Who was Jesus?

[hordak]

The following thread is speculation only. The views expressed are solely those of the poster and do not represent the views the The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or it's affiliates.

So the different threads on Jesus have got me thinking more about him. Whether he was born of a virgin, conceived in the "traditional" sense by God or Mary was married to God we can clearly agree that he unique. Not just in the earthly visit atonement aspect but prior to that. If i understand correctly he has pretty much always been the Fathers "go to guy" when dealing with Earth as far as the creation and meeting with Prophets is concerned.

So what made him so special?

The thing that comes to mind when asking that question is the plan of salvation. Particularly exaltation and families together forever.

Was Jesus Gods only begotten son in the same way my boy is my only begotten son? Was he Gods physical son in a previous existence? It seems like it would explain his special place in the Godhead.

And if that is the case, will our sons/ or ourselves need to go on a similar mission for our/ our fathers spirit children? Will our spirit children have the same test that we had ?

I have heard the atonement covers all worlds (might be doctrine?) but does that include future worlds/spirit children and if so will Satan and his minions cover all these worlds or will we ourselves have rebellious spirit children as well?

As more people get exalted if Satan has to "cover" all these worlds wont his power become less and less?

Is there any doctrine on the subject?

[rameumptom]

We are to be saviors on Mt Zion. This means that we become assistants to Jesus in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39). We do this by preaching the gospel, being an example, and providing saving ordinances to both living and dead.

We will not have to be Saviors as Jesus is. He has already fulfilled this role for all of God's children past, present and future. But we all have our own roles to play in saving and exalting mankind.

Just as there is only one or two major stars in a play with many minor support characters, so it is in real life. We play the supportive roles to Jesus' main role as Savior and Redeemer.

[Misshalfway]

I am asking similar questions. For some reason, who God the Father is doesn't perplex me as much as who Jesus is. What makes Jesus so special? How did he become part of the Godhead in the pre-earth life? Does being born first make all the difference? Or is it because he was chosen and preserved from imperfection? What were his preparations ? Or was he not able to perform the Atonement until he was physically sired by God himself and had a body of flesh and blood and the natural man to contend with? Not that the plan wasn't set up to succeed.

[candyprpl]

Good questions people -- I'm too lazy to look for answers -- let me know when you find out:D

[Justice]

I don't know you will consider this a cop-out answer or not, or you think it even applies to the question.

I believe it was much like how the right Bishop is called, or the right Stake President, or the right Apostle. God knows everything and everyone. He called Jehova, even after He volunteered. He bestowed the keys and abilities on Jehova just as He does for any who are called.

I'm not saying Jehova wasn't speical or more righteous than the rest, I'm saying He was prepared from the beginning. He possessed the right character make-up and attributes that with the right teaching and foreordination, He would and could do all that was required of Him by the Father.

I really don't think it's a great mystery.

[Misshalfway]

I really don't think it's a great mystery.

I do.

[Misshalfway]

We all have the same potential, our end state is equal if our starting state is not. Last shall be first - glorious thing for those who are the ones who grow the most because they started as the least...

Hmm. I am going to have to think about that one. We have the same potential? And its irrelevant if we get there by being a member of the godhead or saved by a member of the Godhead?

(mulling it all over)

[Misshalfway]

Now let's all join hands and sing a round of :)

YouTube - If You Could Hie To Kolob

there is no end.

Kolob.....Which incidentally I have just learned is NOT the residence of God but the place from which our earth is governed. Pretty trippy, that Abraham 3. Pretty pretty trippy.

Back to the program....

The thing I am having trouble with is progression maybe. I am trying to understand who Jesus is, and the atonement, and then how progression works together with that. It seems Jesus is able to progress without it, yet the rest of us must progress inside of it with all of its mercy and grace and covenants and commandments. It just doesn't seem that I share the same potential as Jesus as I need help to progress. I get that obedience is how he progressed and all that and that I must obey to progress to. But if I read King Benjamin right, even my best efforts can't get me out of the debt.

