Issue with Baptisms for the Dead..

[bytor2112]

Accepting the Gospel in the after-life (going through proxy-baptism, etc) isn't enough?

That doesn't sound right to me. Seems like a bum deal. For example.. my entire family (every single person, extended family included) with the exception of myself is going to be forced to not be a part of a family and to live alone? What incentive is there to do my temple work?

It seems to me that the the saying "Families are forever" really means "Some families can be forever"?

Why will they be "forced"? I mean this respectfully, my mother rarely attends and smokes.......but she has to work out her salvation just as we all must......just as Christ did. The choices we make in life determine where we will end up or perhaps more appropriately who we become.

Edited September 30, 2009 by bytor2112

[Hemidakota]

Jesus Christ will be the final judge. He will know of their life circumstances, he will know the desires of their heart. He will make the final decision. Many have already accepted the gospel and are waiting and begging us to do their work for them.

Exactly...

[Hemidakota]

Thankfully. I'm not so much concerned with those who had no knowledge of the gospel.. I'm more worried about the average person (my family, truthfully) who goes to church sometimes, etc.

I think the part that trips me up is the "knowledge" of the gospel -- what exactly does that consist of? As you've said.. that's probably one of the areas where "trust" should come into play.

Going to church sometimes doesn't prevent someone from entering the Celestial Kingdom. Unless we know the exact circumstances of people lives and could read their thoughts.

Having knowledge of the gospel is another word for testimony of such.

[Hemidakota]

Baptism for the dead services two purposes.

1. Those that never heard the Gospel, after hearing it can now be Judged as if they heard it during there life. They gain the blessings of The Atonement.

2. Those that heard the gospel but didn't accept it for what ever reason. There second chance to accept Christ and his Atonement comes in the spirit world. These are the ones that would go to the Terrestial Kingdom. The reason we do Baptisms for the dead is because they have in a way finally accepted Christ.

Those in the Telestial Kingdom (lowest) are those that never accept Christ and are never Baptised. They are left to suffer for there own sins. They are ressurected but thats about the extent of there blessings.

Not doing Baptisms for the dead would then leave your family into the Telestial kingdom which isn't nice.

The key is we chart a course in the life. If we are heading towards Celestial Kingdom then thats the direction we well keep going after this life.

There is more here that is not being told by the Savior in doing baptism for the dead, beside what you have stated here. Even I want to know the end results after this world and those moving forward beyond the Celestial realm.

We are told, the works will be done for all men except those who are perditions. Why? I can assume here or take an educational guess but having knowledge of such is not given on these topics with doing the works for all children as stated and the definition of the infinite atonement and on how infinite is it? All I do know by listening to the promptings of the Spirit, these two are inseparable.

[Hemidakota]

Elder Bruce R. McConkie stated in his book called 'Mormon Doctrine' -

Those attaining a terrestrial kingdom will be inheritors of terrestrial glory which differs from celestial glory "as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament." (D. & C. 76:71; 1 Cor. 15:41.) In effect they bask, as does the moon, in reflected glory, for there are restrictions and limitations placed on them. They "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father" (D. & C. 76:77), and to all eternity they remain unmarried and without exaltation. (D. & C. 132:17.)

In the Doctrine of Covenants section 76, it states the following -

54 Behold, these are they that have died without law;

The heathen of ages that never had hope,

And those of the region and shadow of death,

The spirits in prison, that light has brought up.

55. To spirits in prison the Savior once preach'd,

And taught them the gospel, with powers afresh;

And then were the living baptiz'd for their dead,

That they might be judg'd as if men in the flesh.

56. These are they that are hon'rable men of the earth;

Who were blinded and dup'd by the cunning of men:

They receiv'd not the truth of the Savior at first;

But did, when they heard it in prison, again.

57. Not valiant for truth, they obtain'd not the crown,

But are of that glory that's typ'd by the moon:

They are they, that come into the presence of Christ,

But not to the fulness of God, on his throne.

Joseph Smith answered Williams W. Phelps over this matter with Paul statement concerning the Three Degrees of Glory and received the following vision; which is now called D&C section 76

Paul ascended into the third heavens, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob's ladder—the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter. I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them.

