striving Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 Sorry didn't see your last post before I posted last.... The difference you'll note in the BofM scriptures you posted is that it is not talking about people in China (or wherever) who have never heard the gospel. Read those scriptures again and you will see that they are talking about those who have a knowledge of the gospel and have had many witnesses. Note these phrases.... after ye have known and have been taught all these things ye have had so many witnesses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texaspride Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 You JUST SAID that some people will go to heaven who have NEVER accepted Jesus. THEN you said that Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven. That is a big contradiction. How can it be both?Those who never heard, are different than those who have. And they still wont get their with out Jesus. Very simple. Sounds like we will never get this in agreement so Im not sure if there is further need to continue in this subject. To me it makes perfect since and is not contradictive. It seems contradictive to you. Sometimes people just can never agree on some subjects and I dont want to get into criticalness or anything like that. I enjoy good honest debates where folks seriousely look at both sides with sincerity. But I sence this is not going in that direction. May God Almighty Bless you on your journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striving Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 Okay.... So we agree that everyone needs Jesus to be saved. We also agree that those who have not heard of Jesus on earth still have a chance to be saved. Right? Do you think that those who die without knowing Jesus on earth still have to accept him at some point before being admitted to Heaven to dwell with Him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl62 Posted January 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 Okay.... So we agree that everyone needs Jesus to be saved. We also agree that those who have not heard of Jesus on earth still have a chance to be saved. Right? Do you think that those who die without knowing Jesus on earth still have to accept him at some point before being admitted to Heaven to dwell with Him?Thus allowing for our wonderful doctrine of baptism for the dead.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl62 Posted January 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 I would say at least 99.9 percent of people on this earth have heard the Biblical message of salvation.Over in the eastern countries, I have VERY serious doubts about that figure! IMHO, I think people of eastern countries look at our Christianity in the same way that we look at their eastern religions. I've heard of Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and Islam, but outside of the basic reading and research that I've done for maybe a college religion class or just looking up something out of my own curiosity, I never hardly gave it much more than a milli-second thought, let alone wanting to fully convert. I honestly believe that their attitude towards Jesus Christ is pretty much the same way that our attitude is towards Mohammad. It's just something that's not really emphasised or even brought up much in their everyday lives like Christianity is for us. So, even though they may have simply heard of the name of Jesus Christ, do you still think a loving God would throw these people in an eternal lake of fire all because they couldn't tell you one thing about the Messiah? Why would God allow such a thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striving Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 Me? No of course I do not think that a loving God would throw these people in an eternal lake of fire all because they couldn't tell you one thing about the Messiah. Absolutely not! No, I am just trying to point out the contradiction in evangelical beliefs. They criticize our (LDS) teachings of temple work for the dead and it drives me crazy! They don't look close enough at their own doctrine. They teach that if people die without knowing Jesus here, they still have a chance at salvation. But when do these deceased learn about Jesus? Surely there won't be folks in heaven who have never heard of Jesus. So obviously there has to be some way for them to learn about Him after they are dead right? It just makes sense. I'm not sure why this is so confusing to evangelicals......This issue was a MAJOR reason for my husband's conversion to the LDS church. He (and I) have always felt that a loving God would want all of his children to hear the wonderful message of salvation, regardless of when or where they lived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl62 Posted January 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 Me? No of course I do not think that a loving God would throw these people in an eternal lake of fire all because they couldn't tell you one thing about the Messiah. Absolutely not!No, I am just trying to point out the contradiction in evangelical beliefs. They criticize our (LDS) teachings of temple work for the dead and it drives me crazy! They don't look close enough at their own doctrine. They teach that if people die without knowing Jesus here, they still have a chance at salvation. But when do these deceased learn about Jesus? Surely there won't be folks in heaven who have never heard of Jesus. So obviously there has to be some way for them to learn about Him after they are dead right? It just makes sense. I'm not sure why this is so confusing to evangelicals......This issue was a MAJOR reason for my husband's conversion to the LDS church. He (and I) have always felt that a loving God would want all of his children to hear the wonderful message of salvation, regardless of when or where they lived.Actually Striving, my question was directed towards Texaspride, but that's O.K. At least you and I know that we're both on the same page.