A Sin Question

[Maureen]

I guess I just don't understand why a loving Heavenly Father would send us into the world with the label of sinner already attached to us. That too doesn't make sense to me.

That was really Adam's choice. Do you think God should have just started from scratch and see if the next Adam would have done better?

M.

[pam]

I understand your question Maureen. The only answer I have is because not one of us is perfect. I only know of one perfect person that ever lived on this earth and that is Jesus Christ.

Who also, btw was the one that gave us the opportunity as talked about in verse 18 that you quoted earlier.

“As the penalty incident to the fall came upon the race through an individual act, it would be manifestly unjust, and therefore impossible as part of the divine purpose, to make all men suffer the results thereof without provision for deliverance. Moreover, since by the transgression of one man sin came into the world and death was entailed upon all, it is consistent with reason that the atonement thus made necessary should be wrought by one.” (Jesus the Christ, 19.)

[pam]

That was really Adam's choice. Do you think God should have just started from scratch and see if the next Adam would have done better?

M.

I'm not sure Adam really had a choice. It was part of the plan of salvation. Creation, fall, atonement. The fall was part of the plan so in reality it HAD to happen.

[Maureen]

...The only answer I have is because not one of us is perfect....

What makes us not perfect?

...Moreover, since by the transgression of one man sin came into the world...

How did sin come into the world? Do you see sin as a disease that is contagious that we can catch, not as something we inherited from our original parents?

M.

[pam]

Let me ask this as a basis for how I might answer. What is your definition of sin?

[Maureen]

I'm not sure Adam really had a choice. It was part of the plan of salvation. Creation, fall, atonement. The fall was part of the plan so in reality it HAD to happen.

This makes it look like God's fault after all. What's the point of free agency if Adam did not have a choice?

M.

[AnthonyB]

lattelady,

Rom 7:9 "Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died."

Clearly he means spiritual life and death and not physical. Paul was once spiritually alive but then spiritually died.

Rom 7:13 "But in order that sin might be recognized as sin it produced death in me..."

If it produced death then he must have been alive before he died.

[pam]

This makes it look like God's fault after all. What's the point of free agency if Adam did not have a choice?

M.

From lds.org

Benefits of the Fall

The Fall is an integral part of Heavenly Father's plan of salvation (see 2 Nephi 2:15–16; 9:6). It has a twofold direction—downward yet forward. In addition to introducing physical and spiritual death, it gave us the opportunity to be born on the earth and to learn and progress. Through our righteous exercise of agency and our sincere repentance when we sin, we can come unto Christ and, through His Atonement, prepare to receive the gift of eternal life. The prophet Lehi taught:

"If Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

"And [Adam and Eve] would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

"But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

"Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

"And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall" (2 Nephi 2:22–26; see also 2 Nephi 2:19–21, 27).

Adam and Eve expressed their gratitude for the blessings that came as a result of the Fall:

"Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

"And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient" (Moses 5:10-11).

[BenRaines]

We are born in to the work innocent and without sin. We, by choices we make, sin.

Before Adam's transgression there was no sin. By Adam's fall sin entered in to the world.

Sort of, if I remember the story right, Pandora's box. With Adams' fall Pandora's box was opened and sin entered the world.

Ben Raines

[Maureen]

Let me ask this as a basis for how I might answer. What is your definition of sin?

To not go into a long winded explanation, I would say sin is "the inability to meet God's standard of perfection".

M.

[pam]

According to James 4:17

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

[martybess]

Born sinless but perfection is impossible without Christ.

_

[lattelady]

Nowhere in the Bible do I find any indication that the Fall--Adam and Eve's sin was a Fall into something good. Nowhere do I see that it benefitted them in any way, as indicated in post #33! They were cursed because of it, an every generation after them! They lived in a perfect environment, they knew NO SHAME (I can't even imagine that!), they never had to hide from God because they'd done something wrong, they didn't know sorrow or pain or death or hate...and all that was stripped from them because of their sin. How could that be seen as a beneficial thing?

