Book of Mormon quiz!

[Vort]

The fun "Book of Mormon trivia" thread in the General forum inspired me to make up this quiz. How far can you get? (Open disclosure: Even though I wrote the quiz, I can only answer through 1Q70.)

Sunbeam level: Nephi was the first prophet who wrote in the Book of Mormon. Who was Nephi's daddy?

CTR level: Who was Nephi's mama?

Valiant level: Name Nephi's three older brothers.

Beehives/Deacons level: Name the most famous captain in Nephite military history.

MIA Maids/Teachers level: How long did the darkness last that covered the Nephites after the destructions that took place at Jesus' crucifixion?

Laurels/Priests level: Name the mountain moved by the brother of Jared.

RS/Elders level: Who was the last person to write on the Small Plates of Nephi?

Special High Priest question: Name at least five instances when Lehi's descendants fell unconscious in response to divine interactions or miracles. Extra 10 minutes of nap time given during high priest group meeting for naming eight or more instances.

Patriarchs level: Name the three sons of Alma the younger.

Third Quorum of Seventy level: Tell within ten years how long the Nephites' reign of judges lasted.

Second Quorum of Seventy level: How many times, and in what contexts, is the word "snow" mentioned in the Book of Mormon?

First Quorum of Seventy level: Tell how many chapters are in each book of the Book of Mormon (from memory).

Quorum of Twelve level: The twelve Nephite disciples functioned as virtual apostles to the Nephite people. Name them (from memory).

First Presidency level: In how many verses is Jesus Christ mentioned, by name or by reference, in the Book of Mormon?

EXTRA BONUS QUESTION (inspired by Moksha): Where in the Book of Mormon is Zelph mentioned?

[pam]

Oh great..I look at these questions and I have to say..it's like Who's smarter than a 5th grade. Looks like I might not be smarter than...okay I just can't say it.

[skippy740]

Is this an "open-book" quiz? :)

[Wingnut]

1) Lehi

2) Sariah

3) Lemuel, Laman, Sam

4) subjective question, either Helaman or Moroni

5) three days

6) Zerin (I only know that off the top of my head from having read Pam's correct answer to it earlier)

7) Amaleki (Omni 1:30 -- I had to look it up, but I get credit for knowing right where to look, right?)

8) King Lamoni & King Lamoni's kingdom; Alma the Younger;

9) Corianton, Shiblon,

10) 92

11) According to the Index, only once -- 1 Nephi 11:8, which says that the whiteness of the tree exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.

12) 1 Nephi (22); 2 Nephi (33); Jacob (7); Enos, Jarom, Omni, Words of Mormon (1); Mosiah (29); Alma (64); Helaman (15); 3 Nephi (27); 4 Nephi (1); Mormon (9); Ether (12); Moroni (10)

13) Timothy, Nephi, Mathias (Matthias?)

14)

15) Zelph is first mentioned in the History of the Church, I believe.

[Vort]

Is this an "open-book" quiz? :)

Yes, but only after you've taken the quiz "for credit". :)

[Vort]

4) subjective question, either Helaman or Moroni

Subjective? Yes, but since Mormon gives Moroni all the press, I think he's the clear winner. Actually, if there is any competition to Moroni for "greatest Nephite general", I'd say that honor would probably go to Mormon himself.

7) Amaleki (Omni 1:30 -- I had to look it up, but I get credit for knowing right where to look, right?)

Hmmm...I'd say it starts with a "ch" and ends with an "er" and rhymes with "CHEATER!!" But of course, I would never say such a thing...:)

8) King Lamoni & King Lamoni's kingdom; Alma the Younger;

That's three (if by "Lamoni's kingdom" you mean his household, including Amulek). But this one is specially formulated for the sleepy high priests among us; the rest of us need not answer if we don't want to. :)

9) Corianton, Shiblon,

Ooh, so close, just missing one...

10) 92

Good guess, but sorry. The judges began to reign about 91 or 92 BC, and that reign continued until the Nephite government was destroyed in about AD 30. So the answer is around 121 years.