The Lord deals with this people as a tender parent with a child, communicating light and intelligence and the knowledge of his ways as they can bear it. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols. 5:402)

Alvin Dyer had added this about those who will inherit the Terrestial Glory -

"Many noble and great bodies will possess this kingdom, receiving to an extent the glory of God as administered by the Son, but not of a fulness. These, for the most part, will be men who, during earth-life existence, sought the excellence of men; and some who gave of their time, talents and endeavor to the ways of man-made ideals of culture, science, and education, but thought not to include God and his ways in their search for a complete life. They received more of the Spirit of the world and of the wisdom which men teacheth, and, yet, are just men, however, neglecting that spirit which is of God." (Alvin R. Dyer, Who Am I</B>?, pp. 552-53.)

Last, Elder McConkie gave a greater clarity of his thoughts of those who are members of the church and were not valiant in their testimonies -

"Members of the Church who have testimonies and who live clean and upright lives, but who are not courageous and valiant, do not gain the celestial kingdom. Theirs is a terrestrial inheritance. Of them the revelation says, 'These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.' (D&C 76:79.) . . . Now what does it mean to be valiant in the testimony of Jesus? It is to be courageous and bold; to use all our strength, energy, and ability in the warfare with the world: to fight the good fight of faith. . . . The great cornerstone of valiance in the cause of righteousness is obedience to the whole law of the whole gospel.

"To be valiant in the testimony of Jesus is to 'come unto Christ, and be perfected in him'; it is to deny ourselves 'of all ungodliness,' and 'love God' with all our 'might, mind and strength.' (Moro. 10:32.) To be valiant in the testimony of Jesus is to believe in Christ and his gospel with unshakable conviction. It is to know of the verity and divinity of the Lord's work on earth.

"But this is not all. It is more than believing and knowing. We must be doers of the word and not hearers only. . . . To be valiant in the testimony of Jesus is to 'press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men.' It is to 'endure to the end.' (2 Nephi 31:20.) It is to live our religion, to practice what we preach, to keep the commandments. It is the manifestation of 'pure religion' in the lives of men; it is visiting 'the fatherless and widows in their affliction' and keeping ourselves 'unspotted from the world.' (James 1:27.)

"To be valiant in the testimony of Jesus is to bridle our passions, control our appetites, and rise above carnal and evil things. It is to overcome the world as did he who is our prototype and who himself was the most valiant of all our Father's children. It is to be morally clean, to pay our tithes and offerings, to honor the Sabbath day, to pray with full purpose of heart, to lay our all upon the altar if called upon to do so.

"To be valiant in the testimony of Jesus is to take the Lord's side on every issue. It is to vote as he would vote. It is to think what he thinks, to believe what he believes, to say what he would say and do what he would do in the same situation. It is to have the mind of Christ and be one with him as he is one with his Father." (Bruce R. McConkie, Ensign, </B>November 1974, pp. 33-35.)

If anyone here can patternize their own lives on what is given, I would exhort you to change your ways before your days of probation ends. This would be hell for them who had the opporunity to receive the Celestial Glory and its ressurected bodies than to suffer themselves being outside of GOD presences.

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[pam]

Going to church sometimes doesn't prevent someone from entering the Celestial Kingdom. Unless we know the exact circumstances of people lives and could read their thoughts.

Having knowledge of the gospel is another word for testimony of such.

My first thought was of part member families..where one spouse may have to make choices for harmony of the marriage. Sometimes it is beyond their control even though the intent and want is in their hearts.

[bytor2112]

The pathway to Eternal Life is clearly marked. Making and keeping all sacred covenants and enduring till the end.......

This scripture sums it up nicely I think:

Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

Edited September 30, 2009 by bytor2112

[rameumptom]

My reading of the section in D&C 76 is those who have had a chance to truly hear the gospel, reject it, and then accept it in the Spirit World, may not end up Celestial.

Now, what does it mean to really have a chance? Is watching a Mormon Ad on television count? If you say "no thanks" to the missionaries when they tract your door count?

If you've had the discussions, but never had an opportunity to pray about it sincerely, is that a chance? What if you did pray sincerely, but the Spirit did not show up at that moment, is that a chance?

I think we sometimes read too much stricture and structure into the holy writ. The key is, God wishes to maximize the glory he gives to each of his children. Each will be judged according to their true desires and what they would have done in this life, had they the complete chance to hear the gospel and accept it.

[pam]

Again I think it comes down to the time when we stand in front of Jesus Christ for judgement, he will know all our circumstances and thoughts and intents.

