Changes to John 3:16

[lattelady]

Traveler:

Romans 1:16&17--"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is writted, 'BUT THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.'"

I see from those verses that in the New Testament (just as the Old!), we are justified by faith. It doesn't say, "The righteous man shall live by the commandments." It is by faith.

Romans 9:30-33 "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, EVEN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS BY FAITH; but Israel, pursuing a LAW of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by FAITH, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, 'Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who BELIEVES in Him will not be disappointed.'"

**The people of Israel stumbled over Jesus because He was telling them, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." They wanted to pursue righteousness by keeping the commandments and He was telling them that they had to believe in Him, and it offended them.

Galatians 3:10&11 "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is writted, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.' Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, 'The righteous man shall live by faith."

I will say AGAIN that I believe we are to seek to live a Christ-like life, not in our own power, but in the strength provided by the Holy Spirit that lives in us when we put our trust in Him for salvation. We should be "zealous for good deeds" as it says in Titus, but not because it earns anything for ME, but because it brings God glory and in doing those good works I live up to the name I bear: Christ-follower. I believe that there is NOTHING I could do EVER to make God love me more than He loves me right this very minute, and NOTHING that I could EVER do that could make God love me any less than He loves me right now.

[Snow]

Traveler:

Romans 1:16&17--"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is writted, 'BUT THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.'"

I see from those verses that in the New Testament (just as the Old!), we are justified by faith. It doesn't say, "The righteous man shall live by the commandments." It is by faith.

Romans 9:30-33 "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, EVEN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS BY FAITH; but Israel, pursuing a LAW of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by FAITH, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, 'Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who BELIEVES in Him will not be disappointed.'"

**The people of Israel stumbled over Jesus because He was telling them, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." They wanted to pursue righteousness by keeping the commandments and He was telling them that they had to believe in Him, and it offended them.

Galatians 3:10&11 "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is writted, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.' Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, 'The righteous man shall live by faith."

I will say AGAIN that I believe we are to seek to live a Christ-like life, not in our own power, but in the strength provided by the Holy Spirit that lives in us when we put our trust in Him for salvation. We should be "zealous for good deeds" as it says in Titus, but not because it earns anything for ME, but because it brings God glory and in doing those good works I live up to the name I bear: Christ-follower. I believe that there is NOTHING I could do EVER to make God love me more than He loves me right this very minute, and NOTHING that I could EVER do that could make God love me any less than He loves me right now.

I ask again - how do you justify picking and choosing which scriptures to believe and completely ignoring scriptures that clearly say that obedience is required?

[Justice]

So, yes, we do believe that true conversion results in good performance outcomes. However, we see that as the effects of the relationship, rather than a series of standards we bear out of terror that we might not measure up.

But why does it have to be out of terror? Why not out of love and hope?

[Justice]

I see from those verses that in the New Testament (just as the Old!), we are justified by faith. It doesn't say, "The righteous man shall live by the commandments." It is by faith.

But, what if faith was dead without works?

How can we be justified by faith if we had no works?

In order to have faith you must live by the commandments. The scriptures are very plain about this. Where people get hung up is they think since they can't live them perfectly then they can't be saved.

Once again, God instituted repentance because He knew we would not live them perfectly.

Repentance brings about forgiveness. If you sin then sincerely repent you are forgiven. When you are forgiven it is as if you are living the commandments perfectly.

To say the commandments are good but not necessary is dangerous doctrine. A commandment is a commandment... not a good suggestion.

[Carl62]

I will say AGAIN that I believe we are to seek to live a Christ-like life, not in our own power, but in the strength provided by the Holy Spirit that lives in us when we put our trust in Him for salvation. We should be "zealous for good deeds" as it says in Titus, but not because it earns anything for ME, but because it brings God glory and in doing those good works I live up to the name I bear: Christ-follower. I believe that there is NOTHING I could do EVER to make God love me more than He loves me right this very minute, and NOTHING that I could EVER do that could make God love me any less than He loves me right now.

