Age of Accountability

[lattelady]

Joker, I kinda see where you're coming from. I understood what the gospel was at a VERY young age, but I think I "accepted" it then because of a fear of hell rather than a true heart belief. That came later and then my faith was my OWN and something I truly took to heart rather than believing because it was what I felt I SHOULD do.

[pam]

I too have to say that Joker and I are just not going to agree. Joker has his opinion set and sees no other explanation or understanding. I too, have my personal experiences of many more years than he has even lived...yet what I have to say doesn't appear to be of importance. Sorry..that's just the way I see it.

[TheJoker]

I too have to say that Joker and I are just not going to agree.

People have different opinions. Not a bad thing.

Joker has his opinion set and sees no other explanation or understanding.

I could say the same thing about you. But i haven't.

I too, have my personal experiences of many more years than he has even lived

I fail to see the meaning of that? Are you assuming because you are older you must know more?

...yet what I have to say doesn't appear to be of importance.

Why because we disagree? You really seem to have a big problem with people not agreeing with you.

Sorry..that's just the way I see it.

Sorry to hear that

[beefche]

I fail to see the meaning of that? Are you assuming because you are older you must know more?

Absolutely, my young Padawan....

[TheJoker]

Joker, I kinda see where you're coming from. I understood what the gospel was at a VERY young age, but I think I "accepted" it then because of a fear of hell rather than a true heart belief. That came later and then my faith was my OWN and something I truly took to heart rather than believing because it was what I felt I SHOULD do.

That's all very well and nice. However, people seem to think that because that is the way it happened to them. That is the way it happened with everyone.

[TheJoker]

Absolutely, my young Padawan....

But doesn't the padawan slay the master?

In all seriousness though. Age has nothing to do with any of it.

[beefche]

You're assuming I'm Obi.....

[TheJoker]

You're assuming I'm Obi.....

You're assuming i'm Skywalker? :)

[lattelady]

Joker, I was actually trying to say that I understand, to a point, what you're saying (or part of what you're saying): that sometimes children go with the flow and do things in the church because it is expected and because their family does those things--and not necessarily because of a real, genuine heart-belief. I was saying that I believe I did that for a time; I did what I thought was right, but I don't think I fully understood. I DO believe, however, that there are children who absolutely understand the gospel at a very young age and their faith is REAL. I was just trying to validate some of where you're coming from, that's all... :)

[pam]

That's all very well and nice. However, people seem to think that because that is the way it happened to them. That is the way it happened with everyone.

Isn't that kind of what you are doing though?

I am not underestimating anyone. I am going off personal experience.

Because that's the way you felt at age 8..you are assuming that is how all 8 year olds are.

[TheJoker]

I don't understand your post. What are you referring to when you say that less than 1% is lucky?

The world's population

[john doe]

There is no 'If's' or 'but's' about this.

I appreciate any belief. Personally i believe the world would be a much better place is everybody just got along. Regardless on belief.

Nobody has the right to degrade anybody's beliefs.

And yet, here you are.

[TheJoker]

And yet, here you are.

What's your point may i ask?

I am not degrading someone by disagreeing with them.

[john doe]

It's been your M.O. here since you arrived. Don't try to play so innocent.

[pam]

Joker, I was actually trying to say that I understand, to a point, what you're saying (or part of what you're saying): that sometimes children go with the flow and do things in the church because it is expected and because their family does those things--and not necessarily because of a real, genuine heart-belief. I was saying that I believe I did that for a time; I did what I thought was right, but I don't think I fully understood. I DO believe, however, that there are children who absolutely understand the gospel at a very young age and their faith is REAL. I was just trying to validate some of where you're coming from, that's all... :)

I happen to agree with you. I have seen children that truly have an amazing understanding and faith at a very young age. It really brings home the phrase "childlike faith."

[TheJoker]

It's been your M.O. here since you arrived. Don't try to play so innocent.

Have i insulted anyone because of what they believe? No.

Have i said things based on my opinion? Yes.

If you are referring to what i put in the Christian section of the forums. Please read what the other guy put.

I have not broken any rules. Some people just seem to get upset when people don't agree with them. That's not my fault or problem.

Joker I think you underestimate children at that age.

My opinion ''must' be wrong

Perhaps you weren't ready to make the commitment to baptism

Must be 'me' again..

I agree with this..but only if both sides are willing to listen and acknowledge the beliefs of the other.

She has shown no evidence of this.

Joker has his opinion set and sees no other explanation or understanding

If this is not an insult what is? Look in the mirror.

I too, have my personal experiences of many more years than he has even lived

Assumes she must know better than me because she is older.

yet what I have to say doesn't appear to be of importance

I didn't agree with her. So i must think that her opinion is not important. Obviously.

