Guest idunnowattosay Posted October 5, 2005 Report Posted October 5, 2005 Hi guys, I hoped you guys could help me with some research, as I am so busy, and sometimes not terribly resourceful. I have a baptist friend who has been taking the missionary discussions, and she likes a lot of our beliefs, but says all her questions don't always get answered. The one she asked me about was that the sister missionaries told her that only members of the church go to spirit paradise and all others go to spirit prison. I told her that this is not what I had ever believed, but that I would do a little searching so I could let her know what the church specifically teaches on this point. She still likes the theories better than the whole baptist heaven/hell thing, but I can see how this makes the church look pretty snobby. I know the gospel is never going to please everyone on every point, but I think we could at least help her get a clearer picture on this point. Thanks ahead of time. Quote
DisRuptive1 Posted October 5, 2005 Report Posted October 5, 2005 I think as we saw with Jesus, bridging the two spirit worlds, that spirit hell was where those who REALLY needed to learn the gospel went. Quote
Ray Posted October 5, 2005 Report Posted October 5, 2005 When teaching someone the gospel, I think it's better to teach someone how they can obtain knowledge for themselves, instead of always trying to do their research for them, because, like you, most of us are busy doing other things. Anyway, I would introduce your friend to the Search feature on our main website, where she can find information directly from the scriptures and our other prophets and apostles. I would also introduce her to the Topical Guide and Bible Dictionary, and all the other information available on the Scriptures website. And btw, it's not that I am unwilling to find a lot of quotes and information from those sources myself. I'm just trying to help you understand that you don't have to find all of the answers to your friend's questions, in case she comes back with some more questions after you answer this one. :) Quote
Snow Posted October 6, 2005 Report Posted October 6, 2005 Originally posted by Ray@Oct 5 2005, 03:13 PMWhen teaching someone the gospel, I think it's better to teach someone how they can obtain knowledge for themselves, instead of always trying to do their research for them, because, like you, most of us are busy doing other things.An excellent suggestion. Think of all the lost souls our missionaries could reach if they didn't have to get bogged down actually sharing the gospel and instead could simply hand out topical reference guides.... no, wait, imagine all the time and expense we could save if we just handed out a card that said: Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price... www.deseretbook.com.I think we are on to something... something big.ps McConkie's Mormon Doctrines simply says that is the place where the righteous await the ressurection. Quote
Maureen Posted October 6, 2005 Report Posted October 6, 2005 Wikipedia says:Spirit Prison is believed by Latter-Day Saints to be a place where people who have not accepted their gospel on earth to be able to receive it in heaven, preceding the second coming.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_Prisonalso:A spirit world where the spirits of the dead reside until the resurrection. There, those who died without the opportunity to accept the restored Gospel in life will be taught by those who did accept the gospel in life (this is the reason why some Mormon sects, such as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, believe in vicarious baptism for the dead). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism#Pre...d_the_afterlifeM. Quote
Ray Posted October 6, 2005 Report Posted October 6, 2005 Originally posted by Snow+Oct 5 2005, 05:55 PM--><!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 5 2005, 03:13 PMWhen teaching someone the gospel, I think it's better to teach someone how they can obtain knowledge for themselves, instead of always trying to do their research for them, because, like you, most of us are busy doing other things.An excellent suggestion. Think of all the lost souls our missionaries could reach if they didn't have to get bogged down actually sharing the gospel and instead could simply hand out topical reference guides.... no, wait, imagine all the time and expense we could save if we just handed out a card that said: Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price... www.deseretbook.com.I think we are on to something... something big.ps McConkie's Mormon Doctrines simply says that is the place where the righteous await the ressurection.