of the church.

I haven't found this to be the case at all, for the very most part in my life or many others.

There are so many things that have happened to me in my life that have caused me "profound suffering," things I had no control over. My abusive childhood, diabetes, psychiatric issues, hormonal/ gynecological/infertility issues. The four issues I just listed all contribute and are linked to depression Severe depression plays a major role in my life....due to circumstances that are out of my control. Regardless of how much I try to "think happy thoughts, have a good attitude, and give it my best', this depression is not going to change. And please don't conclude that I haven't sought out medical help. I have for a very long time, with little result.

The joy and glory of G-d is in the love and compassion of others – we do not have to wait for heaven to experience the joy and glory of G-d.

I hope you find compassion and greater understanding towards those who experience the dark side of life.....

I also submit that the harder it is the do the right thing the greater the joy (and glory) is in doing it.

Wow, I don't have the energy to comment on that so much right now, only to say that, imo, the harder it gets, the more I need the grace of Christ to make it through, His strength, His love, His help.....

The Traveler

....

Edited September 10, 2009 by Dove