Public resistance to church...why?

[MrsAri]

Not as a general rule no. Most of them just want to be left to believe as they will. Is christianity intent on destroying every other faith on the planet outside of christianity?

If the Muslims of whom you speak wish to be left alone, but criticize America for the war in Iraq, what are they doing living in this country? If it's so good in the Middle East, why come to America?

In our religion, our mission is to preach the gospel worldwide. Coming to Christ is the only way to attain world peace. If other religions which are anti-Christian are neutralized in the process, then it is by the hand of the Lord that it is accomplished.

Edited September 16, 2009 by GrandmaAri

[JohnnyRudick]

No I don't consider my self 'right' but I don't go around telling people you have to believe like I do either. I will accept answers based on fact not personal belief. Especially since not everyone believes as you do. There are many religions that say the opposite of you and think you are not on the path of salvation for exactly the same reasons you believe you are right and they are wrong. I don't know what is right and wrong in these situations. I do know that there is not just one way to god and heaven no matter what any one may very egotistically claim.

How do you know that?

[MrsAri]

Originally Posted by Lstinthwrld

No I don't consider my self 'right' but I don't go around telling people you have to believe like I do either. I will accept answers based on fact not personal belief. Especially since not everyone believes as you do. There are many religions that say the opposite of you and think you are not on the path of salvation for exactly the same reasons you believe you are right and they are wrong. I don't know what is right and wrong in these situations. I do know that there is not just one way to god and heaven no matter what any one may very egotistically claim.

--------------------------------------------

Isn't that a very egotistical proclamation?

[JohnnyRudick]

I don't think saying it doesn't meet my standard or requirement is accurate. It should be the standard if you or any christian is stating this is TRUTH then it should be verifiable in by an unbiased source. The points of the bible that are verifiable are secular not religious. The rest of it is personal belief/truth and that is fine and I believe necessary.

I believe things you do not the difference is my beliefs do not require your belief. How dreary would this world be if we all believed the same thing.

Isn't there some reference to a situation like this in revelations?

My issue isn't with christian teachings in general I love Jesus Christ and his message. My issue is with the totalitarian mindset of if you don't believe like we do you are 'lost'. Conform or die.

I cannot and will not believe a man who at the core of his teaching is love would ever have perpetuated a idea as contradictory to his own teaching is as this belief.

We agree on much just not this.

As far as I know God has no wish to say to anyone "convert or die".

If you wish to worship a Cocker Spaniel that is your right to do so. Go for it.

Just hear what I have to say of Jesus and what He has for you first.

Then go your way.

[Lstinthwrld]

How do you know that?

You expect me to answer this when you ignored my questions for your proof?

[Lstinthwrld]

Originally Posted by Lstinthwrld

No I don't consider my self 'right' but I don't go around telling people you have to believe like I do either. I will accept answers based on fact not personal belief. Especially since not everyone believes as you do. There are many religions that say the opposite of you and think you are not on the path of salvation for exactly the same reasons you believe you are right and they are wrong. I don't know what is right and wrong in these situations. I do know that there is not just one way to god and heaven no matter what any one may very egotistically claim.

--------------------------------------------

Isn't that a very egotistical proclamation?

How so?

[Lstinthwrld]

As far as I know God has no wish to say to anyone "convert or die".

If you wish to worship a Cocker Spaniel that is your right to do so. Go for it.

Just hear what I have to say of Jesus and what He has for you first.

Then go your way.

Why do i have you any floor time in my life? What credentials do you hold? What makes me think you have anything right true or more correct than the homeless guy wearing the sandwich board downtown? Why should hear what you have to say about christ and THEN go on my way?

[Lstinthwrld]

If the Muslims of whom you speak wish to be left alone, but criticize America for the war in Iraq, what are they doing living in this country? If it's so good in the Middle East, why come to America?

In our religion, our mission is to preach the gospel worldwide. Coming to Christ is the only way to attain world peace. If other religions which are anti-Christian are neutralized in the process, then it is by the hand of the Lord that it is accomplished.