Can you see the disconnect?

Edited November 2, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Vort]

The fact that we are told that we needed to be born into mortality, experience things here, and make covenants in order to return back to the Father's presence and inherit all that he hath, and yet that Jehovah (premortal Jesus), our spiritual "older brother" and co-created spirit child of God, was himself God and a member of the Godhead, strongly implies that there is key information that we have not been given.

If you consider unrevealed questions such as the nature of the Holy Ghost, it quickly becomes clear that we have been given only just enough knowledge to light our path a step ahead. If we seek, we will find and be given more; but until the Church as a whole receives that knowledge revealed through the President of the Church, it will remain safely hidden with those few who have asked and qualified themselves to receive the answer.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The thing I am having trouble with is progression maybe. I am trying to understand who Jesus is, and the atonement, and then how progression works together with that. It seems Jesus is able to progress without it, yet the rest of us must progress inside of it with all of its mercy and grace and covenants and commandments. It just doesn't seem that I share the same potential as Jesus as I need help to progress. I get that obedience is how he progressed and all that and that I must obey to progress to. But if I read King Benjamin right, even my best efforts can't get me out of the debt.

Can you see the disconnect?

What makes you say it seems Jesus could progress without the atonement or by himself? He needed Adam and Eve to fall for one. He needed death to be able to overcome it and become a savior. I don't think Jesus overcame death by himself, maybe I am way out in left field, but I thought he did it through his righteous application of the power of the Priesthood, which is the power to act in God's name. The whole, I do these things not for myself but for my Father, speech.

[Misshalfway]

No. I am trying to answer the question "what made jesus so special". I am being told that he progressed in the pre earth life enough to become chosen as a member of the Godhead and as the Savior. How did he do that? I get that he needed a body, but the Holy Ghost can be a member without a body....and apparently so could Jesus for a time.

I am trying to understand it. I think vort is right and the puzzle piece I am missing hasn't been revealed.

[hordak]

Found something.

he Prophet Joseph Smith taught: "When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

Gospel Principles

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

So is it saying God dwelt on an Earth like Jesus in a God had to "play" the redeemer role?

Or God dwelt as a man on the same earth Jesus did, pre this earth?

[Moksha]

Kolob.....Which incidentally I have just learned is NOT the residence of God but the place from which our earth is governed. Pretty trippy, that Abraham 3. Pretty pretty trippy.

Also the hub of the Intergalactic Communications and Stargate System. Much too busy to be the family homestead.

[Seminarysnoozer]

No. I am trying to answer the question "what made jesus so special". I am being told that he progressed in the pre earth life enough to become chosen as a member of the Godhead and as the Savior. How did he do that? I get that he needed a body, but the Holy Ghost can be a member without a body....and apparently so could Jesus for a time.

I am trying to understand it. I think vort is right and the puzzle piece I am missing hasn't been revealed.

Well, I know ... me too. That goes with a couple of my threads started about where the variable comes from that makes us different from the beginning. It must be like cutting a diamond from the rough off the glob of "intelligence." All you get is one perfect diamond and all the rest have flaws or lack of clarity or broke off in such a way the cut isn't very good.

[Seminarysnoozer]

consider this:

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

(New Testament | John 5:19)

Before being born on Earth Jesus watched the Father - watched Him as He took upon Himself mortality, as He experienced what transgression was, as He experienced death...

You can learn about this in the temple... it is what the temple is all about IMO .

I don't think this is possible, I don't think one can revert from perfect immortality to mortal. Believing that it takes perfect immortality to "have children." Unless you are saying Jesus watched it on TIVO or something. :)

[Guest Knowthetruth]

Who was Jesus? Does it matter?

John 6.28-29 - 28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

John 6.35-36 - 35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe... 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life.

2 Corinthians 11 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. . . . 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.

