Who was Jesus?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Well, my PB spends a load of time talking about all my preparations in the pre earth life. I have hard time seeing that we didn't develop talents there. I don't know how specifically they relate to earthly activities, but it seems to me that some come to this earth with gifts, gifts that I suspect came long before ones conception.

Right, I just wouldn't call them talents, more like traits. ... Like the hardware of a computer before any software is loaded. The computer can be "foreordained" to be the copy room computer or the receptionists computer or the main office computer or the server depending on its 'traits' but still needs the added software to actually carry out those tasks. But a high end computer without any added software just sits there or is limited in its function.

Luckily all of us in the end will have all the software anyone ever had, we will have a perfect knowledge.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think you misunderstood me. I never said that God intentionally created individuals to be good or evil. I said he took the matter at hand, all of which contained intelligence, and developed it to a higher state.

Would you think that spirit children gaining a physical body is a progression from one state to a higher state? I definitely do, as Jacob states those who do not obtain a body are in an eternally damned state, unable to progress; and must be like the devil, even angels to the devil.

So it is on lower forms. An atom has a "mind." Each atom has specific innate capabilities/talents. When it is combined with other atoms, it obtains new capabilities, a higher mind or intelligence. Yet it is still in a state where it can only be acted upon.

As spirits, we've achieved a high enough level where we can also act for ourselves. And this is enhanced even more when we gain a physical body. It is at this stage that the term "agency" comes into play, as the spirit has gained individuality and personality - perhaps self recognition. Still, we can also be acted upon, as we have imperfections and are not immortal nor exalted (where one can then fully act without being acted upon).

We are still independent of God in that we are formed from the stuff around him. He does not create/form our personality nor our will in a specific way. Just as mortal parents do not know if the child they create/form will be an Einstein or a Manson, God also is working with an unknown quantity. Yet he takes the risk/chance that this new sentient being will choose Him to be its Father and receive eternal joy.

I still have a hard time wrapping my head around this idea that matter has a spirit of its own. If that is true, than we are a mix of billions of spirits into one because my body is made up of billions of atoms (or more). And then under that I have my actual spirit, so my spirit would be mixed with many other spirits and as I eat food I am gaining spirit (not just weight) - (thinking, cool, I can justify another piece of desert tonight )

Or if I take one rock and break it into little pieces, am I making spirits?

My feeling is that God created the world spiritually and all living things spiritually. Where are the scriptures that talk about rocks and atoms having a spirit to make them a soul?

Must of taken several millennia to create each individual spirit that goes into the gazillions of viruses out there. I think there is a difference between creating things spiritually (i.e.- God planning to do something) and creating a spirit. ...but, as I am often wrong, please help me understand.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Jesus did not watch it on TIVO - he watched it first hand, side by side with the Eloheim (the other gods).

It is possible to fall from immortality...

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 42:22)

Read through Alma 42. There are circumstances under which God would cease to be God...

I didn't say "fall from immortality" I said "fall from perfect immortality". Of course Adam was immortal and fell, but he did not have a perfected immortal body, an exahlted body.

[Moksha]

Well, my PB spends a load of time talking about all my preparations in the pre earth life. I have hard time seeing that we didn't develop talents there. I don't know how specifically they relate to earthly activities, but it seems to me that some come to this earth with gifts, gifts that I suspect came long before ones conception.

Probably spent considerable time practicing on spirit pianos and with the Heavenly Host singing Handel's Messiah. "Hallelujah, Hallelujah...".

[Misshalfway]

Actually I spent time in heaven working on my future hairdo's. How do you think I am doing? Genius, don't you think???

[rameumptom]

I still have a hard time wrapping my head around this idea that matter has a spirit of its own. If that is true, than we are a mix of billions of spirits into one because my body is made up of billions of atoms (or more). And then under that I have my actual spirit, so my spirit would be mixed with many other spirits and as I eat food I am gaining spirit (not just weight) - (thinking, cool, I can justify another piece of desert tonight )

Or if I take one rock and break it into little pieces, am I making spirits?

My feeling is that God created the world spiritually and all living things spiritually. Where are the scriptures that talk about rocks and atoms having a spirit to make them a soul?

Must of taken several millennia to create each individual spirit that goes into the gazillions of viruses out there. I think there is a difference between creating things spiritually (i.e.- God planning to do something) and creating a spirit. ...but, as I am often wrong, please help me understand.