←Snow,I believe it is better for missionaries to give basic information about our beliefs, instead of spending so much time trying to discuss every little detail about everything. And sometimes, simply handing out a pass-along card is the best thing to do, when it can be seen that someone is sincerely interested in knowing about our beliefs and is willing to learn for themselves, because all of us should learn to learn for ourselves and the sooner we start, the better.For instance, the sister this brother is talking about is already having discussions with some missionaries, and those missionaries have already given her some basic information about her questions. From there, it went to the point where she wanted to know more than the missionaries told her, so the missionaries can either:continue to set up appointments with her, until she learns everything she wants to know,orrecommend she talk with other missionaries, until they can answer all of her questions, orrecommend that she come to a website like this, where she can hear all kinds of things (some good, some bad; some true, some not),orrecommend that she learn from the source of our knowledge, meaning our Lord and His prophets.And btw, I've seen quite a few missionaries, including full-time missionaries, who don’t teach much about how people should learn for themselves, and instead seem perfectly willing to allow others to continue to come to them for answers, just as this brother seems to be doing here, so I am trying to promote the idea that we should teach everybody how to learn for themselves instead of trying to do everybody else's homework for them.And if you don’t agree with me, Snow, that's fine. I’ve now said all that I need to say to you about this. Quote
Guest idunnowattosay Posted October 6, 2005 Report Posted October 6, 2005 Actually, I am a sister, not a brother. Also, I agree with teaching people how to do their own research, but I really don't think it's that big of a deal if I help her out with this one. I also don't think I need to divulge more details of the situation in order to defend myself for wanting to help my friend find a more specific answer to one gospel topic. I have found some helpful things from church resources since my first post, but thought it might be enlightening to see what others came up with. So far, Maureen is the only one who has been helpful at all (thanks). Also, my pal has done some of her own research, but hoped that she could get some help with this one. Do you really think I should go back and say "Here's whay I found, but if you have anymore questions the missionaries couldn't answer for you then do your own research." I hope my first impression of this place is wrong. Can't anyone take a question at face value anymore and just be helpful? or does everyone have to look beyond the question and post some clever solution to show how much smarter they are than the one who asked the original question? Some of you made a lot of assumptions about me and my friend right off without even trying to help. So, let me reiterate, my question was not 'should I help my friend' but 'could you guys help me find some info'. How I decide my friend is between her and me and the one we pray to. Any serious help would still be appreciated. Thanks :) Quote
Guest Member_Deleted Posted October 6, 2005 Report Posted October 6, 2005 Originally posted by idunnowattosay@Oct 6 2005, 01:42 PMActually, I am a sister, not a brother.Also, I agree with teaching people how to do their own research, but I really don't think it's that big of a deal if I help her out with this one. I also don't think I need to divulge more details of the situation in order to defend myself for wanting to help my friend find a more specific answer to one gospel topic. I have found some helpful things from church resources since my first post, but thought it might be enlightening to see what others came up with.So far, Maureen is the only one who has been helpful at all (thanks).Also, my pal has done some of her own research, but hoped that she could get some help with this one. Do you really think I should go back and say "Here's whay I found, but if you have anymore questions the missionaries couldn't answer for you then do your own research."I hope my first impression of this place is wrong. Can't anyone take a question at face value anymore and just be helpful? or does everyone have to look beyond the question and post some clever solution to show how much smarter they are than the one who asked the original question? Some of you made a lot of assumptions about me and my friend right off without even trying to help.So, let me reiterate, my question was not 'should I help my friend' but 'could you guys help me find some info'. How I decide my friend is between her and me and the one we pray to.Any serious help would still be appreciated. Thanks :)←Snow says not so nice things... but he isn/t the whole forum... Quote
Maureen Posted October 6, 2005 Report Posted October 6, 2005 Originally posted by idunnowattosay@Oct 6 2005, 12:42 PMSo far, Maureen is the only one who has been helpful at all (thanks).You are welcome idunnowattosay. I love Wikipedia - they almost know everything.I hope my first impression of this place is wrong. Can't anyone take a question at face value anymore and just be helpful? or does everyone have to look beyond the question and post some clever solution to show how much smarter they are than the one who asked the original question? Some of you made a lot of assumptions about me and my friend right off without even trying to help.Yes, our dear Ray can come off that way sometimes, but he means well.M.PS - Please, I'm pretty sure idunnowattosay wasn't referring to Snow. :) Quote