Christians in general can not even agree how to believe in christ much less convert the world. World peace by christianity...that is a good one funny.

I know the LDS church isn't the christian world at large. Hows the reconciliation with the rlds coming along.

There is a saying about keeping you back yard clean before you criticize your neighbors property.

How about all the christians who criticize the government for the war or the buddhists or the atheists or the...etc etc...if it were a prerequisite for anyone who criticizes the government for its method of governing to leave the country America would be the least populated piece of property in the world. Freedom of speech and opinion is written in the founding documentation of this great country and it is irresponsible for you to even suggest that it does not extend to everyone all the time.

[JohnnyRudick]

Why do i have you any floor time in my life? What credentials do you hold? What makes me think you have anything right true or more correct than the homeless guy wearing the sandwich board downtown? Why should hear what you have to say about christ and THEN go on my way?

I am not ignoring your questions concerning proof.

Others here are doing a very good job of covering that for me.

You choose to ignore them.

The homeless guy down the street may have more authority to speak

for God then you think.

I still tell you that God tells no man to convert or die.

Believe or not believe that is up to you.

But to first believe you must first hear.

If you will not hear, the choice is freely yours.

What you may have known you will never know.

What you may have accomplished you will never accomplish.

Now what is left for you to do?

[Lstinthwrld]

Maybe I do not understand what you are asking. You seemed to want a non-biblical source to corroborate that Jesus said what the gospels have him saying. Obviously there is no such source that we know of. However, the same could be said for many aspect of more ancient history, that we, nevertheless, take is probable. The other truth is that Christians do believe that the Bible is true. So, faith and history get intertwined.

Well, if I'm right, then wouldn't the world be a better place if you believed what I believed? Or, even more basic, if you are right about something, or even are pretty convinced of something, if you have any concern for me at all, wouldn't you let me in on your knowledge? Would you not especially do so if I was espousing something that you knew was wrong?

But what if God does require us to be reconciled to Him? What if He really does expect us to worship him, "in spirit and in truth?" If so, and you knew it, I'd hope you cared enough to share.

I'm more concerned that you refuse to believe a teaching than that you don't. Charles Taze Russell started his religion because he refused to believe in hell. He attacked the doctrine by studying the Bible, predisposed to discredit it. What a way to approach God's word! Today, over 6 million follow his organization.

If you disagree, but seek truth, God can reveal. But if you disagree with God, and refuse to agree, then is it not rebellion?

What I am asking for is proof of this truth that you say is truth fact rock solid 100% the way it is. Proof for something like this should be easy to come up with that no one can refute. Now in order for this proof to be as solid as your belief in your truth it would have to be unbiased with no agenda. There is no proof for any religion that is why it is refered to as faith not fact.

People practice christian, islam, buddhist, jewish, so on and so fortt faith not fact. So if its not fact and you have no unbiased proof how can you expect anyone to take it as absolute fact no refuting it this is the way it is and the only way it can be?

[Lstinthwrld]

I am not ignoring your questions concerning proof.

Others here are doing a very good job of covering that for me.

You choose to ignore them.

The homeless guy down the street may have more authority to speak

for God then you think.

I still tell you that God tells no man to convert or die.

Believe or not believe that is up to you.

But to first believe you must first hear.

If you will not hear, the choice is freely yours.

What you may have known you will never know.

What you may have accomplished you will never accomplish.

Now what is left for you to do?

The whole if you dont believe in salvation through christ you will suffer spiritual death burn in a lake of fire etc.. is in the bible.

[Lstinthwrld]

I am not ignoring your questions concerning proof.

Others here are doing a very good job of covering that for me.

You choose to ignore them.

The homeless guy down the street may have more authority to speak

for God then you think.

I still tell you that God tells no man to convert or die.

Believe or not believe that is up to you.

But to first believe you must first hear.

If you will not hear, the choice is freely yours.

What you may have known you will never know.

What you may have accomplished you will never accomplish.

Now what is left for you to do?