[Just_A_Guy]

Those in the Terrestrial Kingdom "will live separately and singly forever".

I realize it's in a Church-published material, but let's think about this for a minute.

Does that mean that the Terrestrial Kingdom is basically an eternity in solitary confinement?

Or does it mean that in the Terrestrial Kingdom you can see other people, but are somehow specifically barred contact with those who were your family members during this life?

Or could it, perhaps, mean that you still see these people--but in some way, your relationship with them will be qualitatively different than it would be had you both attained a Celestial glory?

Personally, I lean towards the third option. The first option would be hell even for an introvert like me, and the second option strikes me as unnecessarily cruel.

[zippy_do46]

ok guys lol I think it is getting too deep for me I think I am going to go work on my Nursery Lesson. Something about making it simple and not over thinking things seems to be calling my name :0)

[rameumptom]

This does seem a bit maddening for those who are not born-in-the-covenant type members. There are so many who are in the situation you are describing.

I don't read the gospel as saying people will be alone or not in families, if they are not exalted. I read it that families will continue, even in the lower kingdoms, but somewhat differently. There will not be eternal progression, or continuing progeny/seed.

But D&C 76 tells us that those in the higher kingdoms will be able to descend and minister to those in the lower kingdoms. I see this as evidence that the family structure continues.

Pres Packer and Pres Faust have also stated that those who keep their covenants as best they can and teach their kids, will have their kids with them in the eternities, even if they stray here. How? I believe by allowing families to still be families, even if spread across the kingdoms of glory.

[ferretrunner]

Pam quoted this earlier: Spirit prison is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances of salvation that are performed for them in temples (see D&C 138:30–35). Those who accept the gospel may dwell in paradise until the Resurrection. After they are resurrected and judged, they will receive the degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81–85).

__________________

Doesn't that sentence imply that they could go to the Celestial Kingdom if they had lived that type of lifestyle? I'm thinking people like Mother Theresa.... Hard to imagine her anywhere else. Or even good, decent people of other religions who truly followed what they thought was right.

[bmy-]

I don't read the gospel as saying people will be alone or not in families, if they are not exalted. I read it that families will continue, even in the lower kingdoms, but somewhat differently. There will not be eternal progression, or continuing progeny/seed.

That's why (in the original post) I mentioned that I question the interpretation. The source they give is.. D&C 131:1-4.. this is the passage.

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood;

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

Where do those verses state anything that even resembles the claim that "They will not be part of eternal families; they will live separately and singly forever"? It appears to be a stretch to me -- at best. Are there any other verses in support of this articles claim?

(How would I go about asking them to edit this misleading statement.. if there is no other scriptural evidences backing up their claim)

Edited October 2, 2009 by bmy-

[Just_A_Guy]

That's why (in the original post) I mentioned that I question the interpretation. The source they give is.. D&C 131:1-4.. this is the passage.

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood;

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

Where do those verses state anything that even resembles the claim that "They will not be part of eternal families; they will live separately and singly forever"? It appears to be a stretch to me -- at best. Are there any other verses in support of this articles claim?

(How would I go about asking them to edit this misleading statement.. if there is no other scriptural evidences backing up their claim)

The "separately and singly" phrase comes from D&C 132:17.

[rameumptom]

The "separately and singly" phrase comes from D&C 132:17.

Which means they will not be eternally together in an exalted marriage, being gods and having eternal increase.

This does not mean there will not be family-like structures in the Telestial or Terrestrial worlds. In fact, given that God is all about family and loves his children so much that he is willing to send his Only Begotten to die for them, it doesn't seem right that he would preclude such a blessing to them. They just don't get the added blessing of godhood and eternal increase.

[Hemidakota]

I do agree…it is always about the family unit, brothers and sisters being together, and what draws humans together – not being alone. Even when children of the FATHER are raise with resurrected bodies of glory, it will vary in degree of glory pertaining to each kingdom. The bodies of the Celestial are differ from those who inherit the lesser glory – Telestial and Terrestrial. No doubt, a Celestial Being in its glory, will need to overcome those who they may come too in giving furthe instruction to the lesser kingdoms. Joseph Smith received revelations regarding the degrees and the resurrected bodies obtaining of each -

16. And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.

17. And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.

18. Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;

19. For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;

20. That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.

21. And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

22. For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. (Revelation received Dec. 27/28, 1832; the "olive leaf message of peace") D&C 88:15-22

The question always remain as some of brethren mentioned years ago, why would GOD send HIS Son and assigned Celestial Angels [lesser portion of the Celestial glory] to the Terrestrial glory when there is no further advancement between glories?