Ray Posted October 6, 2005 Report Posted October 6, 2005 Originally posted by idunnowattosay@Oct 6 2005, 12:42 PMActually, I am a sister, not a brother.Also, I agree with teaching people how to do their own research, but I really don't think it's that big of a deal if I help her out with this one. I also don't think I need to divulge more details of the situation in order to defend myself for wanting to help my friend find a more specific answer to one gospel topic. I have found some helpful things from church resources since my first post, but thought it might be enlightening to see what others came up with.So far, Maureen is the only one who has been helpful at all (thanks).Also, my pal has done some of her own research, but hoped that she could get some help with this one. Do you really think I should go back and say "Here's whay I found, but if you have anymore questions the missionaries couldn't answer for you then do your own research."I hope my first impression of this place is wrong. Can't anyone take a question at face value anymore and just be helpful? or does everyone have to look beyond the question and post some clever solution to show how much smarter they are than the one who asked the original question? Some of you made a lot of assumptions about me and my friend right off without even trying to help.So, let me reiterate, my question was not 'should I help my friend' but 'could you guys help me find some info'. How I decide my friend is between her and me and the one we pray to.Any serious help would still be appreciated. Thanks :)←First of all, I apologize for assuming you were male. I try to avoid making assumptions, and I thought I had read something to indicate that you were male, but apparently I was mistaken.And btw, while the "help" I gave you apparently wasn't the kind of help you were looking for, I still think I gave you the best help I could have given someone who had only said what you said, because I think the best way to learn about our Church and our beliefs is to know how to access information from our Lord and His prophets. Anyway, now that I know that you and your friend already know how to access information from our Lord and His prophets on our official Church websites, I’ll leave you to Find and Search to your heart’s content, because all of the information anyone needs to know about before joining the Church can be found on those websites, and I wouldn’t suggest that anyone try to learn any more than all of that before joining the Church because to go any deeper without the gift of the Holy Ghost would not be in your friend’s best interest.And btw, just in case all you really want is for someone to give you a specific reference, I’ll give you this reference that I found using the key words “spirit world”.The Spirit World35554, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 38: The Spirit World, 279While speaking at the funeral of Elder Thomas Williams, President Brigham Young spoke of the spirit world as follows: “How frequently the question arises in the minds of the people—’I wish I knew where I was going!’ Can you find out? Well, you will go into the spirit world, where Brother Thomas now is. He has now entered upon a higher state of being, that is, his spirit has, than when in this body. ‘Why cannot I see him? Why cannot I converse with his spirit? I wish I could see my husband or my father and converse with him!’ It is not reasonable that you should, it is not right that you should; perhaps you would miss the very object of your pursuit if you had this privilege, and there would not be the same trial of faith to exercise you, not so severe a path of affliction for you to walk in, not so great a battle to fight, nor so great a victory to win, and you would miss the very object you are in pursuit of. It is right just as it is, that this veil should be closed down; that we do not see God, that we do not see angels, that we do not converse with them except through strict obedience to his requirements, and faith in Jesus Christ (DNSW, 28 July 1874, 1).Teachings of Brigham YoungThe spirits of the dead go to the spirit world.When you lay down this tabernacle, where are you going? Into the spiritual world (DBY, 376).The wicked spirits that leave here and go into the spirit world, are they wicked there? Yes (DNW, 27 Aug. 1856, 3).When the spirits leave their bodies, … they are prepared then to see, hear and understand spiritual things. … Can you see spirits in this room? No. Suppose the Lord should touch your eyes that you might see, could you then see the spirits? Yes, as plainly as you now see bodies, as did the servant of [Elisha] [see 2 Kings 6:16–17]. If the Lord would permit it, and it was his will that it should be done, you could see the spirits that have departed from this world, as plainly as you now see bodies with your natural eyes (DBY, 376–77).Jesus opened the door of salvation to those in the spirit world.Jesus was the first man that ever went to preach to the spirits in prison, holding the keys of the Gospel of salvation to them. Those keys were delivered to him in the day and hour that he went into the spirit world, and with them he opened the door of salvation to the spirits in prison (DBY, 378).We want to sacrifice enough to do the will of God in preparing to bring up those who have not had the privilege of hearing the Gospel while in the flesh, for the simple reason that, in the spirit world, they cannot officiate in the ordinances of the house of God. They have passed the ordeals, and are beyond the possibility of personally officiating for the remission of their sins and for their exaltation, consequently they are under the necessity of trusting in their friends, their children and their children’s children to officiate for them, that they may be brought up into the celestial kingdom of God (DBY, 406).Compare those inhabitants on the earth who have heard the Gospel in