[pam]

Neither you nor I would be here if it weren't for the fall. We would have never had the opportunity to come to earth nor return to our Heavenly Father which was the plan for us.

As far as none of that being in the Bible. As you may or may not have noticed...those quotes were taken from the Book of Mormon which of course is canonized scripture that we as LDS also follow.

[Just_A_Guy]

Lattelady--

For the Mormon view, you'll have to look at a couple of scriptures that are unique to our faith. See, e.g., 2 Nephi Chapter 2 and Moses Chapter 5, Verse 11.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Snow]

See post #18.

... and how does that respond to my post?

Romans 5 explains the idea of original sin.

I think you mean that St. Augustine thinks that Romans 5 explains the idea of original sin. The early church certainly didn’t think so. It is a later change to ancient belief.

“The Greek text reads, "Through one man [or 'because of one man,'] sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came upon all men, in that all sinned." John Chrysostom, like most Christians, took this to mean that Adam's sin brought death into the world, and death came upon all because "all sinned." But Augustine read the passage in Latin, and so either ignored or was unaware of the connotations of the Greek original; thus he misread the last phrase as referring to Adam. Augustine insisted that it meant that "death came upon all men, in whom all sinned" - that the sin of "one man," Adam, brought upon humanity not only universal death, but also universal, and inevitable, sin. Augustine uses the passage to deny that human beings have free moral choice, which Jews and Christians had traditionally regarded as the birthright of humanity made "in God's image." Augustine decrees, on the contrary, that the whole human race inherited from Adam a nature irreversibly damaged by sin...."

Augustine attempts to rest his case concerning original sin ... upon the evidence of one prepositional phrase in Romans 5:12, insisting that Paul said that death came upon all humanity because of Adam, "in whom all sinned. But Augustine misreads and mistranslates this phrase (which others translate "in that [i.e., because] all sinned") and then proceeds to defend his errors ad infinitum.... Augustine's argument has persuaded the majority of western Catholic and Protestant theologians to agree with him;... But, ... when we actually compare Augustine's interpretation with those of theologians as diverse as Origen, John Chrysostom, and Pelagius, we can see that Augustine found in Romans ... what others had not seen there.” (Elaine Pagels, Adam, Eve, and the Serpent, New York: Random House, 1988, pp. 109 and 143)

Adam was responsible for our sinful nature why do you think it would be God's fault?

M.

Egads Maureen, do you seriously expect someone to believe that Adam had the power to supernaturally change God’s perfect (according to you) creation into sinners? That would make Adam a kind of deity and you’d be worshipping at the altar to Adam in addition to feeding at the trough of Augustine.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Snow

[john doe]

Nowhere in the Bible do I find any indication that the Fall--Adam and Eve's sin was a Fall into something good. Nowhere do I see that it benefitted them in any way, as indicated in post #33! They were cursed because of it, an every generation after them! They lived in a perfect environment, they knew NO SHAME (I can't even imagine that!), they never had to hide from God because they'd done something wrong, they didn't know sorrow or pain or death or hate...and all that was stripped from them because of their sin. How could that be seen as a beneficial thing?

That's why the benefit of additional scriptures is so important. Isn't it cool that we have modern prophets who can reveal God's word to us and clarify the ancient texts?

[Justice]

This is really simple and logical, if you think about it.

We have agency. The only way we can have agency is if we are allowed to chose for ourselves. If Adam's transgression forces us in any way to sin, then we would not have agency.

Christ Himself was born mortal. He was born into the same fallen world everyone else is born in. He did not sin. He chose not to. There is the proof we need that being born into this world under Adam's transgression does not force us to sin.

This discussion can deep pretty fast, with discussing the Fall and the like. But, that much of it should be pretty simple. It is either or... either we have agency or we are born with an irresistable urge to sin. If we are not able to resist it, then we do not have agency.

