Vort Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Hmmm, that never occurred to me. Probably because i always assumed Aaron was the oldest because he is the one the people want to be the next king. Do we know for certain that Ammon was the oldest?You are probably right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connie Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 You are probably right.Wow, i'm just a teeny bit disappointed. Me thinks you gave up way too easily. Actually, one can make a very compelling argument that you are right, Vort. When the names are listed, Ammon is always first. One could argue that when groups of sons are listed in the Book of Mormon they always go in order, oldest to youngest. This is certainly the case when Lehi's sons are listed and seems to be the case with other sons such as those of Alma the Younger and Helaman. So it would not make sense to have Mosiah's sons be the only group that doesn't go in order. Also, in Alma 17:18, Ammon is described as "chief among them" and administers to the others.So there, Vort. You are right.Though it still is interesting that when asked by King Mosiah, the people wish Aaron to be their king. Oh well, i suppose they weren't obligated to chose the elder son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipplecutBuddha Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 How about this one... What letters are never used to begin a proper name in the Book of Mormon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Thanks, Connie. You're sweet. I still think you're right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 What letters are never used to begin a proper name in the Book of Mormon? Hah! I know that one. All the letters in the Cyrillic, Reformed Egyptian, Adamic and Greek alphabets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 How about this one...What letters are never used to begin a proper name in the Book of Mormon?Let's see:A: Abish, and about ten thousand moreB: Brother of Jared :) or BenjaminC: CoriantumrD: ??? David is mentioned as a historical figure, but I can't think of any Book of Mormon-used names starting with D.E: EnosF: ??? Can't think of anyG: GiddianhiH: HelamanI: IsabelJ: JaromK: KorihorL: LamanM: MormonN: NephiO: OrihahP: PahoranQ: Queen :) Can't think of any othersR: RiplakishS: SariahT: TeomnerU, V, W, X, Y: Can't think of anyZ: ZenosSo D (not including the non-Book of Mormon king David), F, Q, U, V, W, X, and Y are letters I can't find any Book of Mormon names for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Pam mentioned Alma.Starting with the first Alma, the lineage is as follows:Alma: priest of wicked king Noah; repented at the preaching of Abinadi (Ab'n Adi, son of Adi), founded a church, led the righteous remnant back to the Nephites, established the Church there.Alma (Mosiah 27:8): Wicked and idolatrous man who, unlike almost everyone else in recorded history, actually repented when confronted by an angelic messenger. Desired to preach the gospel as an angel (Alma 29), and quite possibly was granted his wish (Alma 45:18-19). The book of Alma is named for this man.Helaman (Alma 31:7): Led a group of Lamanite young men, sons of those Lamanites converted by his father.Helaman (Alma 63:11): Received the Nephite record from his uncle Shiblon and published it widely among the Nephites. Became chief judge at the murder of Pahoran's sons, Pahoran and Pacumeni. The book of Helaman is named for this man.Nephi (Helaman 3:21): With his brother Lehi, called the Nephites to repentence, then went among the Lamanites, receiving miraculous protection. Prophesied the murder of Seezoram and the culpability of Seantum. Called down the powers of heaven to inflict a massive drought on the people, stopping a war and causing them to die like flies. Definitely someone better to have as a friend than an enemy. Wandered off and was never seen again...Nephi (3 Nephi 1:2): Led the Nephite Church through the dark period of civil unrest when the people, under the able judgeship of Lachoneus, were subject to attack by Gadianton robbers, and later when the government completely dissolved. Became one of the twelve Nephite "disciples", functioning as virtual apostles to the Nephites. Was taken into the presence of the Lord immediately upon his death, or else was granted a state of "translation" in order to live perpetually among the peoples until Christ's return. (Given the missionary bent of his ancestry, my money is on the latter possibility.) The books of 3 and 4 Nephi are named for this man.So three of the sets are Alma, Helaman, and Nephi. The fourth is actually Mormon himself (Mormon 1:5).Name some other Book of Mormon father/son pairs with the same name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misshalfway Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Thanks, Connie. You're sweet.I still think you're right.Wait...Vort called someone sweet and acknowledged they were right IN THE SAME POST??woah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Wait...Vort called someone sweet and acknowledged they were right IN THE SAME POST?? Its the Avatar! It has changed Vort rather than changing everyone else's perception.Up with Avatars!