What are we to believe about Jesus? He continues to test us and asks "Who do you say I am?" (Mathew 16.13). Throughout the bible you will tested with this question (Luke 8:25, Luke 17.18-19). The understanding to answer this question has to be revealed by God (Luke 19; 1 Cor. 12.3; Mathew 16.17).

............

The Word

John 1.1, 14 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,d]" who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Mathew 1.20, 23

John 20:27-2827Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Revelation 1:7-8 7Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev. 19.10, 13

.. ..

..Creator of all things

Isaiah 40.28 28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.

Isaiah 45.18; Eph. 1.23; Heb 3.1-4; 1 Cor. 8.6

John 1.3, 14 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

.. ..

..I AM

Exodus 3.14 14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

Isaiah 41.4-10

John 8.53, 56-58 53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?" ... 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." 57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

.. ..

..Rock and Savior

2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God besides the LORD ? And who is the Rock except our God?

Hosea 13:4 "But I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.

1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior Jesus Christ, from there, the Lord

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Deut. 32.15; Deut. 32.30-32; Psalm 17.31; Psalm 18.31; 1 Samuel 2.2; 2 Sam. 22.3, 47;

Mathew 1.20; Romans 9.33; 1 Peter 2.8; Titus 3.6; 1 Tim. 2.3; 1 Tim. 4.10; 1 John 4.14

....

..Lord

John 20:27-2827Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

1 Samuel 2.2; Leviticus 19.34; Heb. 8.8; Mathew 12.8; Romans 15.6; 1 Corinthians 8.6; Phill. 2.6-11

Worship

Mark 5.2-6 And when He had come out of the boat, immediately there met Him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no one could bind him, not even with chains, 4 because he had often been bound with shackles and chains. And the chains had been pulled apart by him, and the shackles broken in pieces; neither could anyone tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones. 6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him.

Matthew 2:2 “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”

Matthew 8:2 And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.”

Matthew 9:18 While He spoke these things to them, behold, a ruler came and worshiped Him, saying, “My daughter has just died, but come and lay Your hand on her and she will live.”

Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.”

Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.

Consider how often God and Jesus (the Christ, the Messiah, the King, the Savior) are discussed without a clear distinction between the two.

He who is not God should not come close to suggesting he is.

Some things are not open to various interpretations. 2 Peter 3:16 His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Who is Jesus? The understanding to answer this question has to be revealed by God (Luke 19; 1 Cor. 12.3; Mathew 16.17).

Some are so committed to their religion (no matter how it disagrees with the Bible and twists the scriptures) that they will not allow God Himself to show them the truth. They are trained to plant their heels and never back down, but what if God is the one they are fighting? They search the bible to support their religion, not to know the truth. They have decided how they will interpret the scriptures before they ever read them.

2 Corinthians 11 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. . . . 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.

Galatians 1 6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

11I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 13 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.

Mark 7:13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down..."

Mark 7:7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

Isaiah 29:13-14 The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men. Therefore once more I will astound these people with wonder upon wonder; the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

Matthew 11:15 He who has ears, let him hear.

[Misshalfway]

We were reading Mosiah with the kids this morning and we read Abinidi's speach (Ch 15) about Jesus being the Father and the Son. I was struck by a few lines.

vs. 1 "...God himself shall come down among the children of men to redeem his people..."

So....Jesus was God before he came to earth, in spirit form, and if I understand its because he was chosen out of the noble and great ones because he was so progressed and then like vs 8 given power from God the Father to perform the duties of the Son. Yes?

vs. 3 "..the father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becometh the Father and the Son -"

So....is this how he was qualified? It must have been. Yet he was God before this. Hmmm.

vs. 8 " and thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men --"

[rameumptom]

I think part of the answer is in Alma 13: the great and noble ones were those who exercised exceeding great faith in the premortal existence and were foreordained.

Could Jesus have failed his mission? Yes. But given how righteous he was, the odds were very slim he would fail.

