Discerning spirits

[prisonchaplain]

Most who read me here know that, as a Protestant, I am somewhat unique in my openness to spiritual confirmation. I find it fruitful and valid to seek the Holy Spirit's direction and approval for spiritual truth, and even for daily decisions.

But what happens when the spirit seems wrong? For example, if I were to tell you I prayed about the truth of the LDS Godhead teaching, vs. the Trinity, and felt a burning truth about your doctrine, you'd easily say, "Amen--whatever it costs you, PC, follow the spirit."

What of the reverse though? What if you were praying on this matter, and you sensed that maybe the historic teaching on the Trinity were true? You are shocked, and cannot believe this. So you pray more, but feel only more confirmation--the Trinity is true.

More examples: I know of a Nazarene chaplain who became Catholic because, during a retreat, he was in deep prayer, and smelt roses while in his room. He prayed on the meaning, and sensed that it was the presence of Mary, Mother of God.

Some early Pentecostals were reading Acts 2:38, and felt compelled to rebaptize everyone in the name of Jesus only. There were great spiritual manifestations and confirmations reported. However, the end result was a huge schism in the pentecostal movement, as this faction developed by rejecting the Trinity in favor of modalism (Jesus is Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

Then, of course, many ex-Mormons do claim that they felt uneasy with their LDS faith, that the spirits troubled them. The more they prayed, the more urgently they felt the need to leave.

Some take this reality and condemn any reliance on "spiritual feelings." Others say doctrine cannot be trusted--just follow the spirit. Most, imho, use their church's teaching as a benchmark, and the further a teaching or spiritual sense strays, the more strongly they "test the spirit." THOUGHTS?

[pam]

PC have you had your Starbucks today?

Just teasing. It's an interesting question.

[Just_A_Guy]

The two scriptures that come immediately to mind for me, as a Mormon, are Moroni 7 (whole chapter) and Isaiah 8:19-20.

EDIT: I think that the end of Matthew 7 also demonstrates how we can insulate ourselves from being deceived by false spirits: by completely submitting our own will to the will of God. Interestingly (to me), this counsel comes right after Jesus has taught the disciples how to pray.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[prisonchaplain]

PC have you had your Starbucks today?

Just teasing. It's an interesting question.

The scone was good, but the beverage ended up blessing the carpet...which may well explain the spirit that led to this post.

[deseretgov]

I think the God has a plan for each of us individually. Perhaps He knows that "Bill" would have a harder time coming close to Him as a Mormon. So if "Bill" Prays about the Book of Mormon the God would not give him a witness of it's truthfullness. But since God knows "Bill" better than he knows himself God would know that Bill can come closer to Him as a Muslim. So when "Bill" learns about the Quran and prays about it God confirms to him that the Quran is true.

Does that mean the Book of Mormon is not true? No. It just means that for "Bill", Islam is a better path.

Ephesians 4:11-13

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

God didn't give everybody the same thing. He knows we are different and so he gave some things unto some people. And it is this way for the perfecting of the saints, work of the ministry, and edifying of teh body of Christ. And it will be this way until the times comes that there s a unity of faith and unity of a knowledge of the Son of God.

So while God may lead people to different paths right now. There will come a time when we are all united together. God will lead the different paths together.

So for me it is not so much what we know, but rather what we do with what we know. We find a similiar line of thinking in the parable of the talents.

[Lilac]

This is EXACTLY where I am stuck. 100% stuck here.

We all have known people who have converted from religion X to religion Y and they all swear that the Spirit led them. How do we explain that? I have devout friends of all sorts of faiths and they all tell you how God leads them daily and how religion X is the only religion that is right. They claim to feel the spirit and just know that their religion is the one. The one true path. They are happy and satisfied spiritually. The bear fruit and live good lives.

I look at this and I'm puzzled. When I was younger, I just thought they were delusional. Now that I'm older (and hopefully wiser) I'd really like to know what is going on here!