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmy- Posted January 15, 2010 Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 No, I am just trying to point out the contradiction in evangelical beliefs. They criticize our (LDS) teachings of temple work for the dead and it drives me crazy! They don't look close enough at their own doctrine. They teach that if people die without knowing Jesus here, they still have a chance at salvation. But when do these deceased learn about Jesus? Surely there won't be folks in heaven who have never heard of Jesus. So obviously there has to be some way for them to learn about Him after they are dead right? It just makes sense. I'm not sure why this is so confusing to evangelicals......This issue was a MAJOR reason for my husband's conversion to the LDS church. He (and I) have always felt that a loving God would want all of his children to hear the wonderful message of salvation, regardless of when or where they lived.Where.. in their doctrine does it say that if people die without knowledge of Jesus that they go to Heaven? I'm fairly sure the normal evangelical response is that "We do not know. However, we'll trust God to be just and kind." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted January 15, 2010 Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 because they couldn't tell you one thing about the Messiah.Who? An evangelical couldn't tell you about the messiah?They teach that if people die without knowing Jesus here, they still have a chance at salvation.I've never heard any evangelical say that. I know that Assemblies of God, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, and Anglicans don't teach that.I'm not sure why this is so confusing to evangelicals..........sounds like it's someone else who is confused..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striving Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Hey Jimmie Dude- Next time try READING the thread before you post..... The Messiah comment was repeated from the post before mine (read and you'll see the context) Both of the evangelicals posting here (texaspride and prison chaplain) said that they believe that those who die without knowing Jesus have a chance at salvation (again, read the thread) I've attended several non-denominational evangelical churches over many years who teach the same. Perhaps BMY or Jimmie may want to actually ANSWER the question instead of taking jabs? Maybe we could have a productive discussion...... What do you both believe on the topic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Hey Jimmie Dude- Next time try READING the thread before you post.....The Messiah comment was repeated from the post before mine (read and you'll see the context)I only asked a question. No need to get worked up or rude about it. Both of the evangelicals posting here (texaspride and prison chaplain) said that they believe that those who die without knowing Jesus have a chance at salvation (again, read the thread) I've attended several non-denominational evangelical churches over many years who teach the same.That is abnormal for evangelicals. My comment still stands.Perhaps BMY or Jimmie may want to actually ANSWER the question instead of taking jabs? Maybe we could have a productive discussion......Maybe you shouldn't be so defensive? Not everyone is out to get you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striving Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Not everyone. Just you, apparently. Why are you bothering to post here when it's clear that you don't want to discuss the topic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Not everyone. Just you, apparently. Why are you bothering to post here when it's clear that you don't want to discuss the topic?I think did post something relevant to the topic; you just decided to ignore it and go into conspiracy theory mode. Two posters on a message board do not represent all of evangelicalism. I would encourage you to engage them on the merits of whatever case they are making, but when you title the thread “Do born again Churches Seriously Believe This” understand that most born again churches do not believe that people get a second chance after their deaths; I even listed major denominations of American Protestantism. Now, are you going to ignore this again? Are you going to regress into your shell and whine about the thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striving Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 I did not start or title the thread. You have indicated what you think others believe, but what do YOU think? Does a farmer in rural China who hasn't heard of Jesus have a chance at salvation? Do they have an opportunity to learn about Jesus after their death? What is your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 but what do YOU think? Does a farmer in rural China who hasn't heard of Jesus have a chance at salvation?Does he have a chance at salvation? Sure, why not. Does he have a chance if he never has faith in Jesus? It doesn’t appear that he does. I think it’s pretty clear that people are justified, that is declared to be members in right standing in covenant with God, by their faith in Jesus. If someone doesn’t have faith in Jesus, it’s pretty hard for me to say that they have been justified. I think it’s clear that not everyone is called into God’s covenant. So if there is a man living in the backwoods somewhere who has never heard, and never hears of Jesus, then it appears that he is not in any kind of covenant with God. I would say that God will still judge such a person fairly. After all, God is the best arbiter of justice. Do they have an opportunity to learn about Jesus after their death? What is your opinion?I don’t see any indication that people have a chance after death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striving Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Thanks for sharing your views! What do you mean by "not