questions

[bytebear]

Actually the only that DNA testing can do is show whether or not Smith had offspring. It can do nothing at all to show whether or not he was sexually active. As it is, complete DNA testing has only been performed on a few possible offspring - there is nothing definitive.

You may be think that Joseph Smith wives were liars but The Church of Jesus Christ didn't (having solicited and collected and promoted the wives testimonies), nor does the world's best historical authority on Joseph Smith (and other scholarly authorities and I doubt you have any evidence to support your belief - other than you don't want it to be true.

As for your contention that the wives of Joseph Smith were liars - perhaps you should recall that Joseph Smith thought highly enough them that he chose them to wed as part of the new and everlasting covenant, that doesn't make them unable to lie, but we don't have one, or two, or three random accounts - we have 13 such accounts from Joseph Smith's chosen wives, sealed to him.

What could possibly bother you about Joseph Smith having sex with his wives? That's what married people do.

You are correct that DNA can't prove relations, but they can squash rumors, as in the case of Fanny Alger, which is still out there, despite the child not being Smith's.

No, I don;t believe the testimony of the wives of Smith. I think it was a set up to bolster the claims of Young. As did the CoC who still deny it to this day. It really is just a game of he said she said.

I never said the wives weren't sealed to him. Of course they were, some were sealed after he died.

Why do I believe he didn't have sex with them? Because I believe God prepares people with a lesser law before requiring a greater law. It happened with the Mosaic Law, the Word of Wisdom. Even tithing was not strongly encouraged until the 1920s. The Kirkland temple was a preparatory temple, and the full ordinances of the temple were not revealed until the Nauvoo temple was built It's a pattern. And I believe God works within such patterns.

[Dravin]

Not quite. Utah was part of the Mexican territory when the Mormons settled in 1847. The US had no jurisdiction over Utah until 1850, and even then it was simply a territory with Young as governor, so he called the shots. National anti-bigamy laws against the Mormons weren't enacted until 1862 (Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act) and then it was simply a legal battle until 1890 when it was finally denounced by the church.

I think he's referring to Illinois laws concerning bigamy, at least that's how I took it. Joseph Smith and polygamy - FAIRMormon

[Snow]

You are correct that DNA can't prove relations, but they can squash rumors, as in the case of Fanny Alger, which is still out there, despite the child not being Smith's.

No, I don;t believe the testimony of the wives of Smith. I think it was a set up to bolster the claims of Young. As did the CoC who still deny it to this day. It really is just a game of he said she said.

I never said the wives weren't sealed to him. Of course they were, some were sealed after he died.

Why do I believe he didn't have sex with them? Because I believe God prepares people with a lesser law before requiring a greater law. It happened with the Mosaic Law, the Word of Wisdom. Even tithing was not strongly encouraged until the 1920s. The Kirkland temple was a preparatory temple, and the full ordinances of the temple were not revealed until the Nauvoo temple was built It's a pattern. And I believe God works within such patterns.

No - I am not asking about your ideological beliefs or dogma - I am asking if you have any reason based in fact for calling Joseph Smith's wives and now Brigham Young - or whichever prophet you think dishonestly coerced false testimony - liars?

Edited September 18, 2009 by Snow

[Snow]

I think he's referring to Illinois laws concerning bigamy, at least that's how I took it. Joseph Smith and polygamy - FAIRMormon

That's correct. I think I was clear when I said from the beginning.

[Hemidakota]

You don't really believe that was the reason Joseph introduced polygamy, do you?

Yes...unless you can see what lies within the highest order of the Celestial Kingdom, there is no disagreement in this factor.

And, it was the Lord who instituted Polygamy. It is was not illegal seeing it is the Lord who owns this world and not man. If you don't believe this, then take this up with the Savior...I be curious in hearing what was given as a chastisement. :)

Edited September 18, 2009 by Hemidakota

[ehkape]

But did you see why she wanted to send her away? Hagar despised Sarai for not being able to bear children. So it's not that the relationship was wrong it's that those who participated in it did not fulfill their duties.

I never looked at it that way. So, you think if Hagar would have respected Sarai, they would have stayed together? I think I could go along with that. Thanks for the thought.

So if Joseph Smith said God commanded polygamy but was lying that would make him a....false prophet.

or a fallen prophet, yes, why not? Is it impossible? I don't think so. All throughout the D&C we read about warnings given to Joseph to be careful not to fall. DC 3:4 "For although a man may have many arevelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him."

Section 132, the celestial marriage section, says "and in none of these things did he [king David] sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation"(v.39) If David could fall by taking another mans wife, why not Joseph also? A little further down, verse 55 is counsel directed to Emma "if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law." Thats pretty harsh. I wouldn't like to hear that in a revelation myself...