our day, with the millions who have never heard it, or had the keys of salvation presented to them, and you will conclude at once as I do, that there is an almighty work to perform in the spirit world (DBY, 377).Reflect upon the millions and millions and millions of people that have lived and died without hearing the Gospel on the earth, without the keys of the Kingdom. They were not prepared for celestial glory, and there was no power that could prepare them without the keys of this Priesthood (DBY, 378).Father Smith [Joseph Smith Sr.] and Carlos [smith] and Brother [Edward] Partridge, yes, and every other good Saint, are just as busy in the spirit world as you and I are here. They can see us, but we cannot see them unless our eyes are opened. What are they doing there? They are preaching, preaching all the time, and preparing the way for us to hasten our work in building temples here and elsewhere (DBY, 378).Every faithful man’s labor will continue as long as the labor of Jesus, until all things are redeemed that can be redeemed, and presented to the Father. There is a great work before us (DBY, 378).The spirits that dwell in these tabernacles on this earth, when they leave them go directly into this world of spirits. What! A congregated mass of inhabitants there in spirit, mingling with each other, as they do here? Yes, brethren, they are there together, and if they associate together, and collect together, in clans and in societies as they do here, it is their privilege. No doubt they yet, more or less, see, hear, converse and have to do with each other, both good and bad. If the Elders of Israel in these latter times go and preach to the spirits in prison, they associate with them, precisely as our Elders associate with the wicked in the flesh, when they go to preach to them (DBY, 378).The spirit world is an active place where growth and progression are possible.When you are in the spirit world, everything there will appear as natural as things now do. Spirits will be familiar with spirits in the spirit world—will converse, behold, and exercise every variety of communication with one another as familiarly and naturally as while here in tabernacles. There, as here, all things will be natural, and you will understand them as you now understand natural things. You will there see that those spirits we are speaking of are active; they sleep not. And you will learn that they are striving with all their might—laboring and toiling diligently as any individual would to accomplish an act in this world (DBY, 380).Spirits are just as familiar with spirits as bodies are with bodies, though spirits are composed of matter so refined as not to be tangible to this coarser organization. They walk, converse, and have their meetings; and the spirits of good men like Joseph and the Elders, who have left this Church on earth for a season to operate in another sphere, are rallying all their powers and going from place to place preaching the Gospel, and Joseph is directing them, saying, go ahead, my brethren, and if they hedge up your way, walk up and command them to disperse. You have the Priesthood and can disperse them, but if any of them wish to hear the Gospel, preach to them (DBY, 379).I can say with regard to parting with our friends, and going ourselves, that I have been near enough to understand eternity so that I have had to exercise a great deal more faith to desire to live than I ever exercised in my whole life to live. The brightness and glory of the next apartment is inexpressible. It is not encumbered so that when we advance in years we have to be stubbing along and be careful lest we fall down. We see our youth, even, frequently stubbing their toes and falling down. But yonder, how different! They move with ease and like lightning. If we want to visit Jerusalem, or this, that, or the other place—and I presume we will be permitted if we desire—there we are, looking at its streets. If we want to behold Jerusalem as it was in the days of the Savior; or if we want to see the Garden of Eden as it was when created, there we are, and we see it as it existed spiritually, for it was created first spiritually and then temporally, and spiritually it still remains. And when there we may behold the earth as at the dawn of creation, or we may visit any city we please that exists upon its surface. If we wish to understand how they are living here on these western islands, or in China, we are there; in fact, we are like the light of the morning. … God has revealed some little things, with regard to his movements and power, and the operation and motion of the lightning furnish a fine illustration of the ability of the Almighty (DBY, 380).When we pass into the spirit world we shall possess a measure of his power. Here, we are continually troubled with ills and ailments of various kinds. In the spirit world we are free from all this and enjoy life, glory, and intelligence; and we have the Father to speak to us, Jesus to speak to us, and angels to speak to us, and we shall enjoy the society of the just and the pure who are in the spirit world until the resurrection (DBY, 380–81).Suppose, then, that a man is evil in his heart—wholly given up to wickedness, and in that condition dies, his spirit will enter into the spirit world intent upon evil. On the other hand, if we are striving with all the powers and faculties God has given us to improve upon our talents, to prepare ourselves to dwell in