As I've mentioned, Jesus needed his atonement just as much as we do. He required baptism "to fulfill all righteousness". IOW, it was a requirement that he also had to fulfill. He required the resurrection, just like us. And he required his own atonement - a payment for all the suffering he would go through in life.

Yes, Jesus was God in the premortal existence. He was a divine Son, who had achieved a high level of spirituality, sufficient to be a God. Note, this does not mean he was a fully finished/complete God. He still required mortality, resurrection, and a final judgment, in order to be completed. As with us, he moved from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace, until he received a fullness of grace (D&C 93).

I see Intelligence differently than that mentioned before. Intelligence is matter that is filled with the Light of Christ (which fills the immensity of space). Intelligence (also called "mind" by some) is what gives each atom its structure and innate capability. God organized matter into higher levels of intelligence (atoms into molecules into elements into life forms with individuality and personality, or spirits). Abraham 3 calls spirits, "organized intelligences".

This is a long process, which develops our many parts and particles into who we are today. Along the way, our intelligence/mind becomes complex enough to understand individuality, to make choices, to have agency. God eventually forms many into Spirit beings and they become "innocent in the beginning." IOW, newly born spirits grow up just as newly born mortals do, learning and growing as they go.

Each spirit focused on the things that mattered most to him/her. Some became experts in math, others in science. Why was Mozart so good at 4 years of age with music? Perhaps because he focused heavily on it in the premortal existence.

For God, all these talents were important to develop in his children. The most important talent to develop, however, was spirituality. Christ was foremost in this area, totally dedicated to doing the Father's will. I envision him being like Ammon, who after preserving the flocks, immediately went and prepared King Lamoni's horses and chariot without having to be reminded or asked.

While others may have murmured or demurred when it came time to obey God, Jesus was fully and always in God's court.

Jesus was so obedient that when God organized the Godhead, he called his two best spirit children to the positions of Mediator and Holy Ghost. This became the presidency of heaven. I'm sure it was also a training ground for their work with mankind in mortality.

Jesus' atonement applies to all. We do not have to be Saviors in the way Jesus was, but assistants of Christ in bringing about God's work: the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39). Jesus' atonement is accomplished in two ways: he pays for our sins, so we don't have to, and when he fills us with the Holy Ghost, we become justified and sanctified. We are made holy and worthy through Christ. As we walk in his footsteps, we perfect ourselves, receiving grace for grace as we go from one level of grace to the next, until we reach a fullness of grace in and through Christ.

This is how I see things. It all fits perfectly together.

[Traveler]

We learn from the Book of Abraham that not only was Jesus intelligent (intelligent meaning light and truth) but that he was more intelligent than all the other spiritual offspring of the Father of spirits. But the Book of Abraham goes one step farther in saying that Jesus was also more intelligent (possessed more light and truth) than all the other offspring combined.

And so at the great consul of Heaven there was a signup sheet passed around for a volunteer to be the Messiah and the first councilor in the G-dhead. There were two that signed up. One that claimed to be the most qualified was so convincing that a major group of the most intelligent beings to ever exist in eternities of the most advanced civilization that ever was joined together in an unyielding cause.

But there was another that we know today as Jesus and Jehovah that offered him and all that he owned and had that we all could become g-ds, equal citizens, in the great eternal society of heaven. He desired no glory for himself and he sacrificed more than his life as a mortal.

This was the beginning of a great war that continues even now as we become agents in war for our Father and his Son or Lucifer. And so there is war to divide the souls of men into a kingdom of a singular all powerful G-d or a kingdom of many g-ds that are united in covenant and purpose as one G-d.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I see Intelligence differently than that mentioned before. Intelligence is matter that is filled with the Light of Christ (which fills the immensity of space). Intelligence (also called "mind" by some) is what gives each atom its structure and innate capability. God organized matter into higher levels of intelligence (atoms into molecules into elements into life forms with individuality and personality, or spirits). Abraham 3 calls spirits, "organized intelligences".