Let's see what history teaches us. The one who was destroyed wasn't Emma, but Joseph - within just a year after officially introducing polygamy. As I understand Emma never agreed with the practice at all and stayed behind when B.Y. and others left Nauvoo. According to the Lords prophesy, she should have been the one destroyed.

Now its up to you to decide, whether or not this revelation came from the Lord.

[ehkape]

maybe I should add to my previous post, that even though David fell, one can still consider his Psalms as scripture.

So if Joseph has fallen at some time in his life, his previous teachings can still be correct.

[thews]

My personal belief is that Joseph Smith introduced the practice in a spiritual form before it took on a tangible form through Brigham Young. There is no proof that Smith has sex with any of his wives, and recently, some of the supposed children of Smith were proven not to be his. So, just as with many other aspects of God's plan, God sends a preparatory period prior to the full blessings of the principle.

FARMs admits Joseph Smith did have sex with at least 8 of his wives.

FARMS Confirms Joseph Smith Had Sex with Nine Wives

FARMS reviewer Gregory L. Smith admits, 71 pages into his 86-page review of George D. Smith's new book, Nauvoo Polygamy: "…but we called it celestial marriage" ("George D. Smith's Nauvoo Polygamy," FARMS Review 20:2, 2008), that Joseph Smith had "conjugal relations" with at least eight women in addition to his first wife, Emma.

[Maya]

Where are the kids? At least he seemed not to have anything wrong with him as he had so many kids with Emma!?

[bytebear]

No - I am not asking about your ideological beliefs or dogma - I am asking if you have any reason based in fact for calling Joseph Smith's wives and now Brigham Young - or whichever prophet you think dishonestly coerced false testimony - liars?

As I said, it's he said she said. It's just a matter of belief. I don't recall the testimony of Young or the women as canon. We know a prophet can be fallible.

[bytebear]

FARMs admits Joseph Smith did have sex with at least 8 of his wives.

FARMS Confirms Joseph Smith Had Sex with Nine Wives

Admits? Or believes? There is a vast difference. There is simply NO PROOF. NONE!

[bytebear]

Where are the kids? At least he seemed not to have anything wrong with him as he had so many kids with Emma!?

There are none. Some that were suspected have proven to be the children of other men. Again, NO PROOF, and in fact, evidence to the contrary.

[Just_A_Guy]

Where are the kids? At least he seemed not to have anything wrong with him as he had so many kids with Emma!?

Most women, I understand, are only fertile for about three--maybe five--days per month. Considering that Joseph's visits to his other wives were scheduled around Emma's generosity (or lack of vigilance) more than his wives' own biological clocks, I think the lack of children is perfectly understandable.

Frankly--we've got sworn statements from women claiming they had sexual relationships. We've got Joseph Smith teaching, in essence, that polygamous males should have sexual relationships with their wives (it isn't only the Book of Mormon that associates polygamy with child-bearing; Joseph himself drew the connection repeatedly). It seems to me that the onus is now on the (for lack of a better term) "platonic-polygamy" theorists to demonstrate that Joseph did not have sexual relationships with women besides Emma.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[bytebear]

Most women, I understand, are only fertile for about three--maybe five--days per month. Considering that Joseph's visits to his other wives were scheduled around Emma's generosity (or lack of vigilance) more than his wives' own biological clocks, I think the lack of children is perfectly understandable.

Do you have ANY historical evidence of this theory?

Frankly--we've got sworn statements from women claiming they had sexual relationships. We've got Joseph Smith teaching, in essence, that polygamous males should have sexual relationships with their wives (it isn't only the Book of Mormon that associates polygamy with child-bearing; Joseph himself drew the connection repeatedly). It seems to me that the onus is now on the (for lack of a better term) "platonic-polygamy" theorists to demonstrate that Joseph did not have sexual relationships with women besides Emma.

Again, the principle, and the practice are not always in conjunction. As was stated earlier, Polygamy did not always produce children. There are MANY instances where wives never had sex with their husbands. Some were sealed long after their child bearing years. Clearly "platonic-polygamy" was more than just a theory. It was practiced.

[Just_A_Guy]

Do you have ANY historical evidence of this theory?

I recall reading accounts from wivesofjosephsmith.org where they women talked about basically having to sneak around with Joseph behind Emma's back. Emma's antipathy towards polygamy is pretty well-known--and, IMHO, hard to explain if she didn't suspect Joseph was having marital relations with at least some of those women.

Again, the principle, and the practice are not always in conjunction. As was stated earlier, Polygamy did not always produce children. There are MANY instances where wives never had sex with their husbands. Some were sealed long after their child bearing years. Clearly "platonic-polygamy" was more than just a theory. It was practiced.

Apologies; I should have been more clear. I didn't mean to suggest that Joseph never practiced platonic polygamy--only that the people who argue that all of Joseph's polygamous relationships were platonic have the weight of evidence stacked against him.