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Let's see:A: Abish, and about ten thousand moreB: Brother of Jared :) or BenjaminC: CoriantumrD: ??? David is mentioned as a historical figure, but I can't think of any Book of Mormon-used names starting with D.E: EnosF: ??? Can't think of anyG: GiddianhiH: HelamanI: IsabelJ: JaromK: KorihorL: LamanM: MormonN: NephiO: OrihahP: PahoranQ: Queen :) Can't think of any othersR: RiplakishS: SariahT: TeomnerU, V, W, X, Y: Can't think of anyZ: ZenosSo D (not including the non-Book of Mormon king David), F, Q, U, V, W, X, and Y are letters I can't find any Book of Mormon names for.RipplecutBuddah,How did I do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Name some other Book of Mormon father/son pairs with the same name.What, no one's playing any more?I can think of two others besides those I mentioned before: Pahoran, whose son Pahoran took over the judgment seat in his place (briefly, before being murdered), and Lachoneus, whose son Lachoneus took over the judgment seat in his place (briefly, before being murdered).So that makes six: Alma, Helaman, Nephi, Pahoran, Lachoneus, and Mormon. Any others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I'm still going with King Lamoni and King Lamoni's father. I claim that as a legitimate match, since the only name we ever know for King Lamoni's father is, in fact, King Lamoni's father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Can you put a lower limit on the number of daughters Lehi had? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Two.Second part: Can you give your scriptural reasoning for this? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Two reasons: 1) Lehi's daughter's are referred to in the plural, ergo, at least two of them. 2) Ishmael had 2 sons, and though I'm not sure it directly says that they married the daughters of Lehi, we know that Zoram and the sons of Lehi took Ishmael's daughters to wife, so it would follow that Ishmael's sons took Lehi's daughters to wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Two reasons:1) Lehi's daughter's are referred to in the plural, ergo, at least two of them.2) Ishmael had 2 sons, and though I'm not sure it directly says that they married the daughters of Lehi, we know that Zoram and the sons of Lehi took Ishmael's daughters to wife, so it would follow that Ishmael's sons took Lehi's daughters to wife.I like your reasoning, but I don't agree with #2. 2 Nephi 5:6 details how Nephi left his brothers and their families:Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam, mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and Joseph, my younger brethren, and also my sisters, and all those who would go with me.The only sisters he would have taken would have been (a) those married to sons of Ishmael who followed him, and who would probably have been identified as such, and (b) unmarried sisters that were still his responsibility as the leader of his father's household.Interestingly, I am not sure that #1 means what we think. Ancient Hebrew included a dual number in addition to singular and plural. If the term "sisters" was dual, then that would mean "both of them", limiting the number to two. But if it was in the regular plural, that would suggest at least three. There is no way to know, of course, so "two" is the correct answer. But it's interesting to note (at least I find it interesting) that the term may well have suggested three or more rather than two or more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 That is interesting. Of course, I didn't look anything up along the timeline to verify, so I was just going off memory. As such, I agree with your head of household thing with Nephi taking his sisters with him. If it was the ones married to the sons of Ishmael, he'd probably have said "and the sons of Ishmael, and their wives." So might this imply then that there are at least four -- two married to the sons of Ishmael, and at least two that went with Nephi? (Setting aside language nuances, of course.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 That is interesting. Of course, I didn't look anything up along the timeline to verify, so I was just going off memory. As such, I agree with your head of household thing with Nephi taking his sisters with him. If it was the ones married to the sons of Ishmael, he'd probably have said "and the sons of Ishmael, and their wives." So might this imply then that there are at least four -- two married to the sons of Ishmael, and at least two that went with Nephi? (Setting aside language nuances, of course.)I have always thought of Ishmael's oldest sons as being already married at the time Ishmael left Jerusalem with them, ostensibly to women unrelated to Lehi. But even if they were married beforehand, maybe they were married to Lehi's unnamed, unmentioned (at least on the Small Plates) oldest daughters. Maybe that's why Lehi directed his sons to invite Ishmael. Maybe, maybe, maybe. In any case, as you point out, I think we can confidently assert that Lehi had at least two daughters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Lehi may also have directed his sons to invite Lehi so that his sons would have someone to marry. That they did is explicitly laid out. I always found it interesting that Laman and Lemuel whine and complain and moan and groan when they have to go back to get the plates, but when they're sent back to get the girls, they don't say a peep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 How long was it between king Noah's fleeing/execution and the return of the Nephites (both under Limhi and under Alma) to the main group at Zarahemla? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Anyone still playing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Yep..just as soon as I get back from the hospital seeing my new nephew born yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Congrats! And speaking of nephews... Approximately how old was Jacob when his son (and Nephi's nephew) Enos was born? Roughly, not to the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 So Vort..are we working on the question a couple posts back or your most recent? Or both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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