Basing on past comments from the brethren, there are two plausible meaning: 1] to advance those in the lower Terrestrial order to its highest order within, or 2] advancement comes later a person gain access to the lower order of the Celestial glory.

Either way, all those who have been given the ultimate Celestial reward have aleady moved on to the next state.

[bmy-]

The "separately and singly" phrase comes from D&C 132:17.

"Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world."

It looks like it's specifically speaking of those who only enter into civil marriages though. Those who do enter into 'temple marriages' but are not valiant will also be in the Terrestrial kingdom. It's becoming clear that this is just a poorly written (piece of the) article and effectively a 'scare tactic' much like those that are seen by some evangelicals.

Hemi -- I've come to realize that our eternal progression never stops.. and that there is indeed progression through the kingdoms in one form or another (forward and backwards, I believe). I've always been a fan of doing it right the first time though.

[LDSVALLEY]

Those who have never had the chance to have the gospel are not bound to the same restrictions as those who have rejected it so many many of our family still have the chance for the highest of kingdoms.

Who determines what really is considered the line between Celestrial and lower kingdoms? Heavenly Father- we on Earth are bound by an earthly understanding while here he is following a vastly larger and more accurate understanding.

None of my family outside my wife and kids are members maybe they will be with me maybe they won't that is for the Lord to figure out not me. But I know how i'll feel if I don't do the work when I am able and when on the other side find they are stuck because of what I did not do for them.

Also our actions and desires to serve the Lord have a saving effect on those we love as well. If Heavenly Father really loves each of us don't you think he'll do all he can to bless us for our devotion?

I don't have the full answer but I know I have felt someone with me on occasion when I have gone through the temple for non family names so there is some good reason those on the other side still want the work done. I'll just have to wait until I'm there to fully understand why.

[missgirl]

We tend to think in man's terms. We forget that ONLY Heavenly Father KNOWS who has officially rejected the offer of the gospel in this life. I am a convert, and many of my family have not accepted the gospel yet in this life, and many have died without baptism, but I KNOW in my heart, and the spirit has born witness to me that they have not been penalized for it. Many have grown up with incorrect traditions and in an environment that has not been condusive to learning the gospel... Just as the Lamanites were not punished for the incorrect traditions of their fathers, and the Lord was merciful to them. The Lord will be merciful to those who did not have the OPPORTUNITY to accept it in this life.

That does not mean that they did not "hear something of the gospel in this life".. That means that they were not yet prepared... We can NEVER FULLY KNOW who is prepared and has REJECTED IT or has simply not been succored enough by the spirit to receive it. Your feelings are correct. God is NOT unjust. He WILL prepare a way for all of his children to understand, and THEN decide... They must KNOW what they are rejecting in order to be accountable. In other words, they must have a testimony and reject it to be denied entrance into the Celestial Kingdom of God. God is that MERCIFUL... Think of little children.. Do we punish them for what they do not know?? Wouldn't that be unfair.... God is true & just & merciful. He will prepare the way. We just need to be good missionaries, and love those around us and those who have gone before by doing the work for them in the temples. The Lord will do the rest in the spirit world for them... and YES they CAN enter into the Celestial Kingdom of GOD.

[Guest]

I apologize, I didn't read past the OP. I just wanted to say this before I go out on a date with my precious family...

If the people who died without getting baptized on this earth cannot attain eternal families, then why do Sealings for the dead?

Think about it...

[bmy-]

I apologize, I didn't read past the OP. I just wanted to say this before I go out on a date with my precious family...

If the people who died without getting baptized on this earth cannot attain eternal families, then why do Sealings for the dead?

Think about it...

Which is why I started this thread. The article is mistaken or at the least the verse is poorly interpreted IMO.

[Obadiah]

In order for a person to have had an opportunity to receive the gospel, he or she must have

• Been taught in their own language
• Understood the message of the gospel
• Felt the Spirit confirm it's truth

and

My reading of the section in D&C 76 is those who have had a chance to truly hear the gospel, reject it, and then accept it in the Spirit World, may not end up Celestial.