eternal life, and the grave receives our bodies while we are thus engaged, with what disposition will our spirits enter their next state? They will be still striving to do the things of God, only in a much greater degree—learning, increasing, growing in grace and in the knowledge of the truth (DBY, 379).If we are faithful to our religion, when we go into the spirit world, the fallen spirits—Lucifer and the third part of the heavenly hosts that came with him, and the spirits of wicked men who have dwelt upon this earth, the whole of them combined will have no influence over our spirits. Is not that an advantage? Yes. All the rest of the children of men are more or less subject to them, and they are subject to them as they were while here in the flesh (DBY, 379).Here [the faithful] shall be perplexed and hunted by him; but when we go into the spirit world there we are masters over the power of satan, and he cannot afflict us any more, and this is enough for me to know (DNW, 1 Oct. 1856, 3).If a person is baptized for the remission of sins, and dies a short time thereafter, he is not prepared at once to enjoy a fulness of the glory promised to the faithful in the Gospel; for he must be schooled while in the spirit, in the other departments of the house of God, passing on from truth to truth, from intelligence to intelligence, until he is prepared to again receive his body and to enter into the presence of the Father and the Son. We cannot enter into celestial glory in our present state of ignorance and mental darkness (DBY, 378–79).We have more friends behind the veil than on this side, and they will hail us more joyfully than you were ever welcomed by your parents and friends in this world; and you will rejoice more when you meet them than you ever rejoiced to see a friend in this life; and then we shall go on from step to step, from rejoicing to rejoicing, and from one intelligence and power to another, our happiness becoming more and more exquisite and sensible as we proceed in the words and powers of life (DBY, 379–80).When we get through this state of being, to the next room, I may call it, we are not going to stop there. We shall still go on, doing all the good we can, administering and officiating for all whom we are permitted to administer and officiate for, and then go on to the next, and to the next, until the Lord shall crown all who have been faithful on this earth, and the work pertaining to the earth is finished, and the Savior, whom we have been helping, has completed his task, and the earth, with all things pertaining to it, is presented to the Father. Then these faithful ones will receive their blessings and crowns, and their inheritances will be set off to them and be given to them, and they will then go on, worlds upon worlds, increasing for ever and ever (DBY, 376).Suggestions for Study• When the body dies, where does the spirit go? (See also Alma 40:11–14.) • What does it mean that Jesus “opened the door of salvation to the spirits in prison”? (See also D&C 138; 1 Peter 3:18–19.)• After Christ opened the doors of salvation in the spirit world, how has the gospel been preached there? (See also D&C 138:30.)• If none of the ordinances that pertain to the flesh are administered in the spirit world, why is the gospel being preached to the spirits there? (See also D&C 138:58–59.) I deleted the questions following this reference, because the questions were already contained in President Young's comments. Quote
Serg Posted October 6, 2005 Report Posted October 6, 2005 Hi. For all its worth, the Gospel teaches that NO one that has not been born both of water and Spirit can go there. And hence there is ONE valid baptism, Jesus's one. I mean, this Church's. So any person that dies without it needs it to progress, and have peace here. If not, and all people could go to paridise without the baptisms, there would be no justice at all. Though the Lord has said that He gives rewards to those who never baptized or knew the gospel but if they would have been exposed to it would have embraced it, still need the ordinances. But remember, that the Lord is a Lord of Justice but too of mercy, and these teachings are far more mercyful that those of a heaven and hell in which no one gets a second chance. This may also bring other doubts, as to Alma's statement that THIS life is the ONLY time for us to prepare for heaven, and yes it is, BUT just for those who ever encountered and knew the gospel and had the chance to embrace it. Those that did not, will have a chance. And those who had the chance, will be judged by the Lord and may have (up to the circumstances) a chance again, but NOT to exaltation but to inhrit a kingdom of less glory. May God bless you and please , always try to know all things from the very God. Quote
Traveler Posted October 7, 2005 Report Posted October 7, 2005 Originally posted by idunnowattosay@Oct 5 2005, 02:00 PMHi guys,I hoped you guys could help me with some research, as I am so busy, and sometimes not terribly resourceful. I have a baptist friend who has been taking the missionary discussions, and she likes a lot of our beliefs, but says all her questions don't always get answered. The one she asked me about was that the sister missionaries told her that only members of the church go to spirit paradise and all others go to spirit prison. I told her that this is not what I had ever believed, but that I would do a little searching so I could let her know what the church specifically teaches on this point. She still likes the theories better than the whole baptist heaven/hell thing, but I can see how this makes the church look pretty snobby. I know the gospel is never going to please everyone on every point, but I think we could at least help her get a clearer picture on this point. Thanks ahead of time.←I would submit that all that would be heirs of the celestial kingdom will abide in the spirit paradise. D&C 137:7 "...All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been premitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of G-d:"The Traveler Quote