everyone is called into God's covenant"? Are you refering to predestination? Do you think that those who are not called into the covenant go to hell? In the LDS faith, we believe that Heavenly Father wants all of His children to return to Him, and we believe that He provides a way for all of His children to hear the message of Christ. One of the most important tenents of our theology is free will. This means the eveyone will have the opportunity to hear the message of Christ's atonement, and choose for themselves if they want to follow Christ or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striving Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Also I wanted to clarify the phrasing you used earlier when you said that LDS believe that people get "second chance" after death. I think that it would probably be more correct to refer to it as a "first chance". There are many, many people who never had the chance to learn of Jesus because of when/where they lived. We believe that God is just, and he will provide a way for them to hear the Gospel, so they can choose for themselves. Will those of us who have the Gospel now, and turn away and reject it, have a "second chance" to repent after death? Probably not. The scriptures say that THIS LIFE is the time to prepare to meet God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 What do you mean by "not everyone is called into God's covenant"? Are you refering to predestination?I mean that not everyone is a member of a covenant relationship with the Creator. And yes, I do believe in election. I don't think everyone is part of the elect though.Do you think that those who are not called into the covenant go to hell?I think those who God does not give grace to are judged on the basis of their works. Do they go to hell? In short, it appears that if someone has not received God’s grace, the result will be “hell”. I put “hell” in quotes because I think many people have a flawed image of it in their minds and I’m just going to highlight that your concept of hell and mine may be slightly different. In the LDS faith, we believe that Heavenly Father wants all of His children to return to Him, and we believe that He provides a way for all of His children to hear the message of Christ. One of the most important tenents of our theology is free will. This means the eveyone will have the opportunity to hear the message of Christ's atonement, and choose for themselves if they want to follow Christ or not.Thanks for the summary of your views. I’m aware of LDS theology in this area and I’m aware that not all Christians see it the same way as a Calvinist like me would. I do think that what I have come to believe is more or less what has been revealed to us. I’m not perfect though, so I imagine I’m wrong on some things here and there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galatians220 Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Where.. in their doctrine does it say that if people die without knowledge of Jesus that they go to Heaven? I'm fairly sure the normal evangelical response is that "We do not know. However, we'll trust God to be just and kind."Those who do not know the Law, in this case, the Gospel, will be judged by their conscience as what Paul said:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: - Romans 2:12-14We do say that it is up to God's mercy because those who have died before the coming of the messiah never heard of the gospel. They never went to heaven but after death:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live....28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. - John 5:28-28 [Before Grace was salvation by law but even so, none of the OT saints were saved (John 3:13, 1:17)]8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. - Ephesians 3:8So what does this say about the unbelieving who knows not the gospel? They will have their chance for if the OT saints who have not heard were given the chance in their grave to hear the Son of God, then the later generations who have not heard whether Jew or Gentile will also get their chance. However, if they have heard of it, did not take the opportunity to learn and believe, they are condemned:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:36 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 I got to thinking the other day about something I heard at a fireside a number of years ago when a General Authority said that from the time of Christ 'til now, approximately 70 billion people will have inhabited the earth. That figure of 70 billion stuck in my head after that talk and what I was wondering is do the Christian religions who teach that unless you accept Jesus as your personal Savior you will really go to an everlasting, literal burning lake of fire where you will be tortured day and night forever and ever? When you think of that figure of 70 billion, can you honestly say AT LEAST HALF of those people will be in such a fiery state, especially since most "born again" style religions teach that the majority will NOT make heaven? DOES THIS MEAN THAT WELL OVER 35 BILLION PEOPLE WILL BE BURNING FOREVER AND EVER???!!!! That's over 5x our earth's total population right now!!! I cannot possibly fathom such a thing as that!!! Also, are all these people in the center of the earth right now, according to what most Christian churches teach? What about the people that lived for 4,000 years before the time of Christ where nothing about a lake a fire was ever taught in the Old Testament? Are they in for a fiery surprise when they die? Just honestly trying to understand all of this. Thanks.What is missing here and vital to the understanding is revelation. It’s interesting that so many of the Born gain churches deny revelation, personal or otherwise. We learn so much about the nature of our Father in heaven from revelation. Your answers are in the writings of modern prophets. What you must remember is that of those 70 billion half would have died under the age of accountability and are