Why did satan tempt Adam and Eve to eat the friut?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Questions for Justice:

1. What is it about "death" that makes our redemption from sin possible? And if death is essential to the salvation of fallen man, what then of those few individuals (Moses, Elijah, John the Beloved the 3 Nephites, possibly Alma the Younger himself) who will never taste of death? Are they then not to be saved?

I'll take a stab at Justice's questions before he gets back from work... Death is the separation of the mortal body from the spirit. Even in cases of translation, the mortal body was taken from the spirit and in no time changed to an immortal body without them "tasting" death. Death marks the end of the probationary state. If a test (probationary state) goes on forever it no longer is a test but life. A 'test' has to have an end to tally up the score. Once the score is tallied then a full accounting and respective award can take place. You can't have complete redemption until the test is over.

Also this body is corrupted, it is of a lower form than Gods that can't exist in His presence. To even have a chance to be in His presence we can't remain in this corrupted form. This body is not capable of doing what God's body can. It would be like saying I'm going to make a flight simulator really fly. No matter how hard you try and no matter how adept you are at using the simulator you are never going to get a flight simulator off the ground without actually having a plane. We have to trade in our simulators for the real thing eventually. The trade in requires separation of your spirit from it, death.

[rameumptom]

Lehi. But Paul says almost the opposite, FWIW--that Eve was deceived, but Adam was not.

I tend to think Paul often speculated and conjectured on things. Plus the fact that 1/2 of Paul's writings were probably not written by him can also be an issue.

Second, in the Book of Moses, we see that Eve had a better understanding of the atonement than Adam:

Moses 6:10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my deyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God. 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

Adam only saw how it affected himself. Eve foresaw not only resurrection for herself, but of the entire plan of happiness: having seed, redemption and eternal life.

I'm thinking it wasn't just the woman being deceived, if either was. And both came to an understanding, albeit Eve seems to have received a greater understanding at first.

[Just_A_Guy]

I tend to think Paul often speculated and conjectured on things. Plus the fact that 1/2 of Paul's writings were probably not written by him can also be an issue.

SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!!!

Second, in the Book of Moses, we see that Eve had a better understanding of the atonement than Adam:

Adam only saw how it affected himself. Eve foresaw not only resurrection for herself, but of the entire plan of happiness: having seed, redemption and eternal life.

I'm not sure I'd go that far. Does Moses record these because he thought they were accurate sum-ups of what each individual understood? Or because these are the messages he wanted his readers to understand, regardless of who the original speaker was?

I'm thinking it wasn't just the woman being deceived, if either was. And both came to an understanding, albeit Eve seems to have received a greater understanding at first.

Eve herself admits to having been "beguiled", in both Genesis and Moses. Whatever she came to understand afterwards, she apparently did not fully comprehend the implications of her decision at the time that she made it. I don't think Paul's making much of a stretch here.

What of Adam, though? His words as quoted in Genesis and Moses could be interpreted either as an explanation or an excuse.

[Justice]

1. What is it about "death" that makes our redemption from sin possible?

That's a great question. In fact, this whole line of questioning shows you have been giving this matter deep study and thought.

This post is quickly typed and not proofread, so excuse any typos.

Here is the best scripture I know to help answer this question. After the fall, Alma said this of the "state of death" man was in:

Alma 42:

8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.

9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.

Do you see the significance?

OK... here we go. God's children cannot rebel against Him or eternal law while in His presence because if they do justice takes over and they are expelled from His presence forever (Lucifer and the fallen ones). But, in order to progress beyond the state of innocence His children were in, and learn to have children for themselves, and learn to make right choices for themselves, they had to experience both.

So, He created an earth and placed His spirit offspring in physical bodies so that when they sinned they would "fall" to a state of mortality, thereby instead of eternal death they would suffer a temporary state where they could repent before they answered for their sin. This mortal existence is a state of separation from God (even forgetting that we once existed with Him). Once man was mortal he gained the knowledge of good and evil by experiencing temptation and sin.

If during a man's mortal probation period, or a period of time, the man set aside the things of the world and saught the things of God, or became born again as to the things of God, that man's sins could be answered for to justice by a Savior who paid the debt.

This state of mortality "separates" us from an eternal punishment for a time because we are separated from God for a time. So, before we are judged, we have the opportunity to exercise faith in Christ and repent. If our sin is purged and washed clean we can re-enter God's presence with the desire to do good continually... having gained the knowledge of good and evil, a physical body, and the ability or knowledge of procreation.