But your right. I am the problem. Clearly.

Edited October 10, 2009 by TheJoker

[ploomf]

Joker the impression I got from your posts was that since you were not ready to be baptized at 8 years old no child could ever possibly be ready at that age. I have known many children who were just being baptized because mommy and daddy said it was the right thing to do but like pam and lattelady I've also known some that had an amazing faith and knew exactly why it was important to be baptized. Ultimately it should be up to the parents, if they feel their child is ready I’m going to trust their judgment.

[TheJoker]

Joker the impression I got from your posts was that since you were not ready to be baptized at 8 years old no child could ever possibly be ready at that age. I have known many children who were just being baptized because mommy and daddy said it was the right thing to do but like pam and lattelady I've also known some that had an amazing faith and knew exactly why it was important to be baptized. Ultimately it should be up to the parents, if they feel their child is ready I’m going to trust their judgment.

I find that a fair opinion. And i respect that

Of course i disagree though. As i think that the parents shouldn't be the ones who make the decision. But hey! Thats my opinion.

Just because i disagree doesn't mean i don't think it is a good view.

That's why i am going to stop taking part of the actual discussion of this. I'll respond if i read my name in a post of course.

Edited October 10, 2009 by TheJoker

[pam]

Have i insulted anyone because of what they believe? No.

Have i said things based on my opinion? Yes.

If you are referring to what i put in the Christian section of the forums. Please read what the other guy put.

I have not broken any rules. Some people just seem to get upset when people don't agree with them. That's not my fault or problem.

My opinion ''must' be wrong

Must be 'me' again..

She has shown no evidence of this.

If this is not an insult what is? Look in the mirror.

Assumes she must know better than me because she is older.

I didn't agree with her. So i must think that her opinion is not important. Obviously.

But your right. I am the problem. Clearly.

JD made no mention of any particular post or thread. You made your point earlier. Why do you feel the need to justify yourself by a continuance of an attack on me?

[Kawazu]

Howdy,

Where baptism is concerned, I think that a certain amount of social pressure is unavoidable, regardless of whatever point in time it is customary for one to undergo the ceremony; personally, I am not sure how I stand on the issue.

To TheJoker, I would ask whether or not you may be wrong--is there an even remote possibility of a child who is cognizant and up to the task of making the baptismal covenant?

To Beefche and Pam, I would ask whether or not you may be wrong--is there an even remote possibility of an eight-year-old who is unprepared for his or her baptism?

Agreeing to disagree is the best possible for this discussion. Perhaps both sides are correct, given various circumstances?

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,

Kawazu

Edited October 10, 2009 by Kawazu

[TheJoker]

JD made no mention of any particular post or thread.

Someone ticked me off in what they put in a post. I thought it might have to do with that.

You made your point earlier.

Read what i just put. Tell me where i put that before please.

Why do you feel the need to justify yourself by a continuance of an attack on me?

What attack. Seriously. Read the quotes of what you put about me. And then look at yourself. I am not the one doing any 'attacking'.

[pam]

To Beefche and Pam, I would ask whether or not you may be wrong--is there an even remote possibility of an eight-year-old who is unprepared for his or her baptism?

I never once said that there is not the possibility that an 8 year old could be unprepared for baptism. Nor did Beefche.

What I was disagreeing with is the fact that there are in fact some 8 year olds that are very much aware of the commitment to baptism. There are many that also have a great understanding and faith. That just because one person felt they didn't have the spiritual level at age 8 didn't mean that that applied to all 8 year olds.

[TheJoker]

Howdy,

To TheJoker, I would ask whether or not you may be wrong--is there an even remote possibility of a child who is cognizant and up to the task of making the baptismal covenant?

Yes of course. I probably let personal experience get the better of me. For that i apologize.

I suppose all children are different. Means that the main question is a yes/no depending on the person.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Same back to you.

[TheJoker]

What I was disagreeing with is the fact that there are in fact some 8 year olds that are very much aware of the commitment to baptism. There are many that also have a great understanding and faith. That just because one person felt they didn't have the spiritual level at age 8 didn't mean that that applied to all 8 year olds.

I like how you have put the word 'many' into what you are saying now.

Before we were both speaking as though it is for all 8 year olds. Guess that was the problem

Now you are saying that there are 'SOME' eight year olds. That is not what you were saying earlier.

I am sorry. I telling the truth another attack?

Edited October 10, 2009 by TheJoker

[pam]

I like how you have put the word 'many' into what you are saying now.

Before we were both speaking as though it is for all 8 year olds. Guess that was the problem

Now you are saying that there are 'SOME' eight year olds. That is not what you were saying earlier.

I am sorry. I telling the truth another attack?

I think you need to go back and read some of my posts. For example in post #44 I mention "many more."