For me personally, I have lived a devout Protestant life for almost 40 years. I have had some recent theological issues with Protestantism and did a little researching into the LDS.

I'd love to join the LDS. They are nice people who seem caring and kind. The love the Lord. They like a clean-cut ife. The have values and morals exactly like mine. I'm a perfect fit. My kids like the church. It is even close to my house!!! (added bonus!)

I am almost hesitant to believe any "leading" that I get. Maybe I'm just talking myself into a leading because I really like the LDS? I've had a few leadings before and they didn't really work out. I guess there weren't "true" leadings but how do I know that at the time?

How do you discern what is emotions and what is real?

Why are there so many people claiming to have "leading of the Holy Spirit" but they are all led in different directions?

I hate to say this but I almost feel like we are all crazy.

The missionaries say I am "over intellectualizing" things but on the other hand, if I just did things according to how I feel, I'd have quite a few puppies! (I'm joking but you get my point)

Anyone want to take a try at this topic?

Blessings.

[deseretgov]

Why are there so many people claiming to have "leading of the Holy Spirit" but they are all led in different directions?

See post #5.

[prisonchaplain]

Deseret, you're not the first to suggest that some people will do better in other religions--or even "lesser" heavenly kingdoms. I struggle with that. I truly believe that EVERYONE would do better as a Christian, and particularly, as a pentecostal Christian. Then again, I also believe that once we die we face the judgment.

To Lilac, I'd suggest that the Spirit's promptings might steer you in a direction, but you will want to confirm anything as major as a change in religion through searching the Scriptures prayerfully, and perhaps by discussing these things with people you respect. The Spirit will guide, but the barometer offered by the Bible is "the Apostles' teachings." So, in your comparison of Protestantism and the LDS faith, find out which most closely matches the Apostles' teachings. In your search, I suggest you look for what has the most positives, rather than getting stuck on negatives. For example, if you are troubled by the past polygamy but drawn to the teaching on Eternal Family, perhaps you should search the scriptures on the latter, rather than the former. If the various denominations and seeming chaos of Protestantism bothers you, but the near unity on such teachings as the veracity of the Bible, the Trinity, and salvation by grace, throug faith (we all agree that we should do good works), then focus on those unifying doctrines to see if the concur with Scripture and the Apostles' teachings.

You're clearly hungry for God's truth. Keep searching...He'll bring you to it.

[Justice]

I would say you have to look at your own self in the mirror... saying you will have to answer for your own decisions and actions.

All you can do is the best you can do. Our circumstances do not account entirely for who we are, but they do play a role. It may be some experience(s) leading you one way or the other. But, in the end, you have to do what you feel the Spirit is telling you.

It could be you [whoever this is about] is being led little by little, and the truth will be revealed later when you're ready to accept.

[Seminarysnoozer]

PC, I agree with most of what you say in post #8, except the part where you talk about comparison, "find out which most closely matches the Apostles' teachings." That would be like comparing the mustard seed to the mustard plant. The mustard seed looks a lot more like an orchid seed than it does a large plant or tree for that matter, even though the mustard seed and the mustard plant are the same things, just different points of time. Or if you pulled a book from the library of which the last few chapters on Algebra and Calculus were ripped out, and then later you found a book that had those chapters, you wouldn't compare the chapter on Calculus with the chapter on division. The two don't look at all alike but are part of the whole field of mathematics. Because your original book only had chapters on addition, subtraction and division doesn't mean that you should dismiss books on algebra and calculus.