And if death is essential to the salvation of fallen man, what then of those few individuals (Moses, Elijah, John the Beloved the 3 Nephites, possibly Alma the Younger himself) who will never taste of death? Are they then not to be saved?

Spiritual rebirth is essential to fallen man. Once a man has been spiritually reborn they can be redeemed from physical death. If they are reborn while in mortality then they can be redeemed from death without experiencing death.

Another way of looking at it, and if you read Alma 42 closely, this very existence is termed "death." So, since they were mortal, the experienced death.

Why was the tree of life placed in the garden in the first place?

I'm not exactly sure. I know there has to be opposition, but I don't think that's the real answer as to why. But, I have speculated a great deal about this, and your next question plays a role...

Why did Satan not anticipate that God would put a physical barrier between fallen man and the tree of life? Isn't that kind of elementary?

Let me start by asking a question. Does God ever interfere with man's moral agency?

It's a quick and simple question, but one not answered quickly. I believe, after much pondering, praying, and studying, that He does not. Moving forward with that answer, it creates some difficulty with God placing a barrier so that adam and Eve could not eat of the tree of life after they partook of the forbidden fruit.

The scriptures make no mention of Adam and Eve making a decision NO TO parake of the tree of life at that time, but I think it's the only expanation that fits, at least at this point.

Satan told Eve that she would not surely die after she ate the fruit, and that was after God told Eve she would surely die after she ate the fruit. Now, I don't know how much Eve knew about death. How can one who cannot die understand death? I don't think they fully understood the consequences.

I believe Alma 12 and 42 describe Satan's plan. He told Eve she would not die because all she had to do was eat of the tree of life afterward (which she knew was there because she saw it and maybe even ate of it already) and they wouldn't die. That's a possible reason for why it was there. So, if Adam and Eve made a second decision to "die" instead of partake of the tree of life and become immortal right then, it makes the whole Garden of Eve story much more clear.

Once they made their choice then God guarded it to "keep it's way." They had to be expelled from the Garden because they could no longer live in "God's presence."

So, I believe Adam and Eve made the choice to follow through with God's plan and become mortal, or to enter the state of death, instead of partaking the tree of life and going along with Satan.

It says "if it were possible" that they could eat the tree of life immediately afterward, but I don't think it means God interfered with their agency. If He did, and He made it not possible for them to eat it, then He interfered with their agency.

We know from 1 Nephi 11:22 and 25 that Nephi's tree of life was a symbol for the love of God. Is the symbolism behind the tree of life in the Eden narrative similar? How do we know?

I do believe the tree in the garden represented the love of God. I have my opinion as to what I think "the love of God" is. I'm not sure I want to say, though. After this post, many will think me crazy enough.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Justice

[RipplecutBuddha]

Does anyone see why Satan's plan would have worked? (speaking of the plan outlined in Alma 12 and 42)

I mean didn't God want Adam and Eve to partake of the tree of life after they partook of the forbidden fruit anyway?

What was fundamentally different about Satan's plan, and why did his plan have the power to remove the agency of man (or destroy the agency of man) and make it to where even the great Jehova could no longer save us?

Yes, Satan's plan would have worked, but only to advance his own selfish goals. An eternal princple that is avoided in Satan's plan is personal accountability. Let me lay it out...Satan said "I'll be the Savior, and I'll save every last one of them. I won't let them make any decisions, they'll never be imperfect, and they'll all come back."

Here's the catch...If nobody ever sins...then what need is there of a Savior in the first place?? Satan was basically setting up himself as the ultimate lottery winner...He gets all the power and glory of God...for doing nothing at all. Under Satan's plan, he wouldn't have to suffer a single second for anyone's sins...because there wouldn't be any to pay for. He was seeking the rewards of being a Savior without having to be accountable for anyone's sins at all.

Also, God didn't want Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life after partaking of the forbidden fruit, and here's why. After partaking of the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve lost their state of perfection and innocence. Because of that, if they had partaken of the fruit of the Tree of Life, they would have regained immortality, but not innocence. As such they would have forever been lost, forever separated from God. Certainly he didn't want that.

also, if they had partaken of the fruit of the tree of life, they would have lost the ability to 'multiply and replenish the earth', thus destroying all of God's plan forever.

