Temple- Baptism for the Dead question

[omchance]

Hello everyone!

I have a doctrinal question to ask you. As you may already know, I recently became a member and I have been learning additional things about the church. Today I was talking to my missionaries about genealogy and temple and baptisms for the dead. I was raised in a non-LDS home so this sort of thing is really new to me. The missionaries showed me a verse from 1 Corinthians that alludes to baptisms for the dead, so I understand the why the church condones it.... but I am having a hard time making the connection of why the church actually DOES it.

My understanding (put in very plain terms)

Ok, when a person dies without having accepted the word of God, their spirit goes to the spirit world where it stays for a time. During that time, the spirit is told the truth and has the choice to accept or reject the truth. If they accept the truth they go on to the celestial kingdom.... so where does the baptism fit in? If this is a matter of free agency (on the spirit's part), is the baptism necessary or is it just a symbolic way of honoring our ancestors? If a spirit rejects the truth, does it go to outer darkness? And if a spirit is in outer darkness but a descendant is baptized by proxy, can that spirit be redeemed from outer darkness? I am really confused on this... my missionaries tried explaining it to me but they are born and bred LDS kids and so they have never NOT KNOWN about baptism for the dead... kind of like a calculus professor trying to teach a five year old how to add.... the concept is too advanced and my understanding is too basic!

Appreciate your help!

Thanks,

J

[Tarnished]

During that time, the spirit is told the truth and has the choice to accept or reject the truth. If they accept the truth they go on to the celestial kingdom.... so where does the baptism fit in? If this is a matter of free agency (on the spirit's part), is the baptism necessary or is it just a symbolic way of honoring our ancestors? If a spirit rejects the truth, does it go to outer darkness? And if a spirit is in outer darkness but a descendant is baptized by proxy, can that spirit be redeemed from outer darkness?

J

If they accept the truth they must wait for someone to do their work for them before they will be able to enter the celestial kingdom, this is why baptism, and other temple work for the dead is so important. Without their work done for them they can not move on even if they have accepted the gospel. If the spirit rejects the truth then they will not go to outer darkness. Instead I think they will be treated much like someone who has been given the chance here on earth but never believed. They will go to one of the lesser glories but not the celestial kingdom. For a spirit to be in outer darkness they would have to have learned of the gospel, accepted it, known it was true to the point where they had Christ appear to them personally, then after they have a complete witness of the truthfulness of the gospel they would have to deny the gospel and get to a point where they themselves would happily nail Christ to the cross if given the chance. There are few who actually fit into this category. I hope this explanation helps.

[john doe]

Baptism is an earthly ordinance. We believe that anyone who has lived on earth to age 8 or older needs to be baptized to fulfill the commandments just as Jesus was baptized. While people are baptized by proxy, it is still up to the individual to accept or reject that baptism in the afterlife.

[bytebear]

Yeah, your timeline of events is a little off. When you die you go to the spirit world. Those who have accepted Christ go to paradise, but those who either have not heard of Christ or do not accept him are in spirit prison. Only after the second coming when all people are resurrected will we be judged. Part of that judgment will be whether we chose to accept baptism. Those who didn't have an opportunity for baptism during life will have the opportunity to accept a proxy baptism, so it's really important that we give as many people the opportunity as we can. The work must be completed before judgment and people on the other side are waiting for us to do their work for them.

[tubaloth]

If they accept the truth they go on to the celestial kingdom.... so where does the baptism fit in?

To get the Celestial Kingdom we need to have made the Covenant with Christ or Baptism. Because Baptism is a Mortal physical thing, it is done here on earth. When somebody accepts the Gospel in the next life, they then have the chance to accept the Baptism that is done in their behalf. This allows them to have all the blessings that we have (that are members of the church).

If this is a matter of free agency (on the spirit's part), is the baptism necessary or is it just a symbolic way of honoring our ancestors?

I'm guessing you mean when we do it here in their behalf?