Also ... enticing spirits of the devil can be hard to discern from the spirit of God, that has to be learned... that is the process of learning right from wrong. It's not a one step process. It's a many step process that is linked together by faith. Otherwise, the message of truth is like the seed that is thrown into rocky ground and has no root or like the seed that is sewn amongst thorns and bears no fruit because there are other interests and being pulled in different directions away from the truth. "hesitant to believe any 'leading' that (you) get" is the same as not having faith. "over intellectualizing" I think can be like the thorns in that parable, it chews up the energy needed to have faith and let the seed grow. I think spending a lot of time comparing and developing a testimony based on proof can choke out the seed. (see Mark 4)

[prisonchaplain]

Seminary...proof might be an odd word. But if the Apostles admonished the churches to continue in the Apostles' teaching, they surely had an understanding of what those teachings are. I too rebel against "religion as science" or as logic. But, it's not all mystery. There are some anchors or sign posts to guide us. The Spirit helps us navigate those, but minus the guideposts, it can be difficult to discern those spirits. Knowledge and the Spirit ought to compliment, not compete.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thanks, I agree. After all, Joseph Smith studied many religions and doctrine before his first vision. It's the "minus the guideposts" as you put it, that is the problem. If the "turn right" guidepost is missing when you do your comparison, it takes you in a different direction. .... and I wasn't trying to make a logic versus mystery argument, was more trying to make the partial logic versus partial logic argument, like the blindmen comparing the different parts of the elephant. Comparing the trunk to the ear is not really comparing. As you know, LDS believe there are parts of the gospel missing from the bible and you can be turned away from it because the description of the ear says nothing about the leg, so to speak. Besides, we have the Apostles "touching the elephant" right now, so to speak.

[prisonchaplain]

Seminary...okay, yes I understand your analogy, and your point now. On the other hand, if I'm not mistaken, it's common for LDS to say that the Bible, and indeed any religious background can be helpful in preparing one for the Gospel. President Hinckley encouraged all people of good will to bring the good they had with them to the Church. So, imho, it's not necessary to discourage someone from studying what they know to help them discern what you or I want to teach them. I'd even suggest that a knowledgeable Muslim has much that can be useful to help him/her understand the Christian message.

[sixpacktr]

I think the God has a plan for each of us individually. Perhaps He knows that "Bill" would have a harder time coming close to Him as a Mormon. So if "Bill" Prays about the Book of Mormon the God would not give him a witness of it's truthfullness. But since God knows "Bill" better than he knows himself God would know that Bill can come closer to Him as a Muslim. So when "Bill" learns about the Quran and prays about it God confirms to him that the Quran is true.

Does that mean the Book of Mormon is not true? No. It just means that for "Bill", Islam is a better path.

Ephesians 4:11-13

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

God didn't give everybody the same thing. He knows we are different and so he gave some things unto some people. And it is this way for the perfecting of the saints, work of the ministry, and edifying of teh body of Christ. And it will be this way until the times comes that there s a unity of faith and unity of a knowledge of the Son of God.

So while God may lead people to different paths right now. There will come a time when we are all united together. God will lead the different paths together.

So for me it is not so much what we know, but rather what we do with what we know. We find a similiar line of thinking in the parable of the talents.

Des,

I understand what you are saying, but I just don't think that God works in that way, telling some of his 'chosen' ones that the LDS faith is true (for PC, he will probably feel that those that are in his faith are the 'chosen' ones. I am simply using it as an example), while others he lets believe 'lesser' or 'other' things because that is all they can handle.

We who are on the earth all chose Christ and his plan in the pre-existence. I don't think we decided that Islam would be better for us in this life than the Gospel of Christ. I think that it is thru the craftiness of men, the deceptions of Satan and the like that have led to the schisms in religion we have, as well as people getting different answers.

We have been told that we need to have the Spirit with us to discern what is really true (the last conference was chock full of talks telling us to get the Spirit). Within and without the church, this is a HUGE issue, mainly because we are so 'advanced' now that we can explain a lot of things away with science (or at least, our understanding of science). Christ himself stated that the Spirit was the only true witness, and that while you could deny Christ as a man, if the Spirit bore witness to you of his divinity and THEN you denied him, it was a bad, bad thing.

