A shot across the bow

[Universeman]

My dad is an atheist and yet some how I have managed to balance his way of looking at the universe without a god with my conviction that there is indeed one. I am currently working towards a BS in Space Studies which is giving me the opportunity to learn how the universe operates, I have learned that the universe in its current state gets along just fine with out any intervention from Heavenly Father whatsoever, in fact from the point of view of an atheist everything about our existence can be explained by the processes of natural causes and the life on this planet is nothing more then a result of the laws of physics and evolution, a chance occurrence of random events.

The point I want to make is that we should not rush to judgment simply because someone does not think the same way we do because the fact of the matter is that even though I am as certain as I can possibly be that this gospel is true, that does not mean that we have a monopoly on all truth and that there is far more that we don’t know about the universe and the gospel then what we do know, I have no idea how my father, my brothers or any one else, my self included will be judged when it is all said and done. It seems incredibly selfish and unfair for us to say that we have a inside track on exaltation simply because we are lucky enough to be Gods chosen few, tantamount to baptizing babies IMO. On the other hand perhaps we aren’t God’s chosen people, but rather we are the people who have chosen to follow God and he has offered us the opportunity to be his servants by being a part of his kingdom here on Earth and doing his will for the salvation of man, what think you?

[Guest Godless]

I think you have a very admirable viewpoint.

[Snow]

I am currently working towards a BS in Space Studies which is giving me the opportunity to learn how the universe operates, I have learned that the universe in its current state gets along just fine with out any intervention from Heavenly Father whatsoever,

Yeah - I'm gonna have to call bull on that one. You didn't "learn" that. You simply have a theory or have faith that such is true. Science is incapable of demonstrating it.

[Universeman]

The title of this post was in jest btw , and I am not sure what “bull” your referring to Snow, that the universe does require God's intervention to operate? At any rate all I’m saying is that an atheist can explain how the universe operates with out the need for God to cause it to happen in the way that we observe it.

I just want to clarify that I do have a strong testimony of the gospel, I simply have a tendency to be curious about the hard to answer stuff, you know the stuff that we have to try and figure out for our selves the best we are able, I don't shy away from criticism about what we believe because I have a strong testimony. If I am not making sense please ask me to clarify what I am trying to say is all I ask. Lets all be fonzie's here.

[Snow]

I was responding to what you say you learned. I dispute that such a thing can be learned - it can only be guessed at.

[Universeman]

Ya I'll buy that Snow, I'll be the first to admit that we completely lack the understanding as to how Heavenly Father organizes matter into habitable worlds, after all we don't even know what the universe is made of. According to our best instruments 96% of the universe consists of unknown materials and processes given that we do not know what Dark Matter or Dark Energy is. Astronomers can only account for 4% of the universe(AKA the stuff that we and all the stars are made of), Dark matters presence is infered by its gravitational effects on the orbital velocities of galaxies, and Dark energy is somehow accelerating the expansion of the entire universe, that’s a pretty big gap in our knowledge. I hope its ok if I have a tendency to go off the deep end, what can I say I cannot help my curious nature. :)

[BenRaines]

Universeman,

I believe, don't know but believe, that Snow's point is that you can believe that is how things operate, as far as universe operating without God's hand but to know that is impossible. As you have stated science does not even know what the bulk of the universe consists of.

Welcome and have a great time posting.

Ben Raines

[talisyn]

God, being God, knows full well how to build a perpetual-motion machine

[Bini]

My dad is an atheist and yet some how I have managed to balance his way of looking at the universe without a god with my conviction that there is indeed one. I am currently working towards a BS in Space Studies which is giving me the opportunity to learn how the universe operates, I have learned that the universe in its current state gets along just fine with out any intervention from Heavenly Father whatsoever, in fact from the point of view of an atheist everything about our existence can be explained by the processes of natural causes and the life on this planet is nothing more then a result of the laws of physics and evolution, a chance occurrence of random events.

The point I want to make is that we should not rush to judgment simply because someone does not think the same way we do because the fact of the matter is that even though I am as certain as I can possibly be that this gospel is true, that does not mean that we have a monopoly on all truth and that there is far more that we don’t know about the universe and the gospel then what we do know, I have no idea how my father, my brothers or any one else, my self included will be judged when it is all said and done. It seems incredibly selfish and unfair for us to say that we have a inside track on exaltation simply because we are lucky enough to be Gods chosen few, tantamount to baptizing babies IMO. On the other hand perhaps we aren’t God’s chosen people, but rather we are the people who have chosen to follow God and he has offered us the opportunity to be his servants by being a part of his kingdom here on Earth and doing his will for the salvation of man, what think you?

I agree with that point.