Now, what does it mean to really have a chance? Is watching a Mormon Ad on television count? If you say "no thanks" to the missionaries when they tract your door count?

It is my understanding the scripture is to be read from these perspectives. I would add the complexity of the Lord's task is beyond our comprehension. What is our understanding of what it means to exist? This is not a trite philosophical question but is at the heart of this matter. Back in the 1940s an apostle did something for which he was excommunicated. Over a period of years he was able to return to full fellowship in the Church. Let isolate those times into two blocks and a series of propositions.

1. What if he died before he committed the act for which he was excommunicated and this hypothetical apostle would not have sinned and not repented had he lived?

2. We know the apostle sinned. His error was gross enough the Lord wiped his name from the scroll. Yet, at some point in our time, the apostles repentence was sufficient to the end and the Lord was willing to accept him back into the fold. What if the apostle had died just a fraction of a second before his repentance was complete?

We know these circumstances occur because the spirit 'prison' exists to 'process' individuals who did not get to fully repent. In the first instance, would he have dodged a bullet? He had lived the life of a person in full fellowship and approval, but if he had lived he would not and would have been cast out forever. Is there anything inherently different about the sinner who died before he could commit that 'final' sin? No. He is still the same person.

In the second case, did his premature death prevent him repenting and recovering his lost standing? In terms of the infinite, what was substantially different about this individual between the two moments in time between when he was 'lost' and when he 'would have' been saved? What did existence mean to this man?

This question is the basis for the Protestant rational behind the 'once-saved-always-saved' doctrine.

Let us step back from this question a little. The Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, page 322 gives a fascinating application of time in terms of Einstein's theories of relativity (addressing D&C 130). We also read that it is given unto man (section 121) time according to his works. Theoretical Physicists agree that mathematically it is possible that all possible events happen simultaneously. They hypothesize the existence of Multiverse's in which each of us exists going down slightly different paths created by mathematical anomalies.

My point is not to suggest this is the way 'reality' really works, but to say the Plan of Salvation in its entirety is, as Jesus taught both in all the Standard Works, vastly different from the 'milk' of the gospel as we know it. Remember, Joseph Smith told Brigham Young he could tell him gospel truths that would drive him away from the Church (Brigham Young told him 'then don't tell me'). I suspect we are revealed enough to accomplish our work here on Earth, not to complicate the work. In terms of the individual judgment relative to the question posed by this thread, we do not know the complete history or circumstances under which the judgment will occur. It is my opinion the Lord is infinitly more forgiving than what we infer from scripture.

One more point. It is taught that all creatures will rise to the fullness of the measure of their creation. The Brothers and Sisters who go to the other Kingdoms of Glory go there because that is where they will be happiest, where they fit, and they will recognize this and be ok with it. These are all 'Glories' of our Heavenly Father. He will never send someone to a Heaven for which a person is unfit.

Finally,

You might say that it parallels the "unpardonable sin." Those who receive a perfect and sure knowledge of the Atonement and the existence of God and the reject it are condemned Outer Darkness. On a lesser scale, those who receive a spiritual witness to the truth of the Gospel and reject it are condemned to something less than Celestial glory. Those who haven't had the full opportunity to accept it aren't held to that same standard.

I would respectfully disagree with you here. As you said, the 'unpardonable sin' is a violation of the Holy Spirit when faith has developed and been replaced by a sure knowledge of the plan of salvation. Very very very few people have a sure knowledge of God. While condemned is used in scripture, I think it should be understood in terms I have described previously. The Lord will not punish us for all eternity for an error of a mere moment in time. He will, however, create a mansion in his Heaven where we will be able to grow into the full measure of our creation.

[glow_inthe_dark_girl]

Yes -- it's backed up by doctrine -- but I question the interpretation. Does this say (like it sounds) that those who do not accept the gospel during this mortal probation (Ex: The overwhelming majority of people around us) are destined for the Terrestrial kingdom?

So what it boils down to.. is why bother with performing Baptisms for the Dead if they are not allowed to be part of eternal families? Is it just so they go to the Terrestrial kingdom instead of the Telestial?

It's late.. and I hope I read this wrong.

I always had this doubt/question in mind , specially after reading this scripture. but then I foirgot about it.

it sounds kind of discouraging but I dont know

[bytor2112]

It is my opinion the Lord is infinitly more forgiving than what we infer from scripture.

I completely agree. Infinitely.........and how thankful I am.