You are confusing spirit with intelligence. Spirits are intelligence, but not all intelligence is spirit. Think of it this way: all mortals have spirits within them, but not all spirits have a physical body. Many spirits have yet to progress to the higher stage. It is celestial evolution.

Each particle has intelligence. The D&C tells us that the Light of Christ/Intelligence fills all of space, is in all things and through all things (D&C 88). It is this that animates all things and gives each thing its organization, structure, and capabilities. It is this Light that guides the planets and stars in the firmaments.

Such intelligence can be organized into higher levels of intelligence (Abraham 3 talks about the intelligences that were organized). How is this any stranger than taking a spirit and wrapping it up in a physical body, either temporarily for mortality, or for eternity in the resurrection? You still have separate entities being combined into one organism.

If you gain/lose 50 pounds, are you still not yourself? Are you made up of the same exact atoms from the day you were born? Of course not. Atoms and molecules come and go off our bodies on a daily basis. Yet for a time, each is a part of what "us" is. Each plays its role(s) and then is replaced. Or not. Yet we usually retain who we are. What happens though when we have brain damage? What happens when the hormones stop working, and our personality changes? Are not these things still "us"? Yes, they are.

All of it (and us) are interconnected via the Light of Christ which fills all of space.

[Seminarysnoozer]

You are confusing spirit with intelligence. Spirits are intelligence, but not all intelligence is spirit. Think of it this way: all mortals have spirits within them, but not all spirits have a physical body. Many spirits have yet to progress to the higher stage. It is celestial evolution.

Each particle has intelligence. The D&C tells us that the Light of Christ/Intelligence fills all of space, is in all things and through all things (D&C 88). It is this that animates all things and gives each thing its organization, structure, and capabilities. It is this Light that guides the planets and stars in the firmaments.

Such intelligence can be organized into higher levels of intelligence (Abraham 3 talks about the intelligences that were organized). How is this any stranger than taking a spirit and wrapping it up in a physical body, either temporarily for mortality, or for eternity in the resurrection? You still have separate entities being combined into one organism.

If you gain/lose 50 pounds, are you still not yourself? Are you made up of the same exact atoms from the day you were born? Of course not. Atoms and molecules come and go off our bodies on a daily basis. Yet for a time, each is a part of what "us" is. Each plays its role(s) and then is replaced. Or not. Yet we usually retain who we are. What happens though when we have brain damage? What happens when the hormones stop working, and our personality changes? Are not these things still "us"? Yes, they are.

All of it (and us) are interconnected via the Light of Christ which fills all of space.

Well, I guess that is the thing I am having a hard time understanding. I've never thought of spirits and intelligences as being made up of separate matter. I thought they were made of the same matter. I can easily see how things not made up of the same matter can occupy one space like the spirit and the body. I have a hard time comprehending the same type of matter occupying the same space though. So you would say a spirit could enter another spirit?

[Traveler]

Well, I guess that is the thing I am having a hard time understanding. I've never thought of spirits and intelligences as being made up of separate matter. I thought they were made of the same matter. I can easily see how things not made up of the same matter can occupy one space like the spirit and the body. I have a hard time comprehending the same type of matter occupying the same space though. So you would say a spirit could enter another spirit?

Science has some interesting insights on matter. Keep in mind that what many think of as energy is in reality a particular state of matter. Matter and energy are different states of the same thing. Often in science we study the separate properties of matter/energy as particles or waves. There are things of matter that can occupy the same space, like photons. In the theory of special relativity matter “bends” space and time. The concept of a black hole is that space becomes so bent that all matter and space becomes a singularity occupying the same one dimensional space.

The other interesting factor in all this is light. Matter and energy are also related by light. It is interesting to me that one of the words used to describe spirit stuff in LDS revelation is light. Light and intelligence are identified as the same thing. Again looking at scientific theory – light is the “wild card” in the Big Bang theory. It is the one beyond the event horizon concept that transcends a dimensional collapse which is the general speculation of the Big Bang trigger. I will end here because to move forward would cause me to divulge some of my working speculation of light as the principle for matter (as in an individual) being eternal. There are some on this forum that have already had a coronary with anything that unifies scientific and religious truth.

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

Well, I guess that is the thing I am having a hard time understanding. I've never thought of spirits and intelligences as being made up of separate matter. I thought they were made of the same matter. I can easily see how things not made up of the same matter can occupy one space like the spirit and the body. I have a hard time comprehending the same type of matter occupying the same space though. So you would say a spirit could enter another spirit?