I believe that if you're a Catholic, you should be the best Catholic you can be. But when the Spirit comes and tells you that the LDS church gives you the answers you were looking for, then you need ot respond to that prompting and move forward. We will all be judged according to the light we have rec'd thru this life, but we will not be allowed to continue in that lesser light. We will need to embrace the greater light when it is given us in order to progress.

So I don't think that the various religions are on the earth because our HF knew all of this children wouldn't be able to handle the full truth so he prepared a way for them to gain some knowledge. Satan used men, some deceptive men and some that were doing the best with the light that they had, to create other religions that taught 'a form of godliness but denied the power thereof'.

just mho...

[Misshalfway]

I think the ability to discern spirits is the key.

There is no doubt that truth is hard to discern. It doesn't always post itself on street signs. And there is no doubt in my mind that there are forces out there that will confuse and flatter and decieve even the best of men. I think it is easy to see how someone can become convinced that something is true when it really isn't.

With regards to the trinity/godhead question.........I wonder if the spirit is testifying of parts of the doctrines that are correct. I see that sometimes the spirit will teach one idea, yet we humans take that one feeling and blanket it over lots of things.

Everyone must live according to the dictates of conscience. It isn't my job to figure out truth for everyone or to dictate it either. I'll let God sort it all out.

[HiJolly]

Most who read me here know that, as a Protestant, I am somewhat unique in my openness to spiritual confirmation. I find it fruitful and valid to seek the Holy Spirit's direction and approval for spiritual truth, and even for daily decisions.

But what happens when the spirit seems wrong? For example, if I were to tell you I prayed about the truth of the LDS Godhead teaching, vs. the Trinity, and felt a burning truth about your doctrine, you'd easily say, "Amen--whatever it costs you, PC, follow the spirit."

What of the reverse though? What if you were praying on this matter, and you sensed that maybe the historic teaching on the Trinity were true? You are shocked, and cannot believe this. So you pray more, but feel only more confirmation--the Trinity is true.

When this happens to me, I take a step back, meditate on the question, and look for evidences to help clarify the situation. If the conclusion is contrary to what my church (LDS) teaches, I quietly believe what I think the spirit has led me to believe. I allow inspiration to clarify/overturn my conclusion on the same basis, whenever it may come. I do not stress (well, not anymore (much)) over ambiguity, knowing that faith is not to 'know'.

More examples: I know of a Nazarene chaplain who became Catholic because, during a retreat, he was in deep prayer, and smelt roses while in his room. He prayed on the meaning, and sensed that it was the presence of Mary, Mother of God.

I would say it is quite likely that this fellow needed to make a change, and that the perception of rose scent allowed him to make the change in an honest way, without jeapordizing his sense of committment and 'right action'. With integrity intact, if you will.

Some early Pentecostals were reading Acts 2:38, and felt compelled to rebaptize everyone in the name of Jesus only. There were great spiritual manifestations and confirmations reported. However, the end result was a huge schism in the pentecostal movement, as this faction developed by rejecting the Trinity in favor of modalism (Jesus is Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

There is often a kind of dichotomy between the many and the one. While religions, churches, sects, denominations etc. are useful and valid (most, I suppose, are valid in this sense) for the growth and spiritual development of their membership, nevertheless the most vital growth and development MUST be individual in nature, as led and nurtured by the Holy Spirit.

The distinctions between Trinitarianism, Modalism, Henotheism etc. etc. (ad nauseum) are often injurious to our souls, and divisive in the Body of Christ.

Then, of course, many ex-Mormons do claim that they felt uneasy with their LDS faith, that the spirits troubled them. The more they prayed, the more urgently they felt the need to leave.

Some take this reality and condemn any reliance on "spiritual feelings." Others say doctrine cannot be trusted--just follow the spirit. Most, imho, use their church's teaching as a benchmark, and the further a teaching or spiritual sense strays, the more strongly they "test the spirit." THOUGHTS?

