Rider Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) I'm a Protestant and I've always been interested in learning about other faiths. After talking with some LDS, I wanted to do more research and I found an article by Elder Joseph Wirthlin, LDS.org - Ensign Article - Christians in Belief and Action The article was helpful in some ways, but also very confusing. I'll give you a few quotes to explain.A dictionary defines a Christian as “one who professes belief in Jesus as the Christ or follows the religion based on [the life and teachings of Jesus],” and “one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.” Thus two characteristics identify Christians: (1) they profess belief in a Savior, and (2) they act in harmony with the Savior’s teachings.I completely agree with that definition and statement.Wirthlin then goes on to list the four principles of the gospel, which show how LDS are Christians according to that definition. I also believe the first and second principle of the gospel he lists, which are 'faith in the Lord Jesus Christ' and 'repentance.' Here are the third and forth principles:Our faith in the Lord moves us to the third principle of the gospel, which is “baptism by immersion for the remission of sins” by one who has priesthood authority. The Savior commanded that we all must be born again: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Latter-day Saints accept baptism as an essential saving ordinance that is required of all people. Through baptism we covenant to take upon us the Lord’s name and honor it by keeping His commandments. He, in turn, promises us the guiding and enlightening presence of His Spirit. The fourth principle of the gospel is the “laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.”I don't believe in either of those principles. According to Wirthlin's definition, I'm not a Christian.Do you agree with Wirthlin that those principles are essential to being a Christian? If so, do you believe I can be a Christian if I don't follow some of those principles? Edited October 15, 2009 by Rider
Just_A_Guy Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 Do you agree with Wirthlin that those principles are essential to being a Christian? If so, do you believe I can be a Christian if I don't follow some of those principles?No. I think he felt those principles are essential to our version of Christianity. We believe our version of Christianity to be the only one that is completely, doctrinally accurate--but it does not follow that non-Mormons are non-Christians.Mormons aren't into trying to define other people out of Christianity, though we expend a lot of time and effort into trying to define ourselves into Christianity. (Ironically, we do get pretty touchy about breakaway groups passing themselves off as Mormons--but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.)
James_Fryman Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins by one of priesthood authority is required, even Jesus Himself went to John the Baptist to get baptized and I think God would want you to be baptized by someone he approved of, which would be by someone with the priesthood and the Laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost sounds reasonable to me because he communicates to his children with the still small voice, the holy ghost, Elijah learned this after the challenge to the false priests. Edited October 15, 2009 by James_Fryman
Rider Posted October 15, 2009 Author Report Posted October 15, 2009 No. I think he felt those principles are essential to our version of Christianity. We believe our version of Christianity to be the only one that is completely, doctrinally accurate--but it does not follow that non-Mormons are non-Christians.Mormons aren't into trying to define other people out of Christianity, though we expend a lot of time and effort into trying to define ourselves into Christianity. (Ironically, we do get pretty touchy about breakaway groups passing themselves off as Mormons--but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.)Wirthlin starts off the article buy saying, "Some people erroneously believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members are not Christian. We have difficulty understanding why anyone could accept and promote an idea that is so far from the truth." I doesn't sound like he's just talking about your version of Christianity. He never makes a distinction between different versions of Christianity.If he was saying 'This is what our version of Christianity is,' then it would make sense. But he seems to be saying 'This is what a Christian is.'Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins by one of priesthood authority is required, even Jesus Himself went to John the Baptist to get baptised and I think God would want you to be baptised by someone he aproved of, which would be by someone with the priesthood and the Laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost sounds reasonable to me because he communactes to his children with the still small voice, the holy ghost, eleigh learned this after the challenge to the false priests.So if it's required, then wouldn't that mean I'm not a Christian because I haven't been baptized for the remission of my sins?
lattelady Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 JustAGuy, it seems like it would only make sense that a non-Mormon would not be considered Christian by a Latter Day Saint. If those four principles are essential to your version of Christianity, and yours is the only one that is doctrinally accurate, then if I weren't baptized by someone with priesthood authority for the remission of sins, and if I didn't have hands laid on me for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, then you would have to admit that you wouldn't consider me a Christian, nor would the LDS church; I'm not saying that the LDS church is TRYING to define other denominations out of Christianity, but those four principles essentially define many mainstream Christians out of the LDS terms of Christianity.