Listen I spent a large part of a decade in an eastern orthodox monastery and seminary I have studied with some of the holiest men christianity has to offer. I am currently a certified minister and chaplin. I have heard and hear just don't agree with absolutism or totalitarian b.s. I can show you diplomas and certificates that took many many years of both secular and religious education.

So noe lets see yours.

[JohnnyRudick]

The whole if you dont believe in salvation through christ you will suffer spiritual death burn in a lake of fire etc.. is in the bible.

God does not tell any man to convert or die.

I do not care what you have read where or when.

I do not care what degrees you may hold.

The statement was that you said that God want us to convert or die and you think we believe He said this through His Son.

I tell you by the Authority of the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood

that God tells no man to "convert or die".

I say this to you in the Name of His Son, Jesus Christ. Amen

[bytebear]

Did Peter and the other apostles have fancy diplomas from religious institutions. Or did Jesus kind of make fun of those people for their learning but lacking spiritual insight.

[JohnnyRudick]

The whole if you dont believe in salvation through christ you will suffer spiritual death burn in a lake of fire etc.. is in the bible.

I still tell you that God tells no man to "convert or die".

When I say "Go your way"

What I mean by that is that You will not be put to death but you may freely choose to not convert or even believe, but you may just turn around and freely go on your own way.

It was not my intent to be high minded

[FunkyTown]

I take your challenge. I would like to see these credentials.

We have offered proof and you said they must be given by Men who were not of Faith.

This is silly - If they had proof of God, but chose not to listen, then you would be listening to men of Satan. You do not have the authority you claim. You do not have what you suggest.

Instead, I quote again to you:

Proverbs 26:4-5.

You ask for proof, then say you will countenance no proof. You say you hate the egotism of Christianity for believing it is the one true way when you believe you are solely right in that there are multiple paths to heaven.

I am sorry you feel Christianity is egotistical, but lying about who you are and what you're after is not helping your cause. You have offered to show your credentials.

Show them.

Listen I spent a large part of a decade in an eastern orthodox monastery and seminary I have studied with some of the holiest men christianity has to offer. I am currently a certified minister and chaplin. I have heard and hear just don't agree with absolutism or totalitarian b.s. I can show you diplomas and certificates that took many many years of both secular and religious education.

So noe lets see yours.

[prisonchaplain]

What I am asking for is proof of this truth that you say is truth fact rock solid 100% the way it is. Proof for something like this should be easy to come up with that no one can refute. Now in order for this proof to be as solid as your belief in your truth it would have to be unbiased with no agenda. There is no proof for any religion that is why it is refered to as faith not fact.

People practice christian, islam, buddhist, jewish, so on and so fortt faith not fact. So if its not fact and you have no unbiased proof how can you expect anyone to take it as absolute fact no refuting it this is the way it is and the only way it can be?

You say religion is not absolutely provable. True enough. But, I'd argue you're demanding science from art, and you're hoping to chart, graph, and decipher that which requires at least some mystical discernment. I say I know I am right, and what I have discovered is truth. But, if you are asking me to prove it, only the judgment day will bring that.

[prisonchaplain]

Did Peter and the other apostles have fancy diplomas from religious institutions. Or did Jesus kind of make fun of those people for their learning but lacking spiritual insight.

As much as I agree with the FAITH side of this discussion, and yes, I know, there are those who learn but do not discern, I nevertheless choose to tread lightly in the arena of theological education. It can be rigorous, and there are many who pursue it with great sincerity. IMHO, those who graduate with solid conviction, and yet open ears, minds, and hearts, have been served well by the institutions that trained them. Some conservative schools create zealous advocates, and some liberal ones create learned skeptics...both have failed, imho.

[bytebear]

As much as I agree with the FAITH side of this discussion, and yes, I know, there are those who learn but do not discern, I nevertheless choose to tread lightly in the arena of theological education. It can be rigorous, and there are many who pursue it with great sincerity. IMHO, those who graduate with solid conviction, and yet open ears, minds, and hearts, have been served well by the institutions that trained them. Some conservative schools create zealous advocates, and some liberal ones create learned skeptics...both have failed, imho.