Guest Member_Deleted Posted October 7, 2005 Report Posted October 7, 2005 Originally posted by Maureen+Oct 6 2005, 02:22 PM--><!--QuoteBegin-idunnowattosay@Oct 6 2005, 12:42 PMSo far, Maureen is the only one who has been helpful at all (thanks).You are welcome idunnowattosay. I love Wikipedia - they almost know everything.I hope my first impression of this place is wrong. Can't anyone take a question at face value anymore and just be helpful? or does everyone have to look beyond the question and post some clever solution to show how much smarter they are than the one who asked the original question? Some of you made a lot of assumptions about me and my friend right off without even trying to help.Yes, our dear Ray can come off that way sometimes, but he means well.M.PS - Please, I'm pretty sure idunnowattosay wasn't referring to Snow. :)←ARE YOU KIDDING>>>> Of course he was referring to Snow! Quote
Ray Posted October 7, 2005 Report Posted October 7, 2005 Actually, Please, he is a she and I’m pretty sure she was talking about me because she said didn’t appreciate me suggesting that she show her friend how to find information from prophets and apostles. Apparently, although this is an assumption, she only wanted us to help her by giving her our thoughts, or a few thoughts we had gleaned from our Lord and his prophets, without suggesting that she and her friend could find that information for themselves. Quote
Guest Member_Deleted Posted October 7, 2005 Report Posted October 7, 2005 Originally posted by Ray@Oct 7 2005, 11:55 AMActually, Please, he is a she and I’m pretty sure she was talking about me because she said didn’t appreciate me suggesting that she show her friend how to find information from prophets and apostles. Apparently, although this is an assumption, she only wanted us to help her by giving her our thoughts, or a few thoughts we had gleaned from our Lord and his prophets, without suggesting that she and her friend could find that information for themselves.←Well... Snow pretty much said the same thing... and very rudely.. anyway... I believe what we work for we appreciate more.. Quote
Maureen Posted October 7, 2005 Report Posted October 7, 2005 Originally posted by Please@Oct 7 2005, 11:13 AMWell... Snow pretty much said the same thing... and very rudely.. anyway... I believe what we work for we appreciate more..I think Snow's remark towards Ray's suggestion was given with a loving dash of sarcasm. That's different than "the same thing". M. Quote
Ray Posted October 7, 2005 Report Posted October 7, 2005 Originally posted by Please+Oct 7 2005, 11:13 AM--><!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 7 2005, 11:55 AMActually, Please, he is a she and I’m pretty sure she was talking about me because she said didn’t appreciate me suggesting that she show her friend how to find information from prophets and apostles. Apparently, although this is an assumption, she only wanted us to help her by giving her our thoughts, or a few thoughts we had gleaned from our Lord and his prophets, without suggesting that she and her friend could find that information for themselves.←Well... Snow pretty much said the same thing... and very rudely.. anyway... I believe what we work for we appreciate more..←Me too, which is why I think the best way to learn is to learn for ourselves, although it does help to be shown how to learn that way. :) Quote
Ray Posted October 7, 2005 Report Posted October 7, 2005 Originally posted by Maureen+Oct 7 2005, 11:44 AM--><!--QuoteBegin-Please@Oct 7 2005, 11:13 AMWell... Snow pretty much said the same thing... and very rudely.. anyway... I believe what we work for we appreciate more..I think Snow's remark towards Ray's suggestion was given with a loving dash of sarcasm. That's different than "the same thing". M.←I don't see anything loving or uplifting about sarcasm. Quote
Guest Member_Deleted Posted October 7, 2005 Report Posted October 7, 2005 Originally posted by Maureen+Oct 7 2005, 12:44 PM--><!--QuoteBegin-Please@Oct 7 2005, 11:13 AMWell... Snow pretty much said the same thing... and very rudely.. anyway... I believe what we work for we appreciate more..I think Snow's remark towards Ray's suggestion was given with a loving dash of sarcasm. That's different than "the same thing". M.←I disagree. Quote
Ray Posted October 7, 2005 Report Posted October 7, 2005 Well, since I don’t remember the last time I agreed with Maureen, I’ll take the opportunity to give my support to her here. No offense, Please. I think what Snow said is different from or not the same as what I said, because Snow wasn’t seriously suggesting that it was better or best to teach the gospel by showing other people how to learn from themselves, and I was serious when I said that. Or in other words, Snow seems to be in favor of simply answering other people’s questions, instead of showing people how to find answers for themselves as I suggested, and I say it seems that way because I believe Snow was being sarcastic as Maureen suggested, and sarcasm shows that someone doesn’t honestly agree with what they appear to be saying. Quote