[Universeman]

God, being God, knows full well how to build a perpetual-motion machine

In Doctrine and covenants 93:29, the prophet also writes, 'Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." In addition, the Prophet taught, "There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is fine and pure" (131:7). Combining these teachings, "spirit element," also called intelligence, or the light (energy attributes) is transformed into spirit bodies (pure, refined matter), but it cannot be created of destroyed. In other words, and change in energy attributes corresponds to a change in mass. It seems the prophet Joseph clearly understood and taught this principle.

Joseph Smith: The Prophet, The Man - Joseph Smith on Modern Science

Professor Sir Eric Ash

The law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant, although it may change forms, into heat or kinetic energy for example.

In short, law states that energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Denying its validity would undermine not just little bits of science - the whole edifice would be no more. All of the technology on which we built the modern world would lie in ruins.

There is no flexibility in the acceptance of the law as true - at all times, and in all circumstances.

BBC NEWS | Technology | The perpetual myth of free energy

In essence Joseph Smith himself taught that a perpetual motion machine would violate Heavenly Fathers own laws regarding the nature of matter and energy. BTW that’s a very interesting article from the BYU Religious Studies Center about how the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith taught are still in complete harmony with what we currently know about modern science.

Yay time for conference!

[marshac]

Dark energy is somehow accelerating the expansion of the entire universe

We're accelerating? That's a new one for me- especially since it would violate the first law of thermodynamics, and that's saying nothing of the fantastic speeds a celestial body would reach under a state of constant acceleration.

To me, the creation of the universe was a perfect pool shot- God racked the balls and took the shot, knowing full well where every ball would be at any given point in time. If he had to make constant alterations to the universe after it's initial creation, then that would somehow suggest that the initial creation was less than perfect.

[dazed-and-confused]

i saw on the history channel that ALL of the early scientists were in fact, priests and holy men.

the three wise men were, afterall, astrologers.

back then science was directly tied to religion,

what happened?

somewhere along the way a rift occured between science and religion.

i still see this old truth to be valid.....just because we dont know the whole formula, doesnt mean that there isnt a God and that He is not in control.

on the other hand, an argument has often beeen made that there is no God because there is no proof.

well, i feel that i have proof...for myself....as for anyone else?...they're on their own with that one.....i cant help you.

[Universeman]

I am deeply concerned by the responses I have received from you concerning scientific knowledge you have made some very illogical ascertations. Science is the pursuit of knowledge through the study of the physical universe, as such it is a human and imperfect endeavor, on the other hand even with the revealed gospel, not every thing has been revealed to us, such as the manner in which the universe or our planet was organized out of unorganized matter, or how life was placed on the Earth, all we know is that this was accomplished by some means that has not yet been revealed to us. That said if we know that Heavenly Father exists as has been revealed to us by Joseph Smith, then what do we have to fear from some scientific discovery that is seemingly at odds with what has been revealed to us regarding the true nature of the universe.

AoF:11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

And

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Also

D&C:19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

All I'm saying is there is no need for us to feel threatened by science such as when the vast majority of the scientific community agrees that 74% of the universe consists of dark energy or that life on this planet is the result of billions of years of evolution. Scientists’ are not trying to deceive us, they are simply studying the nature of the universe and life on this planet the best that they are able to in the most honest and pier reviewed manner possible based on testable hypotheses. Furthermore let me add that if we could prove the existence of Heavenly Father through scientific discovery it would destroy our need for faith, this applies to the Book of Mormon as well, we are required to have faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

D&C:29 And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

Alma 42: 7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.

8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.

9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.

10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

I simply study science as honestly as I possibly can, I try to understand the discoveries in an unbiased manner, to say that the universe was created in such and such manner is pointless speculation and I see no harm in learning from the best books on science and pondering what I can learn from them. Science has no bearing on my testimony whatsoever, because my testimony comes from the spirit and not from what I know about archeological evidence or scientific knowledge.

[marshac]

I am deeply concerned by the responses I have received from you concerning scientific knowledge you have made some very illogical ascertations.

Me? Who are you directing this at? You receive a whole smörgåsbord of responses and positions- they can't all be lumped into the same category.

[Elphaba]

BTW that’s a very interesting article from the BYU Religious Studies Center about how the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith taught are still in complete harmony with what we currently know about modern science.

Would you please provide a link?

Elphaba

[jadams_4040]

My dad is an atheist and yet some how I have managed to balance his way of looking at the universe without a god with my conviction that there is indeed one. I am currently working towards a BS in Space Studies which is giving me the opportunity to learn how the universe operates, I have learned that the universe in its current state gets along just fine with out any intervention from Heavenly Father whatsoever, in fact from the point of view of an atheist everything about our existence can be explained by the processes of natural causes and the life on this planet is nothing more then a result of the laws of physics and evolution, a chance occurrence of random events.