I agree. but I disagree with the premise that one MUST have credentials in order to know the things of God. The Bible is replete with examples to the contrary.

[Lstinthwrld]

I take your challenge. I would like to see these credentials.

We have offered proof and you said they must be given by Men who were not of Faith.

This is silly - If they had proof of God, but chose not to listen, then you would be listening to men of Satan. You do not have the authority you claim. You do not have what you suggest.

Instead, I quote again to you:

Proverbs 26:4-5.

You ask for proof, then say you will countenance no proof. You say you hate the egotism of Christianity for believing it is the one true way when you believe you are solely right in that there are multiple paths to heaven.

I am sorry you feel Christianity is egotistical, but lying about who you are and what you're after is not helping your cause. You have offered to show your credentials.

Show them.

Fine pm your e-mail and i will send you my credentials. Do not accuse me of lying when you have no basis for this accusation. I am after what I say i am just because I cant come to it like you does not mean I am lying. PM me your e-mail i will send you my credentials as well as my spiritual fathers e-mail the seminary contact whatever you like. How dare you accuse me of lying. Christian love on display right here.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Lstinthwrld

[JohnnyRudick]

Can't find the other button:mellow:

Nite all;)

[JohnnyRudick]

Oh, there it is:confused:

It is too late:p

[Lstinthwrld]

Fact of the matter is that after a lot of time and money spent on religious studies both in a church environment and a secular one. The end result for me was a total loss of faith in any religious tradition. Not just christianity. I want faith I want the comfort and certainty of 'knowing' all the answers. I personally believe you cant know with certainty and to believe this is the true church and no one gets to heaven unless they pay the toll and use my bridge is just deluded. Don't get me wrong even with the education and studies and research I have had and done I claim no trumped up 'authority' I want to be able to believe unconditionally. I just don't have the ability to brainwash myself into this. One of my favorite quotes "I believe because it is absurd" Tertullian.

[Lstinthwrld]

You say religion is not absolutely provable. True enough. But, I'd argue you're demanding science from art, and you're hoping to chart, graph, and decipher that which requires at least some mystical discernment. I say I know I am right, and what I have discovered is truth. But, if you are asking me to prove it, only the judgment day will bring that.

Well if we are talking about art as religion why didn't you say so. Makes much more sense now. personally I think i will take Van Gough and reserect his ear. All fall in the brilliant glory of the ear.

I am with mystical discernment it is a huge part of the tradition I come from. Part of it is to reject divine experiences on the grounds that they be delusions from the devil. the orthodox believe its better to reject a truly divine experience rather than to accept one as from god and fall into spiritual delusion. So I agree with you. My point and my issue is you cannot know that this is the only way. You and the rest of christianity may believe it all the way to the end. Does not make it true.

[bytebear]

Fact of the matter is that after a lot of time and money spent on religious studies both in a church environment and a secular one. The end result for me was a total loss of faith in any religious tradition. Not just christianity. I want faith I want the comfort and certainty of 'knowing' all the answers. I personally believe you cant know with certainty and to believe this is the true church and no one gets to heaven unless they pay the toll and use my bridge is just deluded. Don't get me wrong even with the education and studies and research I have had and done I claim no trumped up 'authority' I want to be able to believe unconditionally. I just don't have the ability to brainwash myself into this. One of my favorite quotes "I believe because it is absurd" Tertullian.

Here's the deal. One way or another you will know the truth. You will stand before Christ and the Judgment bar, and you will know. But, for you to gain the blessings now as opposed to later (or never), you have to put out a spiritual effort. You must pray, with faith (your biggest stumbling block), to receive an answer from God. I wish it was as easy to accept as brainwashing. I could just drop my testimony and not accept the truth I have in my heart. But, darn it, that spiritual witness keeps coming back, and reminding me that this is God's truth, So, let the blessings come now. Don't wait.