Why do you think it is impossible?

[tubaloth]

Reading through the lesson for tomorrow about Baptism for the Dead.

One of the questions was this:

"Why do you think it is impossible for us to be made perfect without them?"

Honestly I couldn't come up with a good answer. I know we have been taught that there is some type of linking that goes on, back to Adam. I'm sure with this Linking it is about the Priesthood. But how that stops ME from being perfect I'm not really sure. How do my ancestors stop me from being perfect?

[Justinator1]

That's a good question, I'm gonna need to do some research on this one.

[Justinator1]

Ok, after some pondering I have had but one thought. We are taught that one of the quickest and easiest ways to become more perfect is to serve others, he who loses himself in service will find himself (sorry for the paraphrase, I'm feeling lazy). So could it be that it is only through truly serving those who came before, helping them reach perfection through the needed ordinances, by giving of ourselves that we may attain a level of perfection?

It's an imperfect (no pun intended) and not wholly formed thought, but that's all I've got right now.

[pam]

Taken from the "Teachings of Presidents of the Church" Brigham Young

We are called, as it has been told you, to redeem the nations of the earth. The fathers cannot be made perfect without us; we cannot be made perfect without the fathers. There must be this chain in the holy Priesthood; it must be welded together from the latest generation that lives on the earth back to Father Adam, to bring back all that can be saved and placed where they can receive salvation and a glory in some kingdom. This Priesthood has to do it; this Priesthood is for this purpose (DBY, 407).

[Maxel]

One thing I thought of when pondering this question:

-'Salvation' (being saved from spiritual and temporal death) is an individual matter between one lone person and Christ.

-'Exaltation' (achieving the highest degree of glory, like the Father has) is a family matter. It takes a man and a woman married for eternity in God's holy temple.

Perhaps the 'perfect' referred to in the lesson manual refers to exaltation. I could see why this might be- we need to be able to trace our temporal lineage back to Adam to know our relationship to others; we might need to be able to trace our spiritual ineage (married by someone with the sealing power, who was given it by someone else, etc.) back to Christ as well. We could not have existed temporally without our ancestors; we could not have been redeemed or exalted if not for Christ's atonement. He is our spiritual progenitor.

[tubaloth]

Interesting Idea there Maxel. After reading more of the lesson we kind of are as close to the idea that we can be. Something to do with this linking, but as Maxel suggests its a spiritual Lineage. That brings me to pretty much one of the powerful quotes in the lesson. You have to read it slowly or you miss what Joseph Smith is trying to say.

“I will open your eyes in relation to the dead. All things whatsoever God in his infinite wisdom has seen fit and proper to reveal to us, while we are dwelling in mortality, in regard to our mortal bodies, are revealed to us in the abstract, and independent of affinity of this mortal tabernacle, but are revealed to our spirits precisely as though we had no bodies at all; and those revelations which will save our spirits will save our bodies. God reveals them to us in view of no eternal dissolution of the body, or tabernacle. Hence the responsibility, the awful responsibility, that rests upon us in relation to our dead; for all the spirits who have not obeyed the Gospel in the flesh must either obey it in the spirit or be damned. Solemn thought!—dreadful thought! Is there nothing to be done?—no preparation—no salvation for our fathers and friends who have died without having had the opportunity to obey the decrees of the Son of Man? …

“What promises are made in relation to the subject of the salvation of the dead? and what kind of characters are those who can be saved, although their bodies are moldering and decaying in the grave? When His commandments teach us, it is in view of eternity; for we are looked upon by God as though we were in eternity; God dwells in eternity, and does not view things as we do.

“The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead. The apostle says, ‘They without us cannot be made perfect’ [see Hebrews 11:40]; for it is necessary that the sealing power should be in our hands to seal our children and our dead for the fulness of the dispensation of times—a dispensation to meet the promises made by Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world for the salvation of man.

[Traveler]

The concept that perfect is about an individual is about as far off the concept as possible. Salvation is not about an individual getting all the blessings for themselves that they can. Being perfect is not about Me – Me – Me – Me.

We can better understand perfection when we realize it has more to do with being complete than it means “without flaw”. The truth is that we cannot be complete without our ancestors – nor are they complete without us. It is all about putting off “selfish” notions and having love and compassion for others. No society can be complete without the notions of respect for their ancestors and dedication to its children and descendants.