The point I want to make is that we should not rush to judgment simply because someone does not think the same way we do because the fact of the matter is that even though I am as certain as I can possibly be that this gospel is true, that does not mean that we have a monopoly on all truth and that there is far more that we don’t know about the universe and the gospel then what we do know, I have no idea how my father, my brothers or any one else, my self included will be judged when it is all said and done. It seems incredibly selfish and unfair for us to say that we have a inside track on exaltation simply because we are lucky enough to be Gods chosen few, tantamount to baptizing babies IMO. On the other hand perhaps we aren’t God’s chosen people, but rather we are the people who have chosen to follow God and he has offered us the opportunity to be his servants by being a part of his kingdom here on Earth and doing his will for the salvation of man, what think you?

We dont profes to "know" everything; as our 9th artyicle of faith clearly states. I;E...

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.:)

[Universeman]

All I'm saying is that science is based on imperfect theories which are then supported by empirical data until such time as new data requires a rethinking of the old model, Dark Energy is a perfect example of the scientific process in action. Saying that dark energy doesn’t exist, is like saying God used magic to create the universe out of nothing, which BTW he didn’t.

SkyandTelescope.com - News Blog - Dark Energy: Real and Overwhelming

[Universeman]

Remember dark energy's existence is unprovable because it can only be inferred by its effects, does any one else see a parallel between dark energy and the spirit? Just thought I would point that out because that’s kind of interesting I think.

[marshac]

All I'm saying is that science is based on imperfect theories which are then supported by empirical data until such time as new data requires a rethinking of the old model, Dark Energy is a perfect example of the scientific process in action. Saying that dark energy doesn’t exist, is like saying God used magic to create the universe out of nothing, which BTW he didn’t.

SkyandTelescope.com - News Blog - Dark Energy: Real and Overwhelming

Thanks for the link- it was interesting. I'm not a physicist- i'm a chemist and biologist. I honestly don't like being talked to like a Luddite either- not everyone can be expected to keep up with the latest fads in cosmology. I don't need a lecture on the scientific method either.

Also, I think you're operating under some false assumptions though- who here fears science? I know I don't- nor does the church. I find the elegant complexities of biological systems to be the very signature of God.

Regarding the actual creation-

Have you ever read this quote by Arthur C. Clarke- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

So in a sense, given our current understanding of creation, it WAS magic. We have some ideas about how it may have happened, but honestly, some of the ideas put forth about what actually caused the big bang are pretty nuts.

[Guest]

I fear no science.

Actually, I believe science and theology go hand-in-hand. Science provides a better understanding of the nature of God and theology provides answers to the holes in science, with all the rest left to future revelations in both science and theology. Of course, if you're an atheist, then science is just that. Scientific facts with a whole bunch of unknowns and guesstimates.

[Universeman]

My apologies marshac, it was never my intent to insult. I have struggled my self on how to reconcile my faith with my scientific studies, I still do and you are surely far more knowledgeable regarding evolution than I am for example. Considering your field of expertise I would be surprised in the extreme if you have never encountered a hard line atheistic evolutionary biologist during your academic pursuits.

I guess what I’m hoping to get across with this thread is how can we best confront these differences with our colleges that we work with or otherwise encounter. How can we advance our scientific pursuits if in the middle of an equation we simply insert “and then a miracle happens” as some sort of stop gap measure until we learn how Heavenly Father operates, we all know that’s not going to fly. How we approach these issues with our professors and colleges can be rather touchy, I want to discuss these kind of touchy subjects with other Latter Day Saints so that perhaps together we can find better ways to confront these issues. However based on my exposure to atheists its pretty much best to not mention God at all as they really don’t care what our beliefs are and they will are only willing to consider empirical data.

To quote another famous atheist, Douglas Adams

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

Of course I believe in God but I don’t believe that there are fairies under the garden either. I have heard that quote by Arthur C Clark and I see where you are going with it and I completely agree with you. What’s tricky is where do we draw the line between faith and science and not start tossing fairies under the garden just because we don’t know how things work?

I really hope that I’m making sense and not making things worse, if not please ask me to clarify.

[Traveler]

.....

I have learned that the universe in its current state gets along just fine with out any intervention from Heavenly Father whatsoever, in fact from the point of view of an atheist everything about our existence can be explained by the processes of natural causes and the life on this planet is nothing more then a result of the laws of physics and evolution, a chance occurrence of random events.

.....

I would be most interested in any scientific undertaking that has proven a single chance occurrence of any random event. The closest thing I know of is what is called a quantum abnormality. I would submit that as science has advance we have learned that what was previously thought to be random or chance event had only been because we did not understand all the parameters associated with the cause.

I believe that the argument of random chance is as shallow and intellectually ignorant as the notion that G-d did it by magic or divine un-understandable means. They are both excuses for not knowing.