Guest Member_Deleted Posted October 7, 2005 Report Posted October 7, 2005 Originally posted by Ray@Oct 7 2005, 02:47 PMWell, since I don’t remember the last time I agreed with Maureen, I’ll take the opportunity to give my support to her here. No offense, Please.I think what Snow said is different from or not the same as what I said, because Snow wasn’t seriously suggesting that it was better or best to teach the gospel by showing other people how to learn from themselves, and I was serious when I said that. Or in other words, Snow seems to be in favor of simply answering other people’s questions, instead of showing people how to find answers for themselves as I suggested, and I say it seems that way because I believe Snow was being sarcastic as Maureen suggested, and sarcasm shows that someone doesn’t honestly agree with what they appear to be saying.← Okay.... I think I agree. Quote
Guest jackvance88 Posted October 7, 2005 Report Posted October 7, 2005 GO TO HELL! For all its worth, the Gospel teaches that NO one that has not been born both of water and Spirit can go there. And hence there is ONE valid baptism, Jesus's one. I mean, this Church's. So any person that dies without it needs it to progress, and have peace here. If not, and all people could go to paridise without the baptisms, there would be no justice at all. Though the Lord has said that He gives rewards to those who never baptized or knew the gospel but if they would have been exposed to it would have embraced it, still need the ordinances. But remember, that the Lord is a Lord of Justice but too of mercy, and these teachings are far more mercyful that those of a heaven and hell in which no one gets a second chance. This may also bring other doubts, as to Alma's statement that THIS life is the ONLY time for us to prepare for heaven, and yes it is, BUT just for those who ever encountered and knew the gospel and had the chance to embrace it. Those that did not, will have a chance. And those who had the chance, will be judged by the Lord and may have (up to the circumstances) a chance again, but NOT to exaltation but to inhrit a kingdom of less glory. May God bless you and please , always try to know all things from the very God.← Quote
shanstress70 Posted October 8, 2005 Report Posted October 8, 2005 Originally posted by jackvance88@Oct 7 2005, 05:54 PMGO TO HELL!A bit harsh, eh? Quote
Snow Posted October 8, 2005 Report Posted October 8, 2005 Originally posted by Ray@Oct 7 2005, 12:47 PMWell, since I don’t remember the last time I agreed with Maureen, I’ll take the opportunity to give my support to her here. No offense, Please.I think what Snow said is different from or not the same as what I said, because Snow wasn’t seriously suggesting that it was better or best to teach the gospel by showing other people how to learn from themselves, and I was serious when I said that. Or in other words, Snow seems to be in favor of simply answering other people’s questions, instead of showing people how to find answers for themselves as I suggested, and I say it seems that way because I believe Snow was being sarcastic as Maureen suggested, and sarcasm shows that someone doesn’t honestly agree with what they appear to be saying.←Geeze, how much discussion can there be about this. Someone asked a question. For Pete's sake, answer it if you know. It's not like the person is continually asking someone else to do their homework or thinking for them. What difference does it make if that person gets his/her info from this board or from semewhere else? There are still making the effor to investigate.... and the reason I am sarcastic is because I am given such great opportunities. It would be foolish to let opportunity to pass you by. Carpe Diem, what... and all that jazz. Quote
pushka Posted October 8, 2005 Report Posted October 8, 2005 Originally posted by Ray@Oct 7 2005, 01:47 PMWell, since I don’t remember the last time I agreed with Maureen, I’ll take the opportunity to give my support to her here. No offense, Please.I think what Snow said is different from or not the same as what I said, because Snow wasn’t seriously suggesting that it was better or best to teach the gospel by showing other people how to learn from themselves, and I was serious when I said that. Or in other words, Snow seems to be in favor of simply answering other people’s questions, instead of showing people how to find answers for themselves as I suggested, and I say it seems that way because I believe Snow was being sarcastic as Maureen suggested, and sarcasm shows that someone doesn’t honestly agree with what they appear to be saying.←Ray, I must say here that Snow has often directed me towards searching for answers myself, without being sarcastic about it...he has also provided some of the answer to whatever it was I was asking about, in order to help me with my search...I think he was really just playing with you in that post, especially with regard to issuing Missionaries with boards and visual aids rather than have them take time to sit with investigators and explain things more thoroughly...hope you agree Snow! Quote
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