Book of Mormon Trivia

[Vort]

Both. All. Any.

[pam]

Congrats! And speaking of nephews...

Approximately how old was Jacob when his son (and Nephi's nephew) Enos was born? Roughly, not to the year.

Okay I'll give this a shot. Around 88 years old?

[Vort]

Okay I'll give this a shot. Around 88 years old?

That's roughly my estimate. Actually, I tried to be very generous and came out with mid-to-late 70s. But in any case, Jacob must certainly have married (or remarried) late in life and produced a child while a septuagenarian or octogenarian.

[pam]

I was reading on another site that Jacob was born approx 598 BC and Enos was born approx 510 BC. I don't know how accurate that is.

[Vort]

I was reading on another site that Jacob was born approx 598 BC and Enos was born approx 510 BC. I don't know how accurate that is.

I would be interested to see that timeline and the reasoning supporting it. I was supposing Jacob's birth to be more like 595 BC and Enos to have been born at around 520 BC to perhaps 515 BC.

[RipplecutBuddha]

RipplecutBuddah,

How did I do?

* in a horrible french accent *

You did verra nice...Though I'm not too sure about the D, I'm pretty sure you're right. I had them listed in an old seminary triple, but I can't seem to find it right now...

Vort's the winner....

Oh, and it's also interesting to note that traditional hebraic names never start with these letters either, though that's hardly something one could have expected Joseph Smith to know when he was 'making up' the Book of Mormon and inventing over 300 new names from thin air.... :)

Edited November 12, 2009 by RipplecutBuddha
not any good one...reason, that is...

[Connie]

How long was it between king Noah's fleeing/execution and the return of the Nephites (both under Limhi and under Alma) to the main group at Zarahemla?

Uhhh... 25 years?

[pam]

I would be interested to see that timeline and the reasoning supporting it. I was supposing Jacob's birth to be more like 595 BC and Enos to have been born at around 520 BC to perhaps 515 BC.

I had sent Vort a pm with a link to a website where a guy has worked out a Book of Mormon timeline. I was hesitant to post it publically as I didn't know how accurate it was.

Vort has convinced me it might be worthwhile to post it and possibly a discussion of it's accuracy could be made.

So here is the link: JAREDWOOD.COM - Book of Mormon Timeline

[Wingnut]

I just pulled out my Triple Combination and turned to the D section of the Index. While not a "character" in the Book of Mormon, David is referred to in 2 Nephi 19:7 and Jacob 1:15 and 2:23-24.

[pam]

(Medium difficulty) To whom did Nephi (son of Lehi) bequeath the large plates?

Okay going back to this question because I just came across something on this. In the book "Book of Mormon Reference Companion" page 646 it shows this as to who had the large plates of Nephi.

Nephi

Succession of unnamed Nephite Kings

Mosiah

Benjamin, son of Mosiah

Mosiah, son of Benjamin

Alma, son of Alma

Helaman, son of Alma

Shiblon, son of Alma

Helaman, son of Helaman

Nephi, son of Helaman

Nephi, son of Nephi

Amos, son of Nephi

Amos, son of Amos

Ammaron, brother of Amos

Mormon, son of Mormon

Moroni, son of Mormon

Edited November 13, 2009 by pam
double entry

[Vort]

Uhhh... 25 years?

That's about what it looks like to me, maybe a couple or three years less. It was about 25 years from the time Abinadi was executed under Noah until Alma and his people were led to Zarahemla and all the Nephites reunited.

I think we often don't realize that the Nephites under Limhi were in servitude to the Lamanites for a full generation. Under Alma, they fared better since they were free for at least the first four or five years after leaving Noah's kingship. But even then, after Amulon's kidnapping of the Lamanite daughters, they also spent somewhere around 20 years in bondage -- though of course their bondage was attended by miraculous interventions.

Next question on this: Why were the people under Alma brought into bondage at all? Weren't they righteous and serving the Lord as best they knew? Mosiah 23:21 says simply, "Nevertheless the Lord seeth fit to chasten his people; yea, he trieth their patience and their faith." But I am thinking of a very specific reason why the people under Alma had to have been brought into bondage, despite their righteousness.