You have to remember something about atoms and molecules: they are mostly empty space.

There are particles that can pass entirely through the earth with very small chance of hitting anything along the way. So, there's nothing that says a spirit cannot fit into a physical body, or that intelligences cannot be organized together to create/form a spirit being.

Also, intelligence and spirits aren't necessarily made up of different matter, just matter that is organized to different levels. Then, when combined to make molecules, we get a higher level of organization and capability. Imagine a world without water, because hydrogen and oxygen atoms didn't attract one another and organize into H2O. All of the continual interactions (I breathe oxygen, expel carbon dioxide, trees breathe carbon dioxide, expel oxygen) link us together, yet we are still separate individuals. So it is with the atoms and molecules that make us-they are continually replaced, but we remain ourselves.

Atoms are made up of protons, neutrons and electrons. All atoms are made of these. The difference is in how many of each is used, and in what order they are arranged which makes up the various atoms and ions. Spirit is just organized intelligence matter. It is just that it is more highly organized than intelligence matter that is organized to make a rock.

Edited November 6, 2009 by rameumptom

[Seminarysnoozer]

You have to remember something about atoms and molecules: they are mostly empty space.

There are particles that can pass entirely through the earth with very small chance of hitting anything along the way. So, there's nothing that says a spirit cannot fit into a physical body, or that intelligences cannot be organized together to create/form a spirit being.

Also, intelligence and spirits aren't necessarily made up of different matter, just matter that is organized to different levels. Then, when combined to make molecules, we get a higher level of organization and capability. Imagine a world without water, because hydrogen and oxygen atoms didn't attract one another and organize into H2O. All of the continual interactions (I breathe oxygen, expel carbon dioxide, trees breathe carbon dioxide, expel oxygen) link us together, yet we are still separate individuals. So it is with the atoms and molecules that make us-they are continually replaced, but we remain ourselves.

Atoms are made up of protons, neutrons and electrons. All atoms are made of these. The difference is in how many of each is used, and in what order they are arranged which makes up the various atoms and ions. Spirit is just organized intelligence matter. It is just that it is more highly organized than intelligence matter that is organized to make a rock.

Then with that description, there is no "spirit" of a rock per se. There would just be billions and billions of atom spirits all grouped together as part of a single rock but still maintain their individual creation of atom spirits or whatever smaller unit spirits are made of. And when the rock is split in half, you didn't break a 'spirit' but just broke apart a grouping of a whole bunch of spirits. But then that would mean eventually there would have to be some final common unit or quantum of spirit and likely it is not an atom, something smaller than that. Because there are isotopes of atoms, like protium or hydride. So then you would have to say God made googolplexes of spirits to occupy the smallest of particles, like each quark, nutrino and lepton and all the other ones that are just theoretical etc., or even smaller. That is hard to comprehend. I guess I have a hard time understanding why God would make an individual spirit for a single quark in the universe.

[Moksha]

I guess I have a hard time understanding why God would make an individual spirit for a single quark in the universe.

The proverbial spirit flat rock is to skip across the spirit lake. If material did not have spirits, how could it pass through brick walls!

No need to put energy into making sense of a speculation. Its truth is indeterminable. Better to lean back in your computer chair, take a deep breath and have a diet coke.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The proverbial spirit flat rock is to skip across the spirit lake. If material did not have spirits, how could it pass through brick walls!

No need to put energy into making sense of a speculation. Its truth is indeterminable. Better to lean back in your computer chair, take a deep breath and have a diet coke.

How did you know I like diet coke? ...*looks out the window to see if someone is watching

[Misshalfway]

So I found this scripture last night in my study.

Acts 2:22-23

22"Ye men of Israel, hear these words: jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know;"

23"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain;"

I read this and was struck by the language I bolded above. That Jesus was approved of God among "you"....like among all of us children of God, not amongst all the gods.

And then, in the second verse, I am assuming taht the determinate counsel has something to do with the events in the pre earth life when Jesus was chosen as well.

Am I reading this correctly?

I guess I am seeing that even the early apostles and saints seem to understand this.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Science has some interesting insights on matter. Keep in mind that what many think of as energy is in reality a particular state of matter. Matter and energy are different states of the same thing. Often in science we study the separate properties of matter/energy as particles or waves. There are things of matter that can occupy the same space, like photons. In the theory of special relativity matter “bends” space and time. The concept of a black hole is that space becomes so bent that all matter and space becomes a singularity occupying the same one dimensional space.