I have no problem with that and I'd like to think that most Mormons do adhere to that as well. However, it does say that at some point we will be judged "according to our works" so that is why LDS may put just a bit more emphasis on the works part of it being equal with having faith vs. most mainstream Evangelical style churches who say that faith (only?) is what's required for salvation, and that works are essentially "secondary". But a hand isn't a hand unless it has the fingers to help do the work with it. Without the fingers, all you have is a palm which is pretty much limited to doing next to nothing. You have to have the palm (faith) with the fingers (works) to complete any kind of real action with your hand. One without the other is useless. That's how we view the "faith without works" part of salvation. You simply can't have one without the other or else the whole hand is "dead".

[Snow]

lattelady,

Can I, an atheist on Monday, have faith in Christ this evening; smoke crack tomorrow; shoot my landlord on Weds, steal from old ladies on Thursday, kick the cat on Friday, die of a thromboembolism on Saturday and still be saved on Sunday?

[Maureen]

lattelady,

Can I, an atheist on Monday, have faith in Christ this evening; smoke crack tomorrow; shoot my landlord on Weds, steal from old ladies on Thursday, kick the cat on Friday, die of a thromboembolism on Saturday and still be saved on Sunday?

If you had faith in Christ, you wouldn't be an atheist.

M.

[Misshalfway]

Is doing the will of God "earning"?

Is a person saved in sin, or from sin?

If a person obey's God, do they become righteous? If a person loves and serves, are they themselves loving and selfless?

Does love excuse free will?

If the keeping of commandments does nothing to promote salvation, then why would sin compromise it?

Why would the Bible spend page after page commanding discipline inside of the behavior of the children of men if all these efforts meant nothing to their salvation?

"Go thy way and sin no more." Who has the responsibility to sin no more? Did the Savior say go thy way and don't worry about sin because just justified you?

"Not everyone that sayeth unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven; be he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matt 7:21

Believing is important but only because it helps us to have faith in the will of the Lord so that we will do it. What good is salvation if there is no obedience? Who wants to be saved into a sinful state? Where is the joy or blessing or peace in that? I want my sins gone. I want my nature changed. I see nothing in the scriptures that teaches that Jesus spent his life teaching that my nature could be changed any other way but thru faith and obedience and repentance and faith that his sacrifice met the demands of justice thru mercy. I have to participate in my own salvation or Christ can't save me. Is that earning? No. It's trusting that if I open the door the savior will come in. Faith and works absolutely can't be separated. They are fundamentally intertwined. One can't have one without the other and be saved.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Traveler]

Traveler:

Romans 1:16&17--"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is writted, 'BUT THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.'"

I see from those verses that in the New Testament (just as the Old!), we are justified by faith. It doesn't say, "The righteous man shall live by the commandments." It is by faith.

Romans 9:30-33 "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, EVEN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS BY FAITH; but Israel, pursuing a LAW of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by FAITH, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, 'Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who BELIEVES in Him will not be disappointed.'"

**The people of Israel stumbled over Jesus because He was telling them, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." They wanted to pursue righteousness by keeping the commandments and He was telling them that they had to believe in Him, and it offended them.

Galatians 3:10&11 "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is writted, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.' Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, 'The righteous man shall live by faith."

I will say AGAIN that I believe we are to seek to live a Christ-like life, not in our own power, but in the strength provided by the Holy Spirit that lives in us when we put our trust in Him for salvation. We should be "zealous for good deeds" as it says in Titus, but not because it earns anything for ME, but because it brings God glory and in doing those good works I live up to the name I bear: Christ-follower. I believe that there is NOTHING I could do EVER to make God love me more than He loves me right this very minute, and NOTHING that I could EVER do that could make God love me any less than He loves me right now.

Interesting but off topic - I keep asking but you seem to be incapable of hearing. In truth I do agree with a lot of what you are saying but I am actually trying to make sure that there really is a point of disagreement in our doctrines. You seem to be avoiding the only concept I am trying to understand and that is my real concern. Both that you do not seem to understand the question and second that I think you are clinging to a false belief and understanding of scripture. I would like to be certain before I draw my conclusions.

If you would put all the other concepts and doctrines aside - I think we can agree with all that stuff. Please respond on topic to the two questions below and provide all the scriptures you like about these questions.

My only two questions at this point:

1. Do you believe that the scriptures teach that there are or are not any eternal (beyond this life) consequences for not keeping the commandments?

2. Do you believe that the scriptures teach that there are or are not any eternal benefits (beyond this life) for keeping the commandments?