prisonchaplain Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 Well...everyone sounds logical enough, but at least I was considered Christian enough to get this cush job as a moderator. :-)
pam Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) I think you are misrepresenting or misinterpreting what Elder Wirthlin said. In the first part of his talk his defines what a Christian is. You've already stated you have no problem with the definition. The next thing you quoted that you seem to have a problem with is under the category of his talk: "How we Live our Lives." This was not included in his definition of what a Christian is. All he is reemphasizing is how we as LDS live our lives or at least how we should be living our lives. No where in his talk do I take his comments to mean that just because you aren't baptized into the LDS Church or by someone who has authority (as we believe) that you aren't a Christian. Edited October 15, 2009 by pam
Just_A_Guy Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 Call it cognitive dissonance if you must; but the point is that no, we don't look at non-Mormons as non-Christian. Elder Wirthlin himself would have been one of the last men on earth to have made such a leap. :)
Misshalfway Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 JustAGuy, it seems like it would only make sense that a non-Mormon would not be considered Christian by a Latter Day Saint. If those four principles are essential to your version of Christianity, and yours is the only one that is doctrinally accurate, then if I weren't baptized by someone with priesthood authority for the remission of sins, and if I didn't have hands laid on me for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, then you would have to admit that you wouldn't consider me a Christian, nor would the LDS church; I'm not saying that the LDS church is TRYING to define other denominations out of Christianity, but those four principles essentially define many mainstream Christians out of the LDS terms of Christianity.I can see how a non-mormon might make this assumption but I hope to assure you and the OP that this really isn't how we see things at all. For example....we believe that all people on the planet believe in the same God even though they may call that God by different names. I think we view "Christians" the same way. We believe in the same Jesus who was born in Bethlehem and died on the cross even though we may understand Him differently. I hope you can see that Elder Wirthlin is trying to address those of the Christian world to understand that we believe in Jesus as well and therefore can be called Christians and this is why-- something that is difficult for many to accept. He's saying "Hey! We're Christians too." He's not drawing lines in the sand.
Rider Posted October 15, 2009 Author Report Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) I think you are misrepresenting or misinterpreting what Elder Wirthlin said. In the first part of his talk his defines what a Christian is. You've already stated you have no problem with the definition.The next thing you quoted that you seem to have a problem with is under the category of his talk: "How we Live our Lives." This was not included in his definition of what a Christian is.All he is reemphasizing is how we as LDS live our lives or at least how we shold be living our lives.No where in his talk do I take his comments to mean that just because you aren't baptized into the LDS Church or by someone who has authority (as we believe) that you aren't a Christian.Let's look at his article again. Here is the full paragraph with the definition:A dictionary defines a Christian as “one who professes belief in Jesus as the Christ or follows the religion based on [the life and teachings of Jesus],” and “one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.” 3 Thus two characteristics identify Christians: (1) they profess belief in a Savior, and (2) they act in harmony with the Savior’s teachings. Faithful members of the Church, called Saints or Latter-day Saints, qualify clearly in both characteristics. In our belief and our action, we demonstrate that “Jesus Christ himself [is] the chief corner stone” of our faith.Wirthlin sums up the definition in two words, 'belief' and 'action'. He spends the rest of the article backing up that last sentence. The next section is called, 'Our Profession of Belief,' which has the first principle. The second section is called 'How We Live Our Lives.' He brings the definition back up by saying this:To repeat, by definition a Christian not only professes belief in the Savior, but a Christian lives and acts according to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ.He then describes that living and acting by listing the other three principles. So, according to the article, the only way to live and act according to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ, is to follow those principles.If this is true, how can I be a Christian? Edited October 15, 2009 by Rider
Misshalfway Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 If this is true, how can I be a Christian?It is my understanding that the definition of "Christian" is often defined by one who believes in the Trinity. So, on these grounds, Mormons don't qualify because we believe that The Father and The Son are two separate beings and are flesh and bone. He is trying to use the dictionary and other definitions to show that LDS's do indeed belong in the catagory of Christian.I am finding it interesting that you are struggling so much with his statements. Didn't Jesus teach baptism and didn't he give the Holy Spirit ? If a person believes that Jesus died for their sins and they try to live a Christlike life according to their best understanding, how could anyone exclude them as a believer?
pam Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 In our belief and our action, we demonstrate that “Jesus Christ himself [is] the chief corner stone” of our faith. Okay so let's take a look again at this statement. Notices he says "our." Again as MissHalfway explained..he is trying to show how we as LDS could also be termed as a Christian. That Christ is the chief cornerstone of our faith.To repeat, by definition a Christian not only professes belief in the Savior, but a Christian lives and acts according to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ. Do you have a problem with this statement just as it is?Our faith in the Lord moves us to the third principle of the gospel, which is “baptism by immersion for the remission of sins” by one who has priesthood authority. 31 The Savior commanded that we all must be born again: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” 32 Latter-day Saints accept baptism as an essential saving ordinance that is required of all people. This comment by Elder Wirthlin is only showing that we believe in baptism. Just as Christ was baptized we believe in the importance of it. As well as many other religions. Perhaps the added factor of being confirmed by the laying on of hands is peculiar to our faith. Even so..I still see nothing in his talk that would state he thought than anyone having a faith and a belief in Christ and who follows the commandments and lives his/her life by following Christ would not be considered a Christian.I can't answer for Elder Wirthlin and what HIS exact thoughts are. Nor can I ask him or inquire of him what his thoughts are. If I could...I am 100% sure he would not say that LDS would be the only religion to be considered Christians.
lattelady Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) I was baptized when I was eight by my dad, who is a pastor; but my baptism wasn't for the remission of my sins--it was out of obedience because Jesus commanded it as outward expression and representation of my inward faith. And I never had anyone lay hands on me to receive the Holy Spirit, but I believe I received the gift of the Holy Spirit when I trusted in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Would that be acceptable, in the Mormon church's eyes, to become part of the Church? I believe there is still a difference in the Church's eyes. Edited October 15, 2009 by lattelady
Just_A_Guy Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 If this is true, how can I be a Christian?If you're asking how you can get Mormons subjectively to view you as a Christian--you're most likely already there.If you're asking how you can become a "Christian" in the sense of following the doctrinally accurate gospel of Christ (as Mormons perceive it) - repent, and be baptized by one holding the proper priesthood authority, and then receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit (again by the ministration of one holding the proper priesthood authority); and then endure to the end having faith in Christ.