The other interesting factor in all this is light. Matter and energy are also related by light. It is interesting to me that one of the words used to describe spirit stuff in LDS revelation is light. Light and intelligence are identified as the same thing. Again looking at scientific theory – light is the “wild card” in the Big Bang theory. It is the one beyond the event horizon concept that transcends a dimensional collapse which is the general speculation of the Big Bang trigger. I will end here because to move forward would cause me to divulge some of my working speculation of light as the principle for matter (as in an individual) being eternal. There are some on this forum that have already had a coronary with anything that unifies scientific and religious truth.

The Traveler

Spirit matter though is actually matter, at least that's what I thought. I realize its not the same matter as here on earth, its a finer more pure form of matter, but I never thought of it as massless matter. And I never thought of our spirits needing to replenish itself and reform itself as our earthly body does, I thought once the spirit is formed it is permanent, it is an eternal structure. Am I wrong, or is it simply unknown. I hear responses like yours and sounds like it is backed with some kind of insight that seems different than my perceptions. It seems that if the spirits were some kind of universal energy like light than God would simply destroy the third that didn't follow his plan, why waste material? But if the spirit is a permanent structure that has to remain eternal in its state then all He could do is cast them down and out of His presence. A mortal body can return to dust because that's where it came from, but I don't think once a spirit is formed, even the spirit of a cat or dog etc., can be returned to its native basic material. That's just my opinion until someone explains it differently.

[Just_A_Guy]

Found something.

So is it saying God dwelt on an Earth like Jesus in a God had to "play" the redeemer role?

Or God dwelt as a man on the same earth Jesus did, pre this earth?

Well, that would play into the old idea of "multiple mortal probations" (which closely ties in with Adam-God): you go through life as a run-of-the-mill human, then (assuming you've done well) as an Adam, then as a Jesus, and finally attain the state God the Father currently enjoys.

On a less-controversial note, though: I think there's a quote out there from Orson F. Whitney or James E. Talmage that by virtue of being the eldest of the spirits created by God, the role of Savior by right belonged to Jehovah so long as He was worthy to assume that role.

[rameumptom]

Then with that description, there is no "spirit" of a rock per se. There would just be billions and billions of atom spirits all grouped together as part of a single rock but still maintain their individual creation of atom spirits or whatever smaller unit spirits are made of. And when the rock is split in half, you didn't break a 'spirit' but just broke apart a grouping of a whole bunch of spirits. But then that would mean eventually there would have to be some final common unit or quantum of spirit and likely it is not an atom, something smaller than that. Because there are isotopes of atoms, like protium or hydride. So then you would have to say God made googolplexes of spirits to occupy the smallest of particles, like each quark, nutrino and lepton and all the other ones that are just theoretical etc., or even smaller. That is hard to comprehend. I guess I have a hard time understanding why God would make an individual spirit for a single quark in the universe.

Let me try and explain this again. Spirit does not equal intelligence.

Spirit is made of intelligence, but intelligence is not necessarily a spirit. Just like our physical bodies are made of billions of atoms, molecules and cells, each doing different things in conjunction with others; intelligences gather to form rocks, etc.

Intelligence is gathered and organized to form spirit bodies, as well. So you can have intelligences that are organized into atoms, molecules, livers, rocks, photons, spirits or human bodies. But they are not a spirit, but just components from which spirits can be formed.

Does a rock have intelligence? Yes. Does a rock have a spirit? No. Huge difference and important to differentiate in order to understand it all.

[Misshalfway]

Does a rock have a spirit? No.

Wait. I thought everything (IE. rocks, trees, flowers, plants, my dog) was created spiritually BEFORE it was created physically.

[Justice]

I guess I am seeing that even the early apostles and saints seem to understand this.

Beyond a doubt...

It's clear the early church understood much of what's been restored in these latter days.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Let me try and explain this again. Spirit does not equal intelligence.

Spirit is made of intelligence, but intelligence is not necessarily a spirit. Just like our physical bodies are made of billions of atoms, molecules and cells, each doing different things in conjunction with others; intelligences gather to form rocks, etc.

Intelligence is gathered and organized to form spirit bodies, as well. So you can have intelligences that are organized into atoms, molecules, livers, rocks, photons, spirits or human bodies. But they are not a spirit, but just components from which spirits can be formed.

Does a rock have intelligence? Yes. Does a rock have a spirit? No. Huge difference and important to differentiate in order to understand it all.