Thank you

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

But why does it have to be out of terror? Why not out of love and hope?

Because...what if I didnt make it? What if I did not, in the end, do all that I could? The uncertainty is terrifying. NO?

[prisonchaplain]

lattelady,

Can I, an atheist on Monday, have faith in Christ this evening; smoke crack tomorrow; shoot my landlord on Weds, steal from old ladies on Thursday, kick the cat on Friday, die of a thromboembolism on Saturday and still be saved on Sunday?

Not likely.

[lattelady]

Traveler: (you asked me:

"Are there any eternal consequences for a believer if they do not keep the commandments?" No. No one CAN keep all the commandments.

"Are there any eternal benefits for a believer if they do keep the commandments?" Yes, but then no. I believe we receive rewards ("crowns") for good works that were done, not in our own strength, but in God's strength while on this earth (1 Corin. 3:11-15), but we will turn right around and lay those crowns at Jesus' feet, because we will give Him all the glory for what He has done for us. It was Him that gave us the ability to do good works in the first place.

"I will not boast in anything, no gift, no power, no wisdom; but I will boast in Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection."

There are the answers I guess you've been looking for.

[Traveler]

Traveler: (you asked me:

"Are there any eternal consequences for a believer if they do not keep the commandments?" No. No one CAN keep all the commandments.

"Are there any eternal benefits for a believer if they do keep the commandments?" Yes, but then no. I believe we receive rewards ("crowns") for good works that were done, not in our own strength, but in God's strength while on this earth (1 Corin. 3:11-15), but we will turn right around and lay those crowns at Jesus' feet, because we will give Him all the glory for what He has done for us. It was Him that gave us the ability to do good works in the first place.

"I will not boast in anything, no gift, no power, no wisdom; but I will boast in Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection."

There are the answers I guess you've been looking for.

I think we may be making some progress. I would like to ask you some questions – please try not to be alarmed if the questions seem to probe. I want to make sure I understand your religion. We started out worlds apart and I think I am starting to see and understand some things but there are things that do not make sense to me.

To my first question you answered:

"Are there any eternal consequences for a believer if they do not keep the commandments?" No. No one CAN keep all the commandments.

Is it your understanding that according to scripture that a believer cannot keep all the commandments? It might help if you let me know which commandment cannot be kept – since all the commandments can be summarized into two commandments; which one is your personal over the top problem. I understand that you believe all things are not really possible to them that believe especially keeping the commandments (which all are in the two to love G-d and our neighbor). This is a very important notion for me to understand that in your religion you belief even with the assistance of G-d and the spirit of G-d a believer cannot possibly have complete faith in the commandments to be lived or even tried?

Just a side note: The crown thing – I am not remotely interested in any such things. I honestly do not think Jesus is ether. But if it would make you feel better (especially about Mormons) you can have all mine and do with them what-ever you want. My thinking is more along the line of Jesus quietly whispering in my ear so no one else can hear, “Well done.” I consider that a worthwhile benefit. But I do not think we will say any such thing if I do not make an effort with all my heart, might mind and strength to keep the commandments and especially if I go around telling everybody else don’t worry about keeping the commandments because it is of no eternal consequence anyway.

The Traveler

[lattelady]

Traveler,

What I read in your posts, and forgive what I'm about to say as it may seem harsh (understand that your last couple posts have been harsh and judgemental, and I will accept that)--what I read is a pride in what you can do for God. You will work and work and work for the purpose of pleasing God, and with the goal of hearing Him say, "Well done!" I submit to you that pride has no place in the Christian walk. I believe myself to be helpless apart from Christ. You seem to be saying that salvation is by faith alone after all we can do. I say, apart from Him I can do nothing. You seem to be angered by the fact that I will not boast in what I can do; that I will rest in the fact that Christ will work in me "to will and to work according to His good pleasure," and my part is to surrender my old nature and will to Him. Your comments on "crowns" gives me good indication of how you feel about my giving praise and glory to Him for what He does in and through me, rather that what I do and do and do to try and make Him proud, when is ALREADY proud of me, because He sees me as He sees His Son--perfect (positionally, not actually).

[Justice]

If the keeping of commandments does nothing to promote salvation, then why would sin compromise it?