[Connie]

It was specifically prophesied by Abinadi (Mosiah 12: 2-8). They had to be brought into bondage to fulfill the prophesy (see D&C 29:10).

[Vort]

It was specifically prophesied by Abinadi (Mosiah 12: 2-8). They had to be brought into bondage to fulfill the prophesy (see D&C 29:10).

There's the windup...swing...IT'S OUTTA HERE!!!

It should be noted that the previous chapter tells of Abinadi preaching that the people WOULD BE brought into bondage IF THEY DIDN'T REPENT. So they were warned, fair and square. After their continued sinfulness for two more years, they had fully earned their bondage -- even those who later repented.

Edited November 13, 2009 by Vort

[Vort]

I had sent Vort a pm with a link to a website where a guy has worked out a Book of Mormon timeline. I was hesitant to post it publically as I didn't know how accurate it was.

Vort has convinced me it might be worthwhile to post it and possibly a discussion of it's accuracy could be made.

So here is the link: JAREDWOOD.COM - Book of Mormon Timeline

I like Jared's effort, but I disagree with many of his dates. For example, we know that during the transoceanic voyage in 592-591 BC, when Nephi was bound by his brothers, Sariah was still nursing, as described in 1 Nephi 18:19:

And Jacob and Joseph also, being young, having need of much nourishment, were grieved because of the afflictions of their mother; and also my wife with her tears and prayers, and also my children, did not soften the hearts of my brethren that they would loose me.

Now, I realize that the ancients tended to nurse their children later than we do, but if Jacob had been born in 598 BC as Jared supposes, he would be six or seven years old by this point. While it is not completely unheard-of for a woman to nurse her child to this age, I think it's highly unusual in almost every culture. I think a birthyear of around 595 BC, maybe even after, is much likelier because it's more in line with the whole nursing thing.

Jared is also supposing Jacob to have been 88 years old at Enos' birth. This is not impossible, but I find it highly unlikely given Enos's statement in Enos 3:

Behold, I went to hunt beasts in the forests; and the words which I had often heard my father speak concerning eternal life, and the joy of the saints, sunk deep into my heart.

Even if Jacob had lived well into his 90s, Enos would likely have been a young child when orphaned by his father's death. How then would he remember having "often heard" his father speak about "the joy of the saints" -- especially given Jacob's seemingly pessimistic worldview, as he voiced in Jacob 7:26:

...our lives passed away like as it were unto us a dream, we being a lonesome and a solemn people...

No, I don't believe Jacob was in his late 80s when Enos was born. Late 70s is much more believable, even from a biological viewpoint; although it's certainly possible for an 88-year-old to father a child, male fertility does in fact decline with age, so a septuagenarian would be more likely to father a child than would an octogenarian. Moving Jacob's birthyear to no earlier than 595 BC and Enos' birthyear to no later than 515 BC allows for this much more likely scenario, while still allowing Enos to be of reasonable age himself to father a child in his old age.

[Vort]

Our Church is often called the "Mormon Church", named after the Book of Mormon, which is itself named for the prophet who was primarily responsible for compiling and abridging the book. Mormon himself was named for his father; the name ultimately derives from the land of Mormon where Alma, the refugee priest of wicked king Noah, taught and baptized the repentant Nephites from the group that left Zarahemla under Zeniff, Noah's father.

Question: Who named the land "Mormon"?

[Wingnut]

Great question, Vort!

At first, my thought was, "it was already named Mormon when Alma baptized there, and it just was." I looked it up to confirm that and found in Mosiah 18:4 that it was named Mormon by "the king." So, I'm guessing that refers to King Noah. So we're called Mormons because a really wicked king who lived in 147 B.C. named a patch of land "Mormon."

[Vort]

Great question, Vort!

At first, my thought was, "it was already named Mormon when Alma baptized there, and it just was." I looked it up to confirm that and found in Mosiah 18:4 that it was named Mormon by "the king." So, I'm guessing that refers to King Noah. So we're called Mormons because a really wicked king who lived in 147 B.C. named a patch of land "Mormon."

That is my interpretation, as well, though I suppose "the king" need not have referred to Noah, and might instead have referred to his father Zeniff, or perhaps even the Lamanite king. (Though that last one seems a whole lot less likely.)