thus automatically saved in Christ. Of the 35 billion remaining less than a tenth will have accepted the Gospel and kept their second estate. The rest vicarious work will be carried out for them and a great many more will be saved. Large numbers will inherit the terrestrial and the telestrial kingdoms. The remainder will be sent to outer darkness and suffer eternal punishment. So the numbers that will burn in hell are no way near the numbers these churches claim. Remember also the Lord said that eternal punishment meant His punishment because He was Eternal it may not be for eternity but will most certainly be subject to the mercies of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 It’s interesting that so many of the Born gain churches deny revelation, personal or otherwise.I'm sure there are churches out there who deny all revelation, but this would seem to me to be an extreme minority. Most churches affirm revelation and must do so because revelation for most born again churches is the only way to learn about God. Almost all would agree that the bible is a source of revelation. So it’s inaccurate to say that in most revelation is denied. Many people also DO claim personal revelation with things like, “God impressed this on me…” or “I feel God is really telling me…”. So it’s also inaccurate to say that most born again churches deny personal revelation. That’s simply not true. There are some people who are more open to personal revelation than others and sure, there are people who don’t believe in personal revelation at all today. I’ve also noticed that born-again Christians who engage in polemics against the LDS church are themselves more likely to deny personal revelation, but this seems to me to be a debate tactic and defense mechanism and not a reflection of what average Evangelical-Joe will believe. I could be wrong though, I have no statistics on this; perhaps you do and can show me wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmy- Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 Perhaps BMY or Jimmie may want to actually ANSWER the question instead of taking jabs? Maybe we could have a productive discussion......What do you both believe on the topic?Taking jabs is what I do. It's usually to steer the conversation in a direction that interests me though.. but since you asked so nicely.. I believe that a loving God would not condemn his children for flunking an insignificant math test. Instead he would see it as just another teaching opportunity.. which fits nicely in with my belief that we are here to learn. After all.. what are tests useful for if not to determine how ready we are for the next "grade"..?Tests are not meant to be pass/fail. Think of it more as data mining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 (edited) I'm sure there are churches out there who deny all revelation, but this would seem to me to be an extreme minority. Most churches affirm revelation and must do so because revelation for most born again churches is the only way to learn about God. Almost all would agree that the bible is a source of revelation. So it’s inaccurate to say that in most revelation is denied. Many people also DO claim personal revelation with things like, “God impressed this on me…” or “I feel God is really telling me…”. So it’s also inaccurate to say that most born again churches deny personal revelation. That’s simply not true. There are some people who are more open to personal revelation than others and sure, there are people who don’t believe in personal revelation at all today. I’ve also noticed that born-again Christians who engage in polemics against the LDS church are themselves more likely to deny personal revelation, but this seems to me to be a debate tactic and defense mechanism and not a reflection of what average Evangelical-Joe will believe. I could be wrong though, I have no statistics on this; perhaps you do and can show me wrong.If you say the revelation came from the bible, yes you will get a resounding nod from all but the very extreme, if you say 'I felt being led by God' then few people would disagree with you that God does sometimes communicate with us. But say a living prophet receives modern revelation on a day-to-day basis then you will get a different answer. Say that individual’s can ask God directly about something and receive revelation, like is the Book of Mormon true, or is that person, just called, the right person etc don't be surprised if you see a disrespectful rolling of the eyes Edited January 19, 2010 by Kenny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassistdude4HF Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 (edited) Hey Carl62 ill be happy to answer your questions the best i can. About asking Christ to be your savor and Lord. Lest start with Phillipians 2:9-11 : Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. The word "Lord" comes from the Greek word kurios which means superoir aurthority, God and master. So one day all will confess that Christ is God. We both can agree with Christ's death upon the cross he broke that barrier of sin and made a way for us to be right with Him. We know that salvation only comes from God. lets read Romans 9:5 and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. What does this verse have to do with salvation you may ask. Well once again lest read a bit more of scripture. This time from Pslam 27:1 The Lord is my light and my salvation. As for the etnerall suffering in hell. No iy wont happen because the Bible tells us diffrently. In Revelation 21:4 it says He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever. So hell cannont exist for it is these things. I know its hard to grasp people in hell but remember God did give them a choice and on that day they are judged and they are sent to hell, thats God's desicon not ours who are we to question Him. Edited February 9, 2010 by Bassistdude4HF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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