The best way to look at it is Jesus Christ and the Atonement. Christ Atoned for my Sins, something I couldn't do. For Baptisms for the dead we do something for others that they couldn't do. It is necessary for those to be able to make the Covenant that we have made with Christ.

If a spirit rejects the truth, does it go to outer darkness?

If a spirit rejects Christ and the Atonement they do go to outer Darkness for a time to suffer for their sins.

And if a spirit is in outer darkness but a descendant is baptized by proxy, can that spirit be redeemed from outer darkness?

No, the spirit already made the choose, and rejected any baptism done for that person. Agency is still there. We do it for them, but they still have the final say in the matter. They wouldn’t go to Outer Darkness (OD) until after they had the Baptism done and offered to them.

If you still need more clarification let us know.

[ferretrunner]

When I asked a similiar question I was told that we need physical bodies to accept some ordinances, like batism and sealings. Since those in spirit won't have their bodies until the ressurection, a proxy is needed on earth.

[deseretgov]

Ok, when a person dies without having accepted the word of God, their spirit goes to the spirit world where it stays for a time. During that time, the spirit is told the truth and has the choice to accept or reject the truth. If they accept the truth they go on to the celestial kingdom.... so where does the baptism fit in? If this is a matter of free agency (on the spirit's part), is the baptism necessary or is it just a symbolic way of honoring our ancestors? If a spirit rejects the truth, does it go to outer darkness? And if a spirit is in outer darkness but a descendant is baptized by proxy, can that spirit be redeemed from outer darkness? I am really confused on this... my missionaries tried explaining it to me but they are born and bred LDS kids and so they have never NOT KNOWN about baptism for the dead... kind of like a calculus professor trying to teach a five year old how to add.... the concept is too advanced and my understanding is too basic!

Appreciate your help!

Thanks,

J

All you need is a bit more understanding of the Plan of Salvation. After people die thier spirits go to a place called the Spirit World. All Spirits go here and stay there until either the First Resurrection or the Second Resurrection. The Final Judgement does not occur until after the resurections. And no one goes to the Celestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom, Telestial Kingdom, or Outer Darkness until after the Final Judgement.

The Spirit World is divided into two parts one is Paradise and the other is Prison. Now remember no Spirit can leave the Spirit World until the ressurections*. But spirits can move between Prison and Paradise. Righteous Spirits in Paradise preach the Gospel to Spirits in Prison. A Spirit in Prison cannot go into Paradise unless they are baptised. So if a Spirit in Prison accepts the gospel and wants to go into Paradise is unable to until they have been baptised. But Spirits are not physical so they cannot be baptised by water. So people with physical bodies must be baptized on their behalf. Thus baptisms for the dead. If a baptism has been performed for someone who is dead. Then that person(as a Spirit) can accept or reject it. If they have accepted the gospel then they probably will accept it. They can then enter into Paradise. If they reject it then they must stay in Prison.

Now what is the significance of Paradise and Prison. Only those people in Paradise qualify to enter the Celestial Kingdom. If you are in Prison you can't enter into the Celetsial Kingdom. The Celestial Kingdom is where God resides and if we wish to return to Him we must go there. Everyone else will go to either the Terrestial Kingdom, Telestial Kingdom, or Outer Darkness.

*Some spirits of the righteous may come to our world on specific missions.

Notes:

The Terrestrial Kingdom is for people who were righteous and good people but they did not accept the Gospel.

The Telestial Kingdom is for everyone else excluding Sons of Perdition.

Outer Darkness is where Satan and his angels reside. This is also where Sons of Perdition go. Just general wicked people will not go to Outer Darkness. Even Hitler won't go to Outer Darkness. For a person to go to Outer Darkness they must, as I said, be a Son of Perdition. For a person to be a Son of Perdition they must have a special witness of Christ and then deny that witness and work against Christ. For example Cain. Cain had a special witness of Christ but he later denied that and followed Satan. If Joseph Smith had rejected Christ after seeing Him and followed Satan he would have been a Son of Perdition. It is generally said the a person must work to go to Outer Darkness and only a handful of people are ever in a position(such as Church leaders) to be able to fall and become Sons of Perdition.