Among all the great questions you asked, this is the one that perplexes me the most.

The ONLY way around this question is to say as long as you don't do evil, or break the commandments, you can do nothing and be saved.

How can anyone say this after they read Matthew 25?

In all three of those stories or parables the people who did nothing, or did not demonstrate good works, were cast out.

It's very clear.

So, with no way around this question, it's very perplexing how one can be true yet not the other. Maybe I'm in need of an explanation of Matthew 25... because it seems obviously clear to me.

[Justice]

Traveler,

What I read in your posts, and forgive what I'm about to say as it may seem harsh (understand that your last couple posts have been harsh and judgemental, and I will accept that)--what I read is a pride in what you can do for God. You will work and work and work for the purpose of pleasing God, and with the goal of hearing Him say, "Well done!" I submit to you that pride has no place in the Christian walk. I believe myself to be helpless apart from Christ. You seem to be saying that salvation is by faith alone after all we can do. I say, apart from Him I can do nothing. You seem to be angered by the fact that I will not boast in what I can do; that I will rest in the fact that Christ will work in me "to will and to work according to His good pleasure," and my part is to surrender my old nature and will to Him. Your comments on "crowns" gives me good indication of how you feel about my giving praise and glory to Him for what He does in and through me, rather that what I do and do and do to try and make Him proud, when is ALREADY proud of me, because He sees me as He sees His Son--perfect (positionally, not actually).

Nothing in what he said sounds prideful to me. It sounds more like you are judging him because you don't understand, even disagree with, his point of view.

I believe that knowing Christ means I must strive to be like Him. If I do not, yet claim to know Him as my Savior, then I am a hypocrite. It's not a pride thing. Trust me, I know how pitiful and pathetic I am on my own. But, I do believe that God said He will reward those who honsetly seek Him. I believe seeking Him is seeking to be like Him. He is holy, and without an attempt to be holy we cannot know Him.

Imitation is the sincerest form of worship. If I do not seek to be like Him and do the things He did then I do not worship Him sincerely. I do not expect to be saved if I do not at least try my best to keep His commandments. If I did nothing about what He has done for me then I wouldn't even want to be in His presence so He could behold my hypocritical claim that I love Him and my shallow empty life where I didn't even value His word enough to feel I had to keep His commandments.

How can I look Him in the eyes and say, "I believe you're God and my Savior, but I don't have to keep your commandments."

No, it's "I must keep your commandments! It's my fault if I don't, not yours. Thank you for repentance which makes it possible for me to keep trying when I fall short of your expectations. Thank you for your grace, mercy, patience, and understanding as I attempt to be like you, my Savior!"

Edited October 27, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

I say, apart from Him I can do nothing.

We're not disagreeing!

But, when you become a follower of Christ... all things become possible if you exercise enough faith! We are weak, but He is strong!

I must visit the sick, hungry, homeless, and fatherless. Why? Because He commanded me to! Why? Because of Him I love all men and women and want better for them than I want for myself!

That's not prideful. It's love, and even greater... charity.

It's because it's what He did, and I want to be like Him so I must do what He did.

I want to fill my life with good acts of kindness and mercy so I can be as much like Him as possible. If I do not, I am worthless dross... only fit to be cast out and tred under the feet of men. How ungrateful would I be if I did nothing for Him when He did everything for me.

If I did nothing about my love and faith in Christ I wouldn't even want to show up to meet Him when the time comes. It would be mercy for Him to kick me out of His presence.

[Traveler]

Traveler,

What I read in your posts, and forgive what I'm about to say as it may seem harsh (understand that your last couple posts have been harsh and judgemental, and I will accept that)--what I read is a pride in what you can do for God. You will work and work and work for the purpose of pleasing God, and with the goal of hearing Him say, "Well done!" I submit to you that pride has no place in the Christian walk. I believe myself to be helpless apart from Christ. You seem to be saying that salvation is by faith alone after all we can do. I say, apart from Him I can do nothing. You seem to be angered by the fact that I will not boast in what I can do; that I will rest in the fact that Christ will work in me "to will and to work according to His good pleasure," and my part is to surrender my old nature and will to Him. Your comments on "crowns" gives me good indication of how you feel about my giving praise and glory to Him for what He does in and through me, rather that what I do and do and do to try and make Him proud, when is ALREADY proud of me, because He sees me as He sees His Son--perfect (positionally, not actually).