11) According to the Index, only once -- 1 Nephi 11:8, which says that the whiteness of the tree exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.

The index? The INDEX?!

Pshaw.

12) 1 Nephi (22); 2 Nephi (33); Jacob (7); Enos, Jarom, Omni, Words of Mormon (1); Mosiah (29); Alma (64); Helaman (15); 3 Nephi (27); 4 Nephi (1); Mormon (9); Ether (12); Moroni (10)

Very good guesses. Alma has only 63 chapters, Helaman has 16, 3 Nephi has 30, and Ether has 15. Other than that, you're spot on.

13) Timothy, Nephi, Mathias (Matthias?)

I can't answer this without looking it up.

14)

Yes, that's my answer, too.

15) Zelph is first mentioned in the History of the Church, I believe.

So the correct answer is: Nowhere.

[Justice]

7) Amaleki (Omni 1:30 -- I had to look it up, but I get credit for knowing right where to look, right?)

Unfortunately you don't get credit even for looking it up.

Technically, Mormon wrote the Words of Mormon on the Small Plates of Nephi before he gave his abridgement to Moroni.

So, the answer to the question as asked should be Mormon.

Kind of a trick question, I'd say.

Not sure how far I'll get, but I made it this far!

:)

[Vort]

Unfortunately you don't get credit even for looking it up.

Technically, Mormon wrote the Words of Mormon on the Small Plates of Nephi before he gave his abridgement to Moroni.

So, the answer to the question as asked should be Mormon.

Kind of a trick question, I'd say.

Not sure how far I'll get, but I made it this far!

:)

Not sure how you arrived at this conclusion, but it appears to be counterfactual. On the contrary, one of two things appears to be the case:

• Mormon transcribed the small plates verbatim into his abridgment.
• Mormon physically inserted the small plates into his abridgment, then continued with the effort.

Personally, I vote for #2. But in either case, Mormon didn't write on the Small Plates, which Amaleki makes clear "were full" (Omni 30).

[Wingnut]

Not sure how you arrived at this conclusion, but it appears to be counterfactual. On the contrary, one of two things appears to be the case:

• Mormon transcribed the small plates verbatim into his abridgment.
• Mormon physically inserted the small plates into his abridgment, then continued with the effort.

Personally, I vote for #2. But in either case, Mormon didn't write on the Small Plates, which Amaleki makes clear "were full" (Omni 30).

Justice's case could be made by reading Words of Mormon 1:3:

And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.

The "these" and the "this" imply that it could be the Small Plates on which Mormon is writing at the time, however, I was going with what you mentioned, that is, that Amaleki stated that the plates were full.

[Vort]

Justice's case could be made by reading Words of Mormon 1:3:

And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.

The "these" and the "this" imply that it could be the Small Plates on which Mormon is writing at the time

Only if you understand the antecedent to "these" and "this" to be "the set of plates upon which I am presently writing" -- and even then, if he were transcribing the Small Plates into his abridgment, that still would not indicate him writing on the Small Plates themselves. I think a far more natural understanding of the antecedent is "the account that you have just finished reading, starting with where my abridgment left off after the Book of Lehi."

[Justice]

He did say they were full, but Mormon found some room somehwere...

Let's look at Words of Mormon, which is chronologically after Amaleki.

1 And now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I have been making into the hands of my son Moroni, behold I have witnessed almost all the destruction of my people, the Nephites.

Mormon is basically finished with the "records he has been making," or his abridgement, and is about to deliver it up to his son. His abridement was take entirely from the Large Plates of Nephi.

2 And it is many hundred years after the coming of Christ *that I deliver these records into the hands of my son; and it supposeth me that he will witness the entire destruction of my people. But may God grant that he may survive them, that he may write somewhat concerning them, and somewhat concerning Christ, that perhaps some day it may profit them.

Now, to the meat...

3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake,

OK, let's pause. Mormon has a completed abridgement (near completed) that he is about to hand to Moroni. He abridged from the start of the Large Plates (Book of Lehi?) down to the end of 4th Nephi. So, when he says "after I made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin," he doesn't mean right after, or before he abridged the rest, because at this point he is done.