What is your best guess as to why a piece of rock at the bottom of earths crust has "intelligence"? It's not like the intelligence can act on the rock. I believe God can act on material, but why would it actually need some "intelligence" inside of it, only assigned to that rock? I think by definition, "intelligence" has to be enough material together to actually contain some amount of intelligence. A rock has zero intelligence. Why would there have to be an "intelligence" assigned to something that could not express any bit of intelligence at all? I believe God creates everything spiritually, meaning He planned ahead. Maybe there is a spirit for the whole earth as a whole. To me, in my limiting understanding, that is like saying I am going to flow electricity through a piece of paper because I want to give "life" to everything like "life" given to a computer when it has electricity. Electricity on a piece of paper does as much as "intelligence" on a rock, in my mind. If that's what the authorities have said, I will believe it, I just have a hard time understanding it.

[Just_A_Guy]

Does a rock have intelligence? Yes.

So, next time someone says I'm "dumb as a rock" . . .

[rameumptom]

Intelligence is the Light of Christ, which permeates all of space, is in all things, around all things and through all things (D&C 88). Therefore, every rock has intelligence.

That is different than a rock having a spirit, which is an advanced form of intelligence, which has its own identity and personality.

All things were created spiritually, means that all things were formed through spiritual processes first; not that they necessarily have a spirit within them. Besides, to be technical, the Book of Moses would suggest that the Earth has a spirit, therefore individual rocks would not need to have spirits, as they are a part of the earth.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Intelligence is the Light of Christ, which permeates all of space, is in all things, around all things and through all things (D&C 88). Therefore, every rock has intelligence.

That is different than a rock having a spirit, which is an advanced form of intelligence, which has its own identity and personality.

All things were created spiritually, means that all things were formed through spiritual processes first; not that they necessarily have a spirit within them. Besides, to be technical, the Book of Moses would suggest that the Earth has a spirit, therefore individual rocks would not need to have spirits, as they are a part of the earth.

"Intelligence" has different meanings. So if you are saying that a rock has intelligence by referring to the intelligence that permeates everything then I see that as different from an intelligence that is placed in a certain sphere to act on its own. Okay, thanks for clarifying that. One last question though (shouldn't say last, probably won't be) ... the permeating intelligence through everything may or may not be the same stuff that was used to make our spirits, right?

Topical Guide:

Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are:1 It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed.2 The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God.3 The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.

The spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children is listed as a third type of intelligence, separate from the "light and truth" that gives light and life to everything in the universe.

[rameumptom]

I think Intelligence is intelligence, but can be manifested in different forms. Einstein showed that energy = matter, and space = time.

Intelligence can be light and truth of God, which permeates all of space. And it can be intelligence in one form (such as photons are one form of particle wave). Then intelligence can also be described as higher life forms made up of combined intelligence quanta (or whatever you wish to call it).

[TheAngelPalmoni]

The Holy Ghost of the Last Plan of Salvation and the Father of the Next Plan of Salvation.

The Holy Ghost

Angel Palmoni

[Hemidakota]

I am asking similar questions. For some reason, who God the Father is doesn't perplex me as much as who Jesus is. What makes Jesus so special? How did he become part of the Godhead in the pre-earth life? Does being born first make all the difference? Or is it because he was chosen and preserved from imperfection? What were his preparations ? Or was he not able to perform the Atonement until he was physically sired by God himself and had a body of flesh and blood and the natural man to contend with? Not that the plan wasn't set up to succeed.

If one could view the past [pre-mortal state prior to the offering of the Plan of Salvation], you noticed a vast difference of character between both of them - Lucifer and Jehovah. The difference is the special love for not only HIS creator but for others in succeeding in doing the FATHER’s will. This was the choosing of the Jehovah in becoming the Savior, His role as the Firstborn, or the Christ for this world. Lucifer did not show or reveal the same capacity of love for others but of himself and what he could achieve before others.

Could there been others in being a Savior? Perhaps but not many…it would take a special and very devoted being from the beginning of creation to this mortal life in succeeding in completing that portion of the FATHER’s plan.

The Atonement required one special physical aspect with being borne part GOD, is choosing death over life. The Savior could have saved Himself from death and even to the point of healing Himself since He is not bound by physical laws. In choosing death being perfect and part GOD, it is His agency to choose to pay for our lives that satisfied Justice. This could not be done by being borne of natural parents. If there is a man borne today with both parents, is this person sinless? No! I have not met anyone on this planet that fits this description. There are some who are close but not perfect.