Personally I do not accept the notion that just because we do not know how something came about that we assume that either G-d did it or that it was random. I believe the only true answer in such a case is that based on what we do know – we just do not know the cause.

But to be honest – the greatest mystery to me is when we consider all the order that is at every level of existence of all that science measures – that the best explanation that someone has to explain of the whole thing - is that there is no sign nor can there be any intelligence anywhere in it. To me that is one of the most baffling and bewildering sentiment of our generation. The other notion is that anyone that can see intelligence within the order of things is a complete idiot and a fool. I find such notions contrary to science and the intelligent advancement of possibilities.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

My apologies marshac, it was never my intent to insult. I have struggled my self on how to reconcile my faith with my scientific studies, I still do and you are surely far more knowledgeable regarding evolution than I am for example. Considering your field of expertise I would be surprised in the extreme if you have never encountered a hard line atheistic evolutionary biologist during your academic pursuits.

I guess what I’m hoping to get across with this thread is how can we best confront these differences with our colleges that we work with or otherwise encounter. How can we advance our scientific pursuits if in the middle of an equation we simply insert “and then a miracle happens” as some sort of stop gap measure until we learn how Heavenly Father operates, we all know that’s not going to fly. How we approach these issues with our professors and colleges can be rather touchy, I want to discuss these kind of touchy subjects with other Latter Day Saints so that perhaps together we can find better ways to confront these issues. However based on my exposure to atheists its pretty much best to not mention God at all as they really don’t care what our beliefs are and they will are only willing to consider empirical data.

To quote another famous atheist, Douglas Adams

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

Of course I believe in God but I don’t believe that there are fairies under the garden either. I have heard that quote by Arthur C Clark and I see where you are going with it and I completely agree with you. What’s tricky is where do we draw the line between faith and science and not start tossing fairies under the garden just because we don’t know how things work?

I really hope that I’m making sense and not making things worse, if not please ask me to clarify.

I will tell you how I answered my professor in Quantum Mechanics. I asked how it is that he thought that having faith in what we think we understand of G-d is any more foolish than having faith in what we think we understand of electrons. And just because we may not have all the answers about G-d why is it any less wise to pray to G-d expecting an answer than someone that may not have all the answers about electrons turning on a switch and expecting the light to go on. If you think that G-d does not exist because there is no answer to a prayer that such is no wiser than someone that thinks there are no electrons because a light did not go on.

The Traveler

[davidroscoe]

Hello,,

Everyone from the time their born, have it within their personality to discover what already there. I can remember discovering i wanted to walk for the attention, because where that attention came to me, when i couldnt walk. Then wanting to walk for more attention. Then when i was trying to walk, i couldnt understand what was being said untill someone pointed at something, and i got such a kick out of it, and started pointing at everything for the word. Then choosing from role models who i wanted to be like, and how i was going to get what i wanted from my surrounding. After that was more or less about what i thought was important, and what i wanted to ignore. I think thats basic for everyone though i dont think a lot of people spend time remembering their own choices that drove them to be who they are. Its not always easy to see what someone else is talking about because of their personal experainces or choices.

If you like someone, it may be because your like them in a way, or they have something you dont have, like knowlege. Everyone basically becomes what they are like, what they like. So people tend to gravitate twards what they like. Forming different groups based on their likes and dislikes. Often leaving space thats hard to bridge and many times leaves people to use a type of understanding in order to do that. Thats more done when its benificial to co-exist with others who are different.

When i spend time reading the bible and ever came across anything that was questionable, i would ask Heavenly Father, but also try and figure it out myself. That because i cared about what God cared for.(If i mention another G-d, and a understanding of a untrue charecter, then i wont spell it out). It always seems to work best when there is something God says or someone says about God, and i cant understand how it applys to life or how to use it in life. But in prayer i would always ask that i be shown it was Heavenly Father who gave the answer, and that seemed to help bring the answer in such a way that would prove what i wanted to know and how its intended purpose. So those building blocks of choices went in a total different way than most . But then seeing how that unfolded in such a way to actually live the part.

With all that seeing God work in such a way couldnt figure out why he was showing me all this stuff, i mean there are others who are just as curious as myself, and didnt they deserve to know like myself. Then it came to me why, and thats to be like him. Then the worlds, systems, galaxys, and univers i understood better, as they were for us, and because of us. Created for our existance.

In studying people, it also helped me to understand myself much better. I like to be asked for whats needed, and i like giving things to people who do what i want them to do by example, expecially if they use it for a good reason in the same manner i would. So when i think of God, i see him in much the same manner. When i do ponder things i like to think the answers lay within us, to unlock. I also understand everyone like to specialize in something too, though im not sure wich way is better, though i do know eventually everyone will know and be able to connect what they have learned with What God has to teach us later.

Peace and Love in Jesus.