He means, "I already made an abridgment of Lehi through King Benjamin." Then he goes on to say that he found the Small Plates of Nephi AFTER he made his abridment and was about to give it to Moroni.

I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.

"These plates" meaning what plates? The Small Plates of Nephi... the plates he was then writing in. Notice he didn't tack it on to the end of his book on the abridgment... if he did it would be in Book of Mormon right before Ether.

4 And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass—

It's not surprising he liked them better than what was written on the Large Plates that covered the same time period. Nephi said he wrote the more spiritual matters on the Smal Plates. Clearly, when Mormon found them he preferred them over his abridgment of the Large Plates.

5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them

Mormon chose "these" things or plates to finish his record upon them.

which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the dhundredth part of the things of my people.

After he finishes his writing on the Small Plates he will put the rest of his abridgment of the Large Plates, covering the time frame that is not covered on the Small Plates, which strats at King Benjamin.

6 But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record

Again, just for clarity, he describes what he is doing. He is going to take the Small Plates, which he is currently writing in, and put them with the rest of his abridgment of the Large Plates.

, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren.

They are choice (the Small Plates) because they were more spiritual.

7 And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will.

What was the wise purpose of the Lord that Mormon didn't know?

Easy, by removing his abridgment of the Large Plates from Nephi thru King Benjamin, and inserting these Small Plates instead... look what happened...

On the Large Plates Nephi made a Book of Lehi, which was an abridgment or compilation of Lehi's writings. So, Nephi did not include the things of his father on the Large Plates, because he made a Book of Lehi.

But, on the small plates, there was no Book of Lehi, they began with Nephi. So, Nephi included some of the things of his father on the Small Plates in his own book.

Had Mormon not made this switch, then when the 116 pages of manuscript (Book of Lehi) was lost, it would have been lost for good, since they were not to retranslate. But, since Mormon did remove the abridgment of the Large Plates from Nephi to King Benjamin, he inserted Nephi's writings that included Lehi's teachings and vision of the tree of life.

I posted on this before but no one seems to want to just read what Mormon wrote. It's plain as day.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

Only if you understand the antecedent to "these" and "this" to be "the set of plates upon which I am presently writing" -- and even then, if he were transcribing the Small Plates into his abridgment, that still would not indicate him writing on the Small Plates themselves. I think a far more natural understanding of the antecedent is "the account that you have just finished reading, starting with where my abridgment left off after the Book of Lehi."

You don't have to "understand it that way" he tells you he meant it that way.

Read verse 6.

I think you need to really read Words of Mormon for the first time. :)

[Moksha]

CTR level: Who was Nephi's Mama?

Mrs. Lehi. Too sacred to have a first name!

Second Quorum of Seventy level: How many times, and in what contexts, is the word "snow" mentioned in the Book of Mormon?

The most obvious instance was in the foretelling of the LDS.Net poster by the same name.

EXTRA BONUS QUESTION (inspired by Moksha): Where in the Book of Mormon is Zelph mentioned?

Must not forget the Melamine Plates.

Seer Level Question For Vort (and others): Name the location of the last spotting of the Three Nephites.

:)

Edited November 6, 2009 by Moksha

[Justice]

And, Vort, don't feel like you have to agree, that's not my agenda. In fact, I watched a show on BYU TV where professors at BYU were commenting on Words of Mormon, and the consensus seemed to agree with you.

However, I think Mormon made himself very clear. Verse 6 was the clincher for me... like he restated it again so he would be clear.

Sometimes we get this idea in our mind and it's very hard to get it out.

In fact.. those professors think the lost 116 pages included from Lehi to king Benjamin (which is the only way their view would make sense). I see no logic or evidence of this, especially based on what Mormon says in Words of Mormon. But, they apparently got that view somewhere.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Justice

[Vort]

He did say they were full, but Mormon found some room somehwere...

Your gloss is not very well supported, Justice.