I'm sure you're very well aware that just because a couple never has children, doesn't mean they never had intercourse.

[Snow]

Where are the kids? At least he seemed not to have anything wrong with him as he had so many kids with Emma!?

Well - with the woman he lived with and slept with everyday, he only had 4 that survived. It shouldn't be surprising that thus far offspring from women he did not live with have not been found.

[Snow]

Admits? Or believes? There is a vast difference. There is simply NO PROOF. NONE!

That's untrue. It all depends on how you use the word "proof."

Based on the the testimonies of his wives, the burden of legal proof would likely be met.

On the other hand, your opinion is based, not on any evidence whatsoever, none, simply your wish that it was so.

[bytebear]

I recall reading accounts from wivesofjosephsmith.org where they women talked about basically having to sneak around with Joseph behind Emma's back. Emma's antipathy towards polygamy is pretty well-known--and, IMHO, hard to explain if she didn't suspect Joseph was having marital relations with at least some of those women.

Apologies; I should have been more clear. I didn't mean to suggest that Joseph never practiced platonic polygamy--only that the people who argue that all of Joseph's polygamous relationships were platonic have the weight of evidence stacked against him.

I'm sure you're very well aware that just because a couple never has children, doesn't mean they never had intercourse.

One couple, no, but 27? Of 27 wives and ONLY Emma has kids? Come on... Whose evidence is stacked?

[bytebear]

That's untrue. It all depends on how you use the word "proof."

Based on the the testimonies of his wives, the burden of legal proof would likely be met.

On the other hand, your opinion is based, not on any evidence whatsoever, none, simply your wish that it was so.

Wow, so by that reasoning the anti-Mormon books all must be true, because they are filled with such testimonies.

[Snow]

Wow, so by that reasoning the anti-Mormon books all must be true, because they are filled with such testimonies.

Interesting that you think 13 women (or 8 accepted by FARMS) married to Joseph Smith in the new and everlasting covenant and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that solicited their testimonies are analogous to anti-Mormons.

What's your theory exactly? Did the Church of Jesus Christ threaten them with violence to get them to lie? Did they do it for money - how much money? Did they all coincidentally lie with no cohesion through the vagaries of chance or where they all in collusion?

[Snow]

One couple, no, but 27? Of 27 wives and ONLY Emma has kids? Come on... Whose evidence is stacked?

Oh - now there's a claim I'd like to see you prove. What is your evidence that there are no other children?

[Maya]

Well not been found yet, even though DNA tests have been made to quite a few. It still strikes me very odd!

Not that it would change anything... I been thinking of it that he should have had sex with others as it was Gods law... but Emma , she was abit scarry obstacle yes . I just dont see any proof that really would bee taken in to consideration. ANYONE can get testifies sighned just the way they want.

I think this wont be solved before after... and it really dont change anything. It is also funny to think that BY and others were so open about it and JS "secret". I think he might have had a problem with this law, and I can understand him well... and her. I just have a bad feeling about many women trying to talk to themselves a "better part" in the history of the mormons. I heard that happened too...

Sorry I am an impossible case... I wont believe it untill I hear it from him himself. No kids.. that is just too much coincidences for me as kids seem to ahve no problems in getting kids out of wedlock and just with ONE try!

As for polygamy itself... I may be some of the weird ones as I really dont care. There was polygamy before why not later too? God never said a bad word about polugamy in te OT ONLY when David had Uriah Heep killed He reacted. Without polygamy Abrahams blessings had not reached around the world!

If my DH should have more wifes than me... so be it. Only problem is he thinks he has his hands full with me As for my sister wifes... How could I be so cold and throw my dear siters out from the "higher" states by not allowing pluralmarriage to my DH? Well ofcourse I would be the no 1 wife, who would be heard in every decition!

I dont understand why plural marrriage should be practiced, maybe there is so much to do after this life for women that a couple would get much more done? ONE thing I know is, that it has nothig to do with only satisfying the man, that may be a biproduct though.

[Snow]

ANYONE can get testifies sighned just the way they want.

I think this wont be solved before after... and it really dont change anything.

Really.

"Anyone" can get wives of Joseph Smith to lie about having had spousal relations with their spouse?"

Exactly how would you, for instance, have gotten his wives to sign false affidavits?

[bytebear]

Really.

"Anyone" can get wives of Joseph Smith to lie about having had spousal relations with their spouse?"

Exactly how would you, for instance, have gotten his wives to sign false affidavits?

Oh, I am sure Brigham Young could be very convincing.

[bytebear]

Oh - now there's a claim I'd like to see you prove. What is your evidence that there are no other children?

Well, the evidence I do have, is that every time they do a DNA test on one of these supposed children, the tests come back validating my theory and against your theory.