Excellent thoughts. We all live by faith, yet seek guidance (if not marching orders) from one thing (person?) or another.

We are emotional creatures, ultimately. We are affected by logic, reason, psychology, emotion, childhood, and more. We live in a world where science (evidence) wars with belief.

Freemasons are taught, when raised to the third degree of Master Mason (Blue lodge) that the key is "balance". Balance intuition with evidence, emotion with logic, personal desire with godly covenant.

The Bible says the devil can appear as an angel of light.

There are no easy answers, is what I think. The sense of 'knowing' or 'testimony' that we all seek in our lives is a very important thing, that is influenced by much more than the conscious mind.

I think the Psalmist had the greatest insight to all this when he answered the question of who will obtain Godliness:

Psalm 24:4 (NAS) He who has clean hands and a pure heart, Who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood And has not sworn deceitfully.

Our own psychosis (guilt, if you will) distorts whatever directions we receive from God. Thus the need for clean hands (righteousness, however we define it) and a pure heart (honesty, integrity, childish trust).

So. Trust God. Overcome the natural man. Follow what you perceive to be 'right'. As you say, PC, if you step outside the 'norm' of your tradition, take care and test the Spirit as you proceed.

HiJolly

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think there is a difference between following the light of Christ that is in everybody and following the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Both can be described as feelings or promptings and can be strong. The iron rod, though, is straight, I don't think it has curves or has branching points. And I don't think there are more than one iron rods. In fact, the people in the large building keep telling the people holding onto the rod to let go and take a different path. The Holy Spirit would never tell you to let go of the iron rod.

PC said; "But what happens when the spirit seems wrong? For example, if I were to tell you I prayed about the truth of the LDS Godhead teaching, vs. the Trinity, and felt a burning truth about your doctrine, you'd easily say, "Amen--whatever it costs you, PC, follow the spirit." ...

One way to know that it is the Holy Spirit's promptings is that it would not "seem wrong." To me, at least, that is the definition of the promptings from the Holy Spirit, that it feels 100% right, there is no doubt. If it is less than that, I would suggest that it is just a feeling from within, and then if you acted on it and prayed about it, you may get a confirmation from the Holy Spirit, then again you may not. For me, I would say, I have only had that kind of confirmation in my life maybe a handful of times.

[prisonchaplain]

Seminary, your last post (#17) is the answer, imho. So often we sense directions, inclinations, promptings, but rather than pray through to spiritual certainty, we tend to run with the ones we like, and reject as self-initiated the ones we don't. But, when God leads and we know that we know that we know, then nothing will deter us, and we will not be tossed about by every wave of doctrine.

[Misshalfway]

Do you think it is possible for God to allow us to hold on to half truths or maybe even complete wrongs until we are ready or until our mission in that head space is complete?

I don't believe that God gives one set of truth to this group and another to that group. But I wonder about allowing persons or groups to live in limited understanding for a time.

[prisonchaplain]

God allows or permits much that He does not favor or approve of.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Do you think it is possible for God to allow us to hold on to half truths or maybe even complete wrongs until we are ready or until our mission in that head space is complete?

I don't believe that God gives one set of truth to this group and another to that group. But I wonder about allowing persons or groups to live in limited understanding for a time.

In my opinion, I don't think God wants you to learn wrong. He may have to teach you 'addition' before you learn 'calculus'. But I wouldn't call 'addition' a half-truth. It's just not the fullness of truth. And I agree with allowing persons or groups to live in limited understanding for a period of time. If I recall correctly, the scriptures give examples of 'precious truths' that are not revealed to a people because they are not ready for them. Even now we are living in a time of limited understanding. We have the welfare program for example instead of the law of consecration.

[Hemidakota]

Most who read me here know that, as a Protestant, I am somewhat unique in my openness to spiritual confirmation. I find it fruitful and valid to seek the Holy Spirit's direction and approval for spiritual truth, and even for daily decisions.