Just some of my thoughts.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Let me start by asking a question. Does God ever interfere with man's moral agency?

It's a quick and simple question, but one not answered quickly. I believe, after much pondering, praying, and studying, that He does not. Moving forward with that answer, it creates some difficulty with God placing a barrier so that adam and Eve could not eat of the tree of life after they partook of the forbidden fruit.

What do you mean by 'interfere'? Alma 12 says that those that harden their hearts to them is given a lesser portion. One's agency is affected when there are fewer choices available. And the opposite when one has faith and diligence they will be given a greater degree of knowledge. When God appeared to Joseph, that suddenly 'interfered' with his agency. He no longer had the agency to believe in God by faith, because he saw Him. So, what do you mean by 'interfere'?

[Just_A_Guy]

Lots to think about there, Justice. I'll have to process it when I have a bit more time and get back to you. :)

[MarginOfError]

It's my understanding that Satan is overwhelmed with a desire to be god. He craves nothing more than to have the position that belongs to our Father in Heaven. Very presumptuously, he took it upon himself to do the things that he thought God would do. In essence, he was living out his fantasy of being god.

[Moksha]

There is so much wonderful symbolism in the Creation Story. Just considering the fruit and the roll of knowledge conjures up a vital turning point in the Ascendancy of Man (as part of God's plan) where on the plains of the Serengeti, the proto-man evolves from a creature of instinctual knowledge to a creature of learning and expanding knowledge - making that step in the evolutionary process of becoming closer to the image of God possible.

The beneficial change of genetic code that allows for knowledge, and speech as a communicating force in passing on that knowledge, should stand as a proud avatar for fruit growers everywhere!

[Justice]

Also, God didn't want Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life after partaking of the forbidden fruit, and here's why. After partaking of the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve lost their state of perfection and innocence. Because of that, if they had partaken of the fruit of the Tree of Life, they would have regained immortality, but not innocence. As such they would have forever been lost, forever separated from God. Certainly he didn't want that.

Also, if they had partaken of the fruit of the tree of life, they would have lost the ability to 'multiply and replenish the earth', thus destroying all of God's plan forever.

I don't think they would have lost the knowledge or ability. Losing the knowledge or ability would not result in them being lost forever, with no chance at redemption, since it could always be regained or relearned.

The problem was that if they regained immortality before they had children then the family of man, all of Eve's descendants, would have been immortal. Satan knew that and that's what he wanted. The problem is that Jesus Christ would have been born immortal (no blood), hence no shedding of blood, no sacrifice, no redemption.

So, literally, it would have been impossible to redeem man from the fall. THAT would have destroyed the agency of man... not that he couldn't choose, but that his choice would have meant absolutely nothing because choosing God was meaningless without the ability to return to Him.

This makes Alma 12 and 42 make perfect sense, since it says "if Adam (and Eve) would have partaken of the tree of life immediately after man would not have become mortal." But, mortality WAS granted to man...

Check it out... Alma 12 and 42.

[Justice]

What do you mean by 'interfere'? Alma 12 says that those that harden their hearts to them is given a lesser portion. One's agency is affected when there are fewer choices available. And the opposite when one has faith and diligence they will be given a greater degree of knowledge. When God appeared to Joseph, that suddenly 'interfered' with his agency. He no longer had the agency to believe in God by faith, because he saw Him. So, what do you mean by 'interfere'?

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Had they partook of the tree of life after eating the forbidden fruit the door of redemption would have been closed... destroying the agency of man. So, I'm asking if God would "interfere" and guard it so Adam and Eve could not eat it even if they wanted to.

The thing about Joseph Smith is that He had to exercise faith before God appeared to him. So, his agency in that wasn't interfered with. It's not until after man exercises faith that the miracle happens. In my mind the 2 are different, unless after eating the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve actually made the choice to become mortal instead of going back to an immortal state... which is clearly what Satan wanted for them.

[rameumptom]

Yes, Satan's plan would have worked, but only to advance his own selfish goals. An eternal princple that is avoided in Satan's plan is personal accountability. Let me lay it out...Satan said "I'll be the Savior, and I'll save every last one of them. I won't let them make any decisions, they'll never be imperfect, and they'll all come back."

Here's the catch...If nobody ever sins...then what need is there of a Savior in the first place??