I can see you point with pride. Perhaps it is pride that sustains me and gives me faith that "yes I can" and Yes you can too. I thought it was faith and love but I see your point of view.

BTW You did not respond with which commandment is impossible to live. The hardest for me is the love your enemies thing. I believe practice brings perfection and my pride or faith encourages me to try again and again even after a complete failure. (Isaiah 28:10,13)

One other question. According to your religion, why does G-d give us commandments? So he can blaim us, or just the wicked?

A last thought - I believe that there are five principles that govern the relationship of G-d to man.

1. G-d will not do anything for any man that man can do for themselves.

2. G-d will do for any man those things that man cannot do for themselfs.

3. G-d will not do anything for man that will bring about eternal detrement for man.

4. G-d will do anything for man that will bring about eternal benefit for man.

5. G-d will not do anything for man without their concurance.

The Traveler

[Maureen]

I do not expect to be saved if I do not at least try my best to keep His commandments.

The hardest for me is the love your enemies thing. I believe practice brings perfection and my pride or faith encourages me to try again and again even after a complete failure.

What's with the change? The main point with many LDS on this thread has been with the idea that keeping the commandments is required, is necessary to receive salvation. Now it's okay if you just try, or even try and fail? How does that work? What's good enough? Must you "keep the commandments" or is it acceptable if you make the effort to keep the commandments?

[Misshalfway]

What's with the change? The main point with many LDS on this thread has been with the idea that keeping the commandments is required, is necessary to receive salvation. Now it's okay if you just try, or even try and fail? How does that work? What's good enough? Must you "keep the commandments" or is it acceptable if you make the effort to keep the commandments?

We are to keep the commandments and then repent when we don't. Both sides are necessary to true devotion. Repentance for sin is as much obedience as doing it right the first time.....which as you have pointed out is impossible to acheive such perfection. So repentance has to be woven into our everyday lives. Its as fundamental to the process as faith is. In fact it is the first fruits of faith. Again, we don't perform obedience because we of ourselves create any salvation independent of Christ. Obedience puts us in a posture that opens the door for the miracle to happen.

Even believing is obedience. Why is this so hard to understand?

[lattelady]

Traveler,

Your question, are these commandments impossible to live--1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart, sould, mind and strength or 2) Love your neighbor as yourself:

I believe these commandments are important to follow. God commanded us to. I believe they're possible to follow. God commanded us to. The only PROBLEM is that none of us can keep either of these commandments PERFECTLY, and that is what God requires of us: PERFECTION, in order to stand in His presence. Only ONE kept the commandments perfectly, and that was Jesus. That is why HIS life was sacrificed for the sins of the world. He was the only sinless sacrifice. He was my substitution. I can't keep the Law perfectly. That is exactly why the Law existed--to show mankind that they were incapable of keeping the Law perfectly. Galatians 3:24,25 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." So when we trust in Christ and He gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit, we learn to die to SELF and walk by the Spirit. Galatians 5:18 "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law." Loving the Lord with everything we've got and loving each other can only be done by the Spirit of God's power THROUGH us--we can't do it in our own strength by TRYING HARD to live right.

One question for you, Traveler: Why such a negative reaction toward the concept of our good works reaping rewards ("crowns") that we will in turn give back to Jesus in praise and worship of Him?

[Maureen]

Even believing is obedience. Why is this so hard to understand?

I never said it was difficult to understand. I agree that believing is obedience; I just wanted clarification on the requirement for "keeping the commandments".

[Snow]

If you had faith in Christ, you wouldn't be an atheist.

M.

But that wasn't the point. The point was that an atheist becomes a believer but leaves it at that - simply believing but not obeying - beyond exercising belief.

[Snow]

Not likely.

Because belief isn't sufficient. Action beyond belief is required.

[prisonchaplain]

Because belief isn't sufficient. Action beyond belief is required.

Action is a necessary PRODUCT of belief. Yes, absolutely. But, remember, that God sees the true belief before we see the actions. And, sometimes that product is frustratingly slow in coming...doesn't mean the faith isn't true, though weak.