Let's look at Words of Mormon, which is chronologically after Amaleki.

It's chronologically after almost everything until the Book of Moroni, save a few chapters in Mormon.

1 And now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I have been making into the hands of my son Moroni, behold I have witnessed almost all the destruction of my people, the Nephites.

Mormon is basically finished with the "records he has been making," or his abridgement, and is about to deliver it up to his son. His abridement was take entirely from the Large Plates of Nephi.

Until now, yes.

2 And it is many hundred years after the coming of Christ *that I deliver these records into the hands of my son; and it supposeth me that he will witness the entire destruction of my people. But may God grant that he may survive them, that he may write somewhat concerning them, and somewhat concerning Christ, that perhaps some day it may profit them.

Now, to the meat...

3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake,

OK, let's pause. Mormon has a completed abridgement (near completed) that he is about to hand to Moroni. He abridged from the start of the Large Plates (Book of Lehi?) down to the end of 4th Nephi. So, when he says "after I made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin," he doesn't mean right after, or before he abridged the rest, because at this point he is done.

He means, "I already made an abridgment of Lehi through King Benjamin." Then he goes on to say that he found the Small Plates of Nephi AFTER he made his abridment and was about to give it to Moroni.

Two points:

• He means precisely what he said: After he had abridged from Lehi until Benjamin, he went looking for the Small Plates.
• He did not "happen upon" the Small Plates; he went looking for them, because he knew they existed. Either he had read them before, or else he knew about them, probably from their being mentioned by Nephi in his Large Plates.

I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.

Please note: He searched among the records to find the Small Plates. Apparently, he knew what he was looking for.

"These plates" meaning what plates? The Small Plates of Nephi... the plates he was then writing in.

No, Justice. Not the plates he was writing in; the plates he was talking about.

Notice he didn't tack it on to the end of his book on the abridgment... if he did it would be in Book of Mormon right before Ether.

Of course he did not tack them on the end. He was abridging the plates chronologically, so after reaching the reign of Benjamin, he searched until he found this account (the Small Plates), and then transcribed (or else physically placed) them in his abridgment.

4 And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass—

It's not surprising he liked them better than what was written on the Large Plates that covered the same time period. Nephi said he wrote the more spiritual matters on the Smal Plates. Clearly, when Mormon found them he preferred them over his abridgment of the Large Plates.

No, that's not clear at all. Rather, what is clear is that he felt the Small Plates should be included, in their entirety, in his abridged compilation. There is no sense of preference.

5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them

Mormon chose "these" things or plates to finish his record upon them.

Yes. That is, he finishes his record of the early Nephite history, up until the Nephites left the land of Nephi under Mosiah (I) and joined with the Mulekites, with Nephi's record of the Small Plates.

which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the dhundredth part of the things of my people.

After he finishes his writing on the Small Plates

You are reading that into Mormon's words. He says nothing about writing on the Small Plates.

6 But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record

Again, just for clarity, he describes what he is doing. He is going to take the Small Plates, which he is currently writing in, and put them with the rest of his abridgment of the Large Plates.

The bolded portion above is wrong. There is no indication that he is writing on the Small Plates. It just is not there.

This part you have quoted is why I personally believe Mormon physically inserted the Small Plates into his abridgment rather than transcribing them. But reading it as a transcription is, I think, a reasonable reading of the text. Reading it as Mormon writing on the Small Plates is a strained and unlikely reading, in my view.

I posted on this before but no one seems to want to just read what Mormon wrote. It's plain as day.

Justice, many generations of faithful Latter-day Saints have read and understood these things. We are not the first.

[Vort]

I think you need to really read Words of Mormon for the first time. :)

You may well be right about my needing "to really read Words of Mormon for the first time", Justice. But your condescension in attempting to show me the truth does not leave me feeling very convinced. Until the Spirit or someone else can show me a better reading that I have already made, I'll just stick with my own exegesis.