Seeking pleasures for individual gratification and loosing the joy of being connected to one’s past ancestors and future generations is the worst kind of being lost and having no home – being homeless. Without such moorings, anchors and navigational charts – every step in life become a danger and a risk in losing one’s self – forever.

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

"Why do you think it is impossible for us to be made perfect without them?"

Who said it had anything to do with being made perfect? It's part of the process of accepting Christ. No baptism, no Christ, no salvation from our sins, no heaven. Worry about perfection later.

And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.

For behold, this is my church; whosoever is baptized shall be baptized unto repentance. And whomsoever ye receive shall believe in my name; and him will I freely forgive.

I speak by way of command unto you that belong to the church; and unto those who do not belong to the church I speak by way of invitation, saying: Come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye also may be partakers of the fruit of the tree of life.

Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

And behold, he cometh to redeem those who will be baptized unto repentance, through faith on his name.

Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

LM

[deseretgov]

Reading through the lesson for tomorrow about Baptism for the Dead.

One of the questions was this:

"Why do you think it is impossible for us to be made perfect without them?"

Honestly I couldn't come up with a good answer. I know we have been taught that there is some type of linking that goes on, back to Adam. I'm sure with this Linking it is about the Priesthood. But how that stops ME from being perfect I'm not really sure. How do my ancestors stop me from being perfect?

Because without our ancestors we cannot be linked through the generations unto Adam. We have to have those sealing links if we are to attain eternal life.

Also Ressurection is an ordinance that can only be performed in the Spirit world. That might have something to do with it too.

[Grandmakabipbip]

I believe that the ME isn't. Without the identity as a family (and the family just keeps going on and one back to Adam) we are nothing.

Christ stated that He would save all His Father gave into His hands. That makes it a necessity to work for everyone to be saved-- and our own salvation is linked to this goal.

[Grandmakabipbip]

If perfect means to be complete-- then I believe family is part of being complete. What is perfect for you?

[Grandmakabipbip]

I guess I should have read your post before posting mine. lol

[Dove]

Hello, Tubaloth,

The first thing I thought of while reading your question was the great intercessory prayer given by the Saviour in John, (John 17) and a shorter version of it in the Book of Mormon. One concept the Saviour talks about in these passages is how He and the Father are one, and how He desires his disciples and all those who accept Him through their testimony to become "one."

I believe the great condition of the celestial kingdom is that we will all become "one." Others on this thread have referred to this as our universal family. In God's eyes, we are all equally important, and part of being filled with the love of Christ is wanting to be with all who will in the eternities...

I had an interesting experience when my cousin was married. At his wedding reception, we found ourselves alone in a room....we began talking to each other a little bit, which doesn't happen very often. It wasn't for very long, but was poignant. Much of my family on my dad's side was there at the reception. I got such a sense of my family on the other side. It was incredible, such a sense of their love and closeness to me. A real sense of being connected to them. I was crying to my other, distant, cousins about it. Again, I felt their love and that connectedness.......

I think it would be incredible to feel this with as many of our "brothers" and "sisters" as possible. On some level, we are all connected to each other. I think it's highly likely we loved and cared for each other with an eternal perspective in the pre-existence. Think about it this way....What if someone very close to you died, say your mother/wife/sibling/etc., and you had no way of being with that person again. Wouldn't that be devastating? Maybe this is the way it is with our ancestors...Imagine not doing their temple work for them while we can, and then realizing as a result, we will never be connected to them with that love through the eternities..... a sobering thought, to me.

[Just_A_Guy]

(Warning: Speculation coming.)

If you assume that deceased people are still able to somehow labor on behalf of--or even occasionally minister to--their living progeny, then wouldn't those spirits' capacity to assist the living be immeasurably increased once they had received the additional power that the Endowment brings?

Also:

Does our lineage as seed of Israel (through Ephraim, or one of the other tribes) contribute to our perfection? How? If so, wouldn't our lineage as a seed of our father, grandfather, great-great grandmother, etc. similarly contribute to our perfection?

[Traveler]

For those that studied the priesthood and RS lesson about Saviors on mount Zion learned that the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the scripture in Malachi about turning the hearts of the children to the fathers that the word “turn” is not as good a representation of the ancient concept as we should have. A much better word would be to seal or to bind the hearts of fathers and children.

The reason that things are sealed or bound is so that they do not get scattered and lost. Many in this generation will find themselves separated from their fathers and forever severed from their posterity because they think marriage is about excluding the honor of your fathers and mothers and failure to sacrifice for your children and seeking only self gratification.

.

The Traveler