Hopefully that will clear some things up. If you have any more questions just ask.

[Hemidakota]

The bulk of FATHER's children will reside between the Telestial to the Terrestial glory...

Now, where is Chaos or Hell?

[beefche]

Hemi, don't derail this thread. She's a new member and should learn at her pace, not ours.

[Hemidakota]

Hello everyone!

I have a doctrinal question to ask you. As you may already know, I recently became a member and I have been learning additional things about the church. Today I was talking to my missionaries about genealogy and temple and baptisms for the dead. I was raised in a non-LDS home so this sort of thing is really new to me. The missionaries showed me a verse from 1 Corinthians that alludes to baptisms for the dead, so I understand the why the church condones it.... but I am having a hard time making the connection of why the church actually DOES it.

My understanding (put in very plain terms)

Ok, when a person dies without having accepted the word of God, their spirit goes to the spirit world where it stays for a time. During that time, the spirit is told the truth and has the choice to accept or reject the truth. If they accept the truth they go on to the celestial kingdom.... so where does the baptism fit in? If this is a matter of free agency (on the spirit's part), is the baptism necessary or is it just a symbolic way of honoring our ancestors? If a spirit rejects the truth, does it go to outer darkness? And if a spirit is in outer darkness but a descendant is baptized by proxy, can that spirit be redeemed from outer darkness? I am really confused on this... my missionaries tried explaining it to me but they are born and bred LDS kids and so they have never NOT KNOWN about baptism for the dead... kind of like a calculus professor trying to teach a five year old how to add.... the concept is too advanced and my understanding is too basic!

Appreciate your help!

Thanks,

J

We need to understand, both the Spirit Prison and Paradise are only a veil apart, located here on this earth. Outer darkness is not even in this universe as we know it. Why? Outer darkness is also considered chaos, absent of the Spirit, which emanates from the GODs. There is no space in this universe where the Spirit is not felt, from the lesser to the greater. As we will find something very important at the center of this precious universe – where everything does gravitates. There is no Spirit in chaos or outer darkness. Then, what does happen to those souls who are perdition after the allotted space of time is forefill as to their torment?

Turning to Alma chapter 40:6–7 it reads -

6 Now there must needs be a space betwixt the time of death and the time of the resurrection.

7 And now I would inquire what becometh of the souls of men from this time of death to the time appointed for the resurrection?

We see here, Alma asks the common question found today. What happens to those who die? Where do these spirits go? We know, the physical body goes into the grave and decays back to their natural elements — inert matter [lifeless intelligence] - but what becomes of the spirit? We should be grateful, for our modern day prophets who were not silence in revealing truths given by the Godhead on this subject. Reading many revelations concerning the next stage of life, our inspired leaders have removed the mysteries, to include fear from death.

As already stated in several posts, when we die, the spirit goes into a spiritual world.

"The earth itself and the living things on the earth have spirit counterparts that existed before the physical creation, and a living soul consists of a spirit body united with a physical body. This spirit existence, where living things are composed of organized, refined spirit matter, extends beyond the human family and includes animals and plants. Little is revealed about plant spirits beyond the fact that all living things, including plants, were created as spirits before they were created with physical bodies (Moses 3:5, 9).

It is revealed to us today, human and animal spirits are living, active, intelligent beings and that spirits do not need physical bodies for existence after this mortal probation. We gather also from Moses, spirits exist before mortality as well as afterward, there is both a premortal and a postmortal spirit world. If one looks at these realms, one can deuce by reading here, only Celestial Beings really require resurrected bodies in order to have increase, to create, and keep all intelligences in check. Part of receiving this resurrected body of glory is ‘honor’, or the authority and power of GOD.