[pam]

Christ Himself was born mortal. He was born into the same fallen world everyone else is born in. He did not sin. He chose not to. There is the proof we need that being born into this world under Adam's transgression does not force us to sin.

Let me add a small additional thought to this. If we are born as sinners, that would mean that Christ was also considered a sinner. If he was born into the same fallen world. Yet we know he was the one perfect person on the earth. How could that be if he was born a sinner?

[AnthonyB]

pam,

One answer to that question is that sin is passed on "federally" not "biologically".

Adam was the representative of mankind, he was the "head" of all mankind, he broke the covenant on our behalf.

Adam was not Christ's head, since Christ existed before Adam and therefore Jesus was not under Adam.

All that choose to be under (or in) Christ, move from being under the headship of Adam to the headship of Christ.

For me Romans teaches that all other infants (except Jesus) are born under Adam but they are not held accountable for Adam's sin because of the sacrifice of Christ, but they are held accountable for their own sin.

All people even infants carry a fatal attraction to sin but not all are held accountable for their sins until they have a knowledge of commandments and consequences.

Edited October 11, 2009 by AnthonyB

[pam]

Thanks Anthony for that answer. But that doesn't really answer the question for me. If I base my question strictly on what has been said earlier..it has been said that we are all born sinners.

Personally, I don't believe we are all born sinners. I believe we are born sinless into this world. That we use the agency given to us to sin or not follow the commandments we are taught.

My point was..if I use the logic given in a few posts..that would mean that Christ who was also born into this world would be considered a sinner. Yet we know he was not. There was never a mention that there are exceptions to that rule.

[john doe]

Well, isn't that why the doctor slaps babies on the backside when they're born? He's delivering punishment for the baby being a sinner.........

Since sin= evil this whole concept of babies being evil bothers me. Where do people come up with this concept that babies are born bad? I know George Thorogood sang a song about it, but that doesn't make it true.

[pam]

I always thought it was for a different reason. Thank you JD for correcting me on my thinking on that. I've had it wrong for years.

[Snow]

The whole mainstream idea of original sin makes little or no sense...

-It defies common sense and observed reality - you can look at an infant and easily understand that it is incapable of sinning.

-It is illogical - one cannot be something - a sinner - unless one does something - ie sin, first.

-It is contradicted by scientific fact - man existed and “sinned” for a hundred thousand years before “The Fall.”

-It is impossible to reconcile with a belief in a JUST god.

-From the scriptures we can say that:

--Christ had no knowledge of it.

--Peter James and John were not aware of it.

--The authors of the gospel were not acquainted with the idea

--The prophets of the Old Testament demonstrate no awareness of the doctrine.

-The Jews who had believed in Adam for centuries and centuries prior to Christianity do not believe it to this day.

-The early Christian church did not believe it.

-It is at odds with the teachings of the early Church Fathers.

-Augustine, who created the belief now held by modern Christianity, misinterpreted the scriptures because he read them in Latin, not the original Greek, resulting in a mistranslation. Augustine’s view on the matter was rooted in Hellenism, not Christianity or the scriptures. He developed the doctrine in response to Pelagian Christians but before Augustine, Pelagian theology was the traditional theology, especially in Rome. However, Augustine was able to made the charge of heresy stick. Some scholars today point out that Augustine, not Pelagius, was the real heretic.

-The doctrine of original sin was not formally canonized or promulgated in the 1500 and 1600s in both Protestantism and Catholicism.

-Original sin is the central dogma of traditional Christianity; from it follows the doctrine of salvation by the grace of God only. It gives necessary rise to all sorts of created, non scriptural, belief, like the immaculate conception - necessary to explain how Christ did not have a degenerate nature.

-The LDS view on The Fall is closer to the beliefs of the ancient Church than the traditional view of original sin in mainstream Christianity.

[pam]

Thanks Snow. I totally agree with that.