But what happens when the spirit seems wrong? For example, if I were to tell you I prayed about the truth of the LDS Godhead teaching, vs. the Trinity, and felt a burning truth about your doctrine, you'd easily say, "Amen--whatever it costs you, PC, follow the spirit."

What of the reverse though? What if you were praying on this matter, and you sensed that maybe the historic teaching on the Trinity were true? You are shocked, and cannot believe this. So you pray more, but feel only more confirmation--the Trinity is true.

More examples: I know of a Nazarene chaplain who became Catholic because, during a retreat, he was in deep prayer, and smelt roses while in his room. He prayed on the meaning, and sensed that it was the presence of Mary, Mother of God.

Some early Pentecostals were reading Acts 2:38, and felt compelled to rebaptize everyone in the name of Jesus only. There were great spiritual manifestations and confirmations reported. However, the end result was a huge schism in the pentecostal movement, as this faction developed by rejecting the Trinity in favor of modalism (Jesus is Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

Then, of course, many ex-Mormons do claim that they felt uneasy with their LDS faith, that the spirits troubled them. The more they prayed, the more urgently they felt the need to leave.

Some take this reality and condemn any reliance on "spiritual feelings." Others say doctrine cannot be trusted--just follow the spirit. Most, imho, use their church's teaching as a benchmark, and the further a teaching or spiritual sense strays, the more strongly they "test the spirit." THOUGHTS?

We need to remember here, there is nothing EVIL is able to bring to one soul good feelings or a confirmation of the Holy Ghost. These feelings cannot be fake.

If there is a self-doubt of ones feeling, always go back asking for a Holy Ghost confirmation.

[Misshalfway]

In my opinion, I don't think God wants you to learn wrong. He may have to teach you 'addition' before you learn 'calculus'. But I wouldn't call 'addition' a half-truth. It's just not the fullness of truth. And I agree with allowing persons or groups to live in limited understanding for a period of time. If I recall correctly, the scriptures give examples of 'precious truths' that are not revealed to a people because they are not ready for them. Even now we are living in a time of limited understanding. We have the welfare program for example instead of the law of consecration.

I wonder though if that means that man lives in error for a time......or maybe at least that we have to use our best judgment which may very well lead to error until the windows of Heaven open to clarify. I wonder about things like the priesthood and the blacks. (that seems to be on my mind lately.) I was watching a show on PBS made by Darius Gray, a black member about the blacks and the church. It seems the church was left with some erroneous ideas about blacks for a long time. It seems Joseph Smith saw it differently than Brigham. And even Bruce R. said he got it wrong because his understanding was limited. Clearly God and the church has course corrected today. But I wonder about what wisdom God sees in letting people stumble in darkness for a time. I mean, we claim to be the true Church of Christ, yet we have some false folklore that I still think we need to correct in the minds of some of our people. I guess I would like to understand the wisdom of that process from God's point of view.

(not derailing this thread on the black/priesthood issue. Just an example.)

Edited October 13, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think about these same things. I think the core curriculum does not include extra-credit, in other words I think we can all do more than the minimal requirements to reach Eternal Life for that dispensation. I think that a person will be judged by the commandments of the day and not some other standard. I won't be punished for not doing animal sacrifice like Adam or Noah. Or be punished for not giving everything I own to the Bishop like the saints of Missouri were asked to do. I think this is why the true church has to having living Prophets and Apostles who communicate with God to let us know what is considered "living in error" or not. Thankfully the Apostles tell my husband not to look at internet pornography otherwise he might say; "the original Apostles said nothing about the internet." (just teasing ... he reads my posts sometimes, I know he wouldn't do that) ... this is actually a good point ... I don't think we always have to have our own discerning spirits, we can rely on the discerning spirits of the Prophet and Apostles. I think if we do what the Prophet and Apostles say we don't have to worry about living in error.