We can analyze, our entry into the spirit world by death is much like our entry into the mortal world through birth. In both entrances, our spirit leaves a familiar environment and goes to one that is new and unfamiliar. We leave loved ones behind. But other loved ones await us; people who knew us before and who are anxious to greet us again, to love us. In summary, we are born, we take a mortal body, when we die, we leave that body behind until it is needed again for our salvation.

Death itself brings about subjection to that state assigned. President Joseph F. Smith called this state a "partial judgment" of our mortal works. This judgment determines whether we will be sent to paradise or to spirit prison, the two divisions of the spirit world. He wrote -

"The spirits of all men, as soon as they depart from this mortal body, whether they are good or evil, we are told in the Book of Mormon, are taken home to that God who gave them life, where there is a separation, a partial judgment, and the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness which is called paradise. . . . The wicked, on the contrary, have no part nor portion in the Spirit of the Lord, and they are cast into [spirit prison], being led captive, because of their own iniquity, by the evil one." (Smith, Gospel Doctrine, page 448)

[beefche]

deseret gave a good summary. Here's some info from lds.org

Jesus Christ taught that baptism is essential to the salvation of all who have lived on earth (see John 3:5). Many people, however, have died without being baptized. Others were baptized without proper authority. Because God is merciful, He has prepared a way for all people to receive the blessings of baptism. By performing proxy baptisms in behalf of those who have died, Church members offer these blessings to deceased ancestors. Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in their behalf.

Here's the website at lds.org where you can search for scriptures, talks, and other information to learn more about it on your own.

[pam]

Beefche, once again you beat me. I, too, was just going to say deseretgov explained it very well.

[Hemidakota]

Hemi, don't derail this thread. She's a new member and should learn at her pace, not ours.

Never assume what you think is her level of understanding. Even Mother of Christ always ponder and kept those teachings on what was given by her son. Why? Eventually, the Spirit will guide her to the understanding what was taught in the past as she will eventually receive an epiphany on what was given.

[pam]

Point taken Hemi..but in her OP she said she had a very "basic" knowledge. So I can see where Beefche is coming from.

[Hemidakota]

There is over 107 Ensign article dealing with 'Baptism for the Dead'; a few are listed here for your viewing -

Why Mormons Build Temples

A Voice of Gladness

I Have a Question

Salvation for the Dead

The Savior’s Visit to the Spirit World

The Spirit of Elijah

Gospel Classics: A Temple-Motivated People

First Presidency Message A Temple-Motivated People

Line upon Line

Peter's Letters: Progression for the Living and the Dead

Insights

Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity

Beyond the Veil: Two Latter-day Revelations

Message from the First Presidency: Salvation Universal

Young Adults and the Temple

The Unfolding Restoration of Temple Work

I Have a Question

The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: Priesthood, the Word of God, and the Temple

Uniting Generations

Or basic questions are given here: Mormon.org - Home

[pam]

Thanks for the resources.

[beefche]

Never assume what you think is her level of understanding. Even Mother of Christ always ponder and kept those teachings on what was given by her son. Why? Eventually, the Spirit will guide her to the understanding what was taught in the past as she will eventually receive an epiphany on what was given.

I completely agree with you, but answering a question with a deep doctrine question is not a good way to teach. Provide her with answers and then link to resources so she can study and learn at her pace. I found on my mission that when I thought someone was ready for something beyond our lessons (I used the other missionary discussions--the 6 discussions pamphlets), I was typically wrong. I have to remember how I felt as a new member.

Thanks for the resources--you're very knowledgeable and your help in looking up resources is what I was hoping for.

[Hemidakota]

No problem...

Going back to your statement, "but answering a question with a deep doctrine question is not a good way to teach.", I need to remind GOD and the Savior who did this to me thirty years ago [ ] ...most of which is now understandable. See the point? This is the same teaching method what the FATHER and the Son will do at times. Present it for now but wait for the moment of maturity to understand it later. Our edification is then increase.

But you are right though, the brethren will only teach basics teachings only to the Saints. My bad....