Just thought it was funny that we're likely called Mormons based ultimately on what a wicked king called a small patch of land 2200 years ago.

[Vort]

Not Book of Mormon trivia, but here goes...

We think of Satan as a male being originally named "Lucifer", but now called "Perdition". Are there modern scriptures that can shed new light on Satan's sex and name?

(Hint: Don't think too hard. )

[Vort]

D&C 52:14 "Satan is abroad in the land..."

To support this surprising declaration, consider Moses' words to Satan in Moses 1:14

"Is it not so, surely?"

Satan is a woman named Shirley.

Now I have to go back and delete these last two posts from this otherwise enlightening thread.

[Vort]

What color do you imagine Mormon's and Moroni's skin to have been, and why?

[RipplecutBuddha]

Purple...

Just a funny mental image, really....

[Vort]

Since all believers apparently lived as a group after Christ's appearance, I have assumed that the nearly two centuries that followed involved a lot of cross-racial marrying, since race, historically always important to the Nephites, would have been deemed meaningless. And since the light-skinned Nephites were always a minority of the overall population, I assume that such interracial marrying probably largely did away with lighter-colored skin*. Thus, I envision Mormon and Moroni as looking much more like American Indians than like northern Europeans, as we see in many paintings.

* I also suspect that the Nephites never had the northern European light skin. That, combined with laboring in the tropical sun (as I suspect a tropical location for the Book of Mormon), would have made the Nephites dark-skinned as compared with the English or their descendants, though apparently noticeably lighter than the Lamanites.

Along this line, I note that lighter skin tone is still highly valued among Latinos and American blacks. Very fair skin used to be prized among the English and other Europeans, as well, though apparently not so much today. This preference for fairer skin might explain the very existence of white Europeans as well as lighter-skinned Asians, since there is no other obvious survival advantage to having light-colored skin.

[Vort]

I think we often don't realize that the Nephites under Limhi were in servitude to the Lamanites for a full generation. Under Alma, they fared better since they were free for at least the first four or five years after leaving Noah's kingship. But even then, after Amulon's kidnapping of the Lamanite daughters, they also spent somewhere around 20 years in bondage -- though of course their bondage was attended by miraculous interventions.

Next question on this: Why were the people under Alma brought into bondage at all? Weren't they righteous and serving the Lord as best they knew? Mosiah 23:21 says simply, "Nevertheless the Lord seeth fit to chasten his people; yea, he trieth their patience and their faith." But I am thinking of a very specific reason why the people under Alma had to have been brought into bondage, despite their righteousness.

Okay. We have established that the main group of southern Nephites under Limhi were in bondage for a full generation. We have also established that the other southern Nephite group under Alma were brought into bondage in fulfillment of the prophecy made in light of their unrepentant state after Abinadi's first mission to them.

Next question:

How long did the people under Alma live as a free people in the land of Nephi, and how long did they spend in bondage under Amlici?

Bonus follow-up: What lessons do you draw in contrasting the Nephites under Alma and those under Limhi?

[Vort]

Any takers?

BONUS BONUS QUESTION: Without looking, do you remember the name Alma and his people gave to their land and city in the land of Nephi?

[Vort]

Okay. We have established that the main group of southern Nephites under Limhi were in bondage for a full generation. We have also established that the other southern Nephite group under Alma were brought into bondage in fulfillment of the prophecy made in light of their unrepentant state after Abinadi's first mission to them.

Next question:

How long did the people under Alma live as a free people in the land of Nephi, and how long did they spend in bondage under Amlici?

Bonus follow-up: What lessons do you draw in contrasting the Nephites under Alma and those under Limhi?

No takers, I guess.

Alma and his followers lived as free people for around twenty years, perhaps a bit more. That's TWO DECADES of freedom and peace, almost a full generation! And when they WERE brought into slavery, as they had to be, they were only in that state for a year or two.

I draw from this contrast the useful lesson that, even if we are forced (or called, or condemned) to go through hard trials, our actions and our hearts can make that a 25-year horror show or a 20-year blessing and a relatively painless trial that is over quickly.