This is a long process, which develops our many parts and particles into who we are today. Along the way, our intelligence/mind becomes complex enough to understand individuality, to make choices, to have agency. God eventually forms many into Spirit beings and they become "innocent in the beginning." IOW, newly born spirits grow up just as newly born mortals do, learning and growing as they go.

Each spirit focused on the things that mattered most to him/her. Some became experts in math, others in science. Why was Mozart so good at 4 years of age with music? Perhaps because he focused heavily on it in the premortal existence.

For God, all these talents were important to develop in his children. The most important talent to develop, however, was spirituality. Christ was foremost in this area, totally dedicated to doing the Father's will. I envision him being like Ammon, who after preserving the flocks, immediately went and prepared King Lamoni's horses and chariot without having to be reminded or asked.

While others may have murmured or demurred when it came time to obey God, Jesus was fully and always in God's court.

I agree with 99% of what you say here, especially with Jesus requiring atonement. I disagree with your view of spirits developing talents in the pre-earthly life and so those people are put into matching circumstances here. How would one know what earthly things you would like until you experience it. Would you know you like the taste of Root Beer before coming here? no!, likewise you would not know the joys of playing piano, the bag pipes or soccer or other activities requiring a body.

I don't know what Mozart was good at before coming here, nor do you. Like the parable of the 10 talents, those talents were given as a test, to see if the servants would be faithful in a little so they can become masters of more. Each portion we are given here, does not have a linear relationship with our spiritual propensities of the pre-earthly life, in fact it may have an inverse relationship. Those that are low will be made high. This existence is a test primarily and the exact test that I need may be different than your test and anyone else. I think the given talents here are part of what God sees as our test of heart and desires. Of course, if someone has a valiant spirit in the pre-earthly life they will continue to be valiant and obedient in this life and no matter what grouping of talents they were given they will probably excel. You think Shaquel O'neal learned how to play basketball in the pre-earthly life, I don't think so. I like to surf, and am pretty good at it, but I doubt there were waves to surf in the pre-earthly life and for that matter, likely won't be a needed skill for any of my future jobs in the here after. What about all the babies that are born with Down's, is that a reflection of their talents, just the opposite ... because they were so valiant, more valiant than you and me, their talents are limited. The only relationship we know about with valiancy and obedience to this life are those that are foreordained to positions of authority in God's church, not talents. Of course, when one is valiant in the teachings of Christ their talents will improve faster.

I personally believe we spent zero time developing earthly talents, that is why we had to come here, to learn what those are with a body. Its hard to develop body related talents, like playing a piano without actually having a piano. In fact there was a GA talk that even used that metaphor, something about a master of music trying to teach music without any musical instruments as an example of the reason we needed to come here. I think one may find they really loved music in the pre-earthly life but here had no desire for it, the body and the veil itself cover a lot.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Seminarysnoozer
typo

[Misshalfway]

Well, my PB spends a load of time talking about all my preparations in the pre earth life. I have hard time seeing that we didn't develop talents there. I don't know how specifically they relate to earthly activities, but it seems to me that some come to this earth with gifts, gifts that I suspect came long before ones conception.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Whenever I read that King Follett Sermon, I see it as JS explaining the difference between God making a physical body, like what He did with Adam and Eve and making a spiritual body which is what He did for our spirits. The difference being He created Adam and Eve from the earth which is in essence from scratch. Where with spirits He creates them by other means, possibly (we don't know) how we 'create' children here. If you think about it, when we procreate here, the material to make the baby was always around for us, it wasn't from scratch. And so if Heavenly Father and Mother 'create' a baby spirit in similar manner, the material to form that spirit child was always around, it was not created from scratch, it was more of a procreation. I think if you read that talk in that light, every time he talks about the spirit formation it makes sense to me. If HF and HM have a spirit child you have to call it procreate and not create. It doesn't give us the details but thats how I read it. And you have to keep in mind, a lot of people he was talking to believe the deceased existence began at this earthly birth. He is trying to explain that he will continue to exist after birth just like he existed before his earthly birth, a way of comforting the family about death.