Just_A_Guy Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 I was baptized when I was eight by my dad, who is a pastor; and I never had anyone lay hands on me to receive the Holy Spirit, but I believe I received the gift of the Holy Spirit when I trusted in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Would that be acceptable, in the Mormon church's eyes, to become part of the Church? I believe there is still a difference in the Church's eyes.To become part of the Mormon church, no; because Mormonism believes that priesthood (authority to baptize) has to be passed from one righteous person to another; and Mormonism teaches that that chain of authority was broken within the first couple of centuries after the death of Christ.
pam Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 I was baptized when I was eight by my dad, who is a pastor; but my baptism wasn't for the remission of my sins--it was out of obedience because Jesus commanded it as outward expression and representation of my inward faith. And I never had anyone lay hands on me to receive the Holy Spirit, but I believe I received the gift of the Holy Spirit when I trusted in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Would that be acceptable, in the Mormon church's eyes, to become part of the Church? I believe there is still a difference in the Church's eyes. Are you asking if that is acceptable to be a member of the LDS Church?
Misshalfway Posted October 15, 2009 Report Posted October 15, 2009 I was baptized when I was eight by my dad, who is a pastor; and I never had anyone lay hands on me to receive the Holy Spirit, but I believe I received the gift of the Holy Spirit when I trusted in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Would that be acceptable, in the Mormon church's eyes, to become part of the Church? I believe there is still a difference in the Church's eyes.You are right that there would be an issue with membership, but that wouldn't make you a non Christian. In our minds, belief in Christ is what constitutes a Christian in terms of the demographic title. A true Christian....a really converted one would experience a change of heart and behavior. We don't believe that the mormon church is the only place where these sorts of changes can happen. We believe that God is working throughout this earth with all of his children in his wisdom and there is truth given to many. We also believe the church of Jesus needing restoring.....as doctrine and important ordinances were lost. So we invite everyone to come and learn more and bring your truth and your testimony with you.
lattelady Posted October 16, 2009 Report Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) I'm not sure where to find the quote, but I remember reading that the Prophet Joseph Smith said that the church needed to be restored because God told him that all other churches were wrong and all their creeds were an "abomination" in His eyes. If that's true, then it seems like the LDS church would view other churches as non-Christian. Don't you, as LDS, believe that your church is the one true church? Edited October 16, 2009 by lattelady
pam Posted October 16, 2009 Report Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) When Christ was alive he called his twelve apostles and gave them the authority to act in his name. Except for John the Beloved they were all martyred. Over time because there was not this authority given by Christ upon the earth, truths were lost. The Church as set up by Jesus Christ was lost. By the early 1800's, there was a religious excitement sweeping through. All kinds of religions were bying for the membership of the people. Joseph Smith's family were caught up in this. Yet Joseph Smith felt confused since they were all professing to be the "one." (I'm trying to condense this) Joseph Smith after reading James 1:5 prayed that he might know which church was the right one to join. In a vision he was told to join none of them. Again, there is NOTHING that would indicate that the LDS Church views other religions as non Christians. Yes we do believe that we are the one Church that holds all the truths. While many religions hold truth, we believe we hold all of them. Edited October 16, 2009 by pam typo
Rider Posted October 16, 2009 Author Report Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) I'll rephrase my question. Do you believe Jesus taught baptism is required for the remission of sins? If so, do you believe following that teaching is required to be a Christian? If so, how could I be a Christian since I don't believe that? Edited October 16, 2009 by Rider
lattelady Posted October 16, 2009 Report Posted October 16, 2009 The thing that would cause me to think that the LDS church views other churches as non-Christian is that Joseph Smith said God told him all other churches' creeds were an abomination--the whole reason that the LDS church needed to be started/founded.
pam Posted October 16, 2009 Report Posted October 16, 2009 I believe that baptism is required to enter the highest kingdom of glory. I don't believe that it is required to be a Christian.
pam Posted October 16, 2009 Report Posted October 16, 2009 The thing that would cause me to think that the LDS church views other churches as non-Christian is that Joseph Smith said God told him all other churches' creeds were an abomination--the whole reason that the LDS church needed to be started/founded. You may believe what you want. The Church of Jesus Christ does not believe that members of other religions who follow Christ are not Christians.
john doe Posted October 16, 2009 Report Posted October 16, 2009 A dictionary defines a Christian as “one who professes belief in Jesus as the Christ or follows the religion based on [the life and teachings of Jesus],” and “one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.” Thus two characteristics identify Christians: (1) they profess belief in a Savior, and (2) they act in harmony with the Savior’s teachings.Do you do these two things? If you do, then as his speech said, it would identify as a Christian. Now quit making mountains out of molehills.
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