Satan's plan was to save all mankind. And all could have been saved with his plan, probably. However, none could have been exalted. Satan's plan would have made us telestial at best, and saved even those worthy of perdition. But none would have had the ability to be like Heavenly Father, which is why I believe Satan offered himself as a replacement for God. If we couldn't be like God the Father, we could definitely grow up to be like God Lucifer. He would redefine what salvation meant, rendering it meaningless.

With no opposition or pain, there would have been no growth, no exaltation. Things would basically have remained in stasis, having no opposition (2 Ne 2). There would have been no real existence, as it requires growth to exist. Entropy would have set in, as there would have been no organizing occurring, nor any expansion of kingdoms in the universe.

[Misshalfway]

Satan's plan would have saved us in our sins, not from them. I think he may have thought he could pull it all off but I don't think he appreciated the laws of justice and their eternal demands. So, I would have to disagree that his plan would actually work. I think he just thought if he manipulated things enough he could get around it.

[Vort]

It's my understanding that Satan is overwhelmed with a desire to be god. He craves nothing more than to have the position that belongs to our Father in Heaven. Very presumptuously, he took it upon himself to do the things that he thought God would do. In essence, he was living out his fantasy of being god.

My understanding is similar to MoE's. Satan's only "plan" was to usurp God's glory and destroy the agency of man. The idea that Lucifer was deeply concerned for his spiritual siblings and only wanted what was best for everyone is nonsense.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Satan's plan was to save all mankind. And all could have been saved with his plan, probably. However, none could have been exalted. Satan's plan would have made us telestial at best, and saved even those worthy of perdition. But none would have had the ability to be like Heavenly Father, which is why I believe Satan offered himself as a replacement for God. If we couldn't be like God the Father, we could definitely grow up to be like God Lucifer. He would redefine what salvation meant, rendering it meaningless.

With no opposition or pain, there would have been no growth, no exaltation. Things would basically have remained in stasis, having no opposition (2 Ne 2). There would have been no real existence, as it requires growth to exist. Entropy would have set in, as there would have been no organizing occurring, nor any expansion of kingdoms in the universe.

This is right. I think some of us though have a hard time with the word "save" when used with Lucifer's method because the way I understand it he basically said we don't need a savior. I think his suggestion was to not have a fall and therefore no savior. I think he knew Jesus would beat him out hands down for that job title, 'savior', so he wanted to change the need for having a savior and then take the credit for that idea. I don't think his idea would have resulted in even telestial status because those members have a body. Satan's proposition allowed for no body, he couldn't give an immortal body. But, I agree, this is talking about an impossibility so there really is no description of something that couldn't happen. We can only really say some of what it couldn't be.

[Justice]

I think his suggestion was to not have a fall and therefore no savior.

Or, as described in Alma 12 and 42, to have a fall and immediately seve man from physical death... before any offspring were bron so that all offspring (mankind) would be born immortal. Again, in his mind, not needing a savior.

I think the fact that he tempted Eve to fall suggests that he wanted them to fall.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Or, as described in Alma 12 and 42, to have a fall and immediately seve man from physical death... before any offspring were bron so that all offspring (mankind) would be born immortal. Again, in his mind, not needing a savior.

I think the fact that he tempted Eve to fall suggests that he wanted them to fall.

Thought we were talking about his original plan presented to the host of heaven, not the change of plans after it was rejected. He didn't want us to have any agency at all, so he couldn't have included a fall in the original idea.

Elder Kendrik, seventies Ensign 1996

"The Council in Heaven. References in the revelations give evidence that a Grand Council was convened during our premortal life. All of Heavenly Father’s spiritual children were there. The purpose of the council was to prepare us for our earthly experiences. We were taught all that we would need to know to return to Heavenly Father’s presence one day. We did indeed receive “[our] first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord.”

After the plan of salvation was presented for a sustaining vote, Heavenly Father inquired as to whom He should send to put the plan into effect in mortality. Satan responded with an alteration of the plan, a version conceived with an evil intent. He said: “I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost … ; wherefore give me thine honor.” Satan’s plan would indeed “destroy the agency of man.” Selfish and senseless, his plan defied eternal law. It was an impossible plan, for without moral agency no one could become exalted. Today he continues to activate parts of his evil plan, appealing to the carnal tendencies of man through temptations. If we are not aware, we may find ourselves being lured by Satan’s temptations, and if we follow his plan we will become like him. "

His plan was to destroy agency, so there would have been no temptation needed in his original idea. After, he could only "activate parts of his evil plan," as stated above.