[rameumptom]

Jesus did not watch it on TIVO - he watched it first hand, side by side with the Eloheim (the other gods).

It is possible to fall from immortality...

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 42:22)

Read through Alma 42. There are circumstances under which God would cease to be God...

This is not falling form immortality. This is falling from an exalted state. Huge difference. God would continue being immortal if he fell, just as Satan is immortal. He just wouldn't be exalted anymore.

The likelihood of God falling? So statistically close to zero that it becomes a zero-sum game.

[rameumptom]

I agree with 99% of what you say here, especially with Jesus requiring atonement. I disagree with your view of spirits developing talents in the pre-earthly life and so those people are put into matching circumstances here. How would one know what earthly things you would like until you experience it. Would you know you like the taste of Root Beer before coming here? no!, likewise you would not know the joys of playing piano, the bag pipes or soccer or other activities requiring a body.

I don't have my Mormon Doctrine on me, but Elder McConkie does mention that we developed talents as spirits, and that the greatest talent was spirituality.

Mormon Doctrine: PreMortal Life | Mormon History here we can read that spirits developed talents in the premortal existence.

Elder McConkie stated

By obedience, by conformity, by personal righteousness, because he elected to follow in the path of the Chosen and Beloved Son, Spencer W. Kimball was noble and great in the preexistence. Above all his other talents, he developed the talent for spirituality—the talent to believe and accept the truth, the talent to desire righteousness. (Bruce R. McConkie, “God Foreordains His Prophets and His People,” Ensign, May 1974, 71)

Elder Christoffel Golden said:

During these momentous latter days, we declare that God our Eternal Father lives. We testify that we existed in His presence, prior to this life, as His spirit children. During our premortal existence, we were tutored in conditions which provided us with the opportunity to develop our talents and abilities. In that blessed, premortal abode, we were “left to choose good or evil.” Alma states that we chose good by exercising “great faith” and performing “good works.” Thus, we kept our first estate, while our Father, in turn, foreordained us to receive certain privileges in this lifetime (Christoffel Golden Jr., “Our Father’s Plan,” Ensign, Nov 2001, 30)

As I said, we developed talents in the premortal existence, just as we are developing talents here.

[rameumptom]

This sounds too much like saying God created us to me. Our mind is our own. Our personality is our own. God did not piece some intelligences together to be good, and some to be bad, some to be smart, and some to be slow. How we start out has nothing to do with God. God helps those who listen become what they become.

I think you misunderstood me. I never said that God intentionally created individuals to be good or evil. I said he took the matter at hand, all of which contained intelligence, and developed it to a higher state.

Would you think that spirit children gaining a physical body is a progression from one state to a higher state? I definitely do, as Jacob states those who do not obtain a body are in an eternally damned state, unable to progress; and must be like the devil, even angels to the devil.

So it is on lower forms. An atom has a "mind." Each atom has specific innate capabilities/talents. When it is combined with other atoms, it obtains new capabilities, a higher mind or intelligence. Yet it is still in a state where it can only be acted upon.

As spirits, we've achieved a high enough level where we can also act for ourselves. And this is enhanced even more when we gain a physical body. It is at this stage that the term "agency" comes into play, as the spirit has gained individuality and personality - perhaps self recognition. Still, we can also be acted upon, as we have imperfections and are not immortal nor exalted (where one can then fully act without being acted upon).

We are still independent of God in that we are formed from the stuff around him. He does not create/form our personality nor our will in a specific way. Just as mortal parents do not know if the child they create/form will be an Einstein or a Manson, God also is working with an unknown quantity. Yet he takes the risk/chance that this new sentient being will choose Him to be its Father and receive eternal joy.