[Vort]

And, Vort, don't feel like you have to agree

Don't worry. :)

[Vort]

In fact.. those professors think the lost 116 pages included from Lehi to king Benjamin (which is the only way their view would make sense). I see no logic or evidence of this, especially based on what Mormon says in Words of Mormon. But, they apparently got that view somewhere.

I do not understand your confusion on this point.

Do you not agree that the lost 116 pages of manuscript were Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Mormon narrative preceding Benjamin?

W of M 3: "...after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake..."

This makes a few things clear:

• Mormon was making his abridgment before inserting the Small Plates.
• This abridgment was taken from Nephi's "plates", i.e. the Large Plates.
• The abridgment he had made covered the period of time up until king Benjamin.

So if you don't think a translation that was called "the book of Lehi" and that explicitly covered a period up to the time of king Benjamin was in fact a history "included from Lehi to king Benjamin" -- that is, if you "see no logic or evidence of this" -- then I fear our reading of the source material is so widely divergent that conversation will be difficult if not impossible.

[Justice]

Vort, Mormon was about to hand Moroni his completed abridgment. All he had left to do was "add a few more words."

Note Mormon 6 (which is chronologically before Words of Mormon):

...I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Notice he is going to hide the records. If he still needed to abridge King Benjamin through Nephi 4, why would he bury them?

He is speaking in past tense as if he had already given his abridgment to Moroni, but we know he hadn't because he was still writing in it! THEN he wrote Words of Mormon AFTER he found the Small Plates of Nephi. You have to keep in mind that he was writing about what he thought he was going to do, as if he had already done it. Keep that im mind when you interpret Words of Mormon and exactly when he found the Small Plates.

Vort, I know you just don't see it yet, and I didn't for a LONG time, but Mormon is done.

Words of Mormon verse 10:

10 Wherefore, it came to pass that after Amaleki had delivered up these plates into the hands of king Benjamin, he took them and put them with the other plates, which contained records which had been handed down by the kings, from generation to generation until the days of king Benjamin.

Vort, Mormon is finishing his record on the Small Plates. I really don't know how you, or others, cannot see it. If nothing else, just look at where it appears in the text! His last words are NOT at the end of his abridgment, but at the end of the Small Plates!

Anyway, my main point was to tell you what I believe to respond to your posts number 8 and 10. So, I just wanted to let you know that these words can be interpreted differently.

I believe if anyone with an open mind studies these words they will see what Mormon is trying to say.

I apologize for being condescending. It wasn't my intention. It was just a sarcastic remark meant in fun. I should have added a smiley. I thought by adding that BYU professors believe the way you do you would see I was kidding.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

Do you not agree that the lost 116 pages of manuscript were Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Mormon narrative preceding Benjamin?

I already mentioned to you that I read it the way you do for years and years. I understand how you interpret the writing.

But, the fact is, when I realized Mormon was FINISHED with his abridgment and was about to bury the plates and give Moroni his abridgment, I had to interpret the words differently.

Also, Joseph Smith is on record as saying the 116 pages of lost manuscript was "The Book of Lehi." I find it highly illogical and against the pattern set in the rest of the abridgment of the Large Plates for all of Nephi, Jacob, and all the way down to King Benjamin's writings to be included in a book titled something other than their own name. The next several writers after Nephi all made their own books, even if was just a small chapter. It seems to be a pattern among them.

Another reason is because the abridged books in the Large Plates that we have are all fairly large (some easily 116 written pages or more) and they bear the life stories of the person who the book is named after (Mosiah, Alma, Helaman, Nephi...). Nephi stated he wrote the "more part" of the history on the other (Large) plates. It seems 116 hand written pages wouldn't be near enough to cover Lehi through King Benjamin.

I've given this much study, thought, and prayer over years and years. You will not see it until you realize that Mormon was finished with his abridgment BEFORE he began writing Words of Mormon. He even says he was.

Anyway, good quiz. I still believe Mormon was the last prophet to write on the Small Plates.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Justice

[Vort]

Vort, Mormon was about to hand Moroni his completed abridgment. All he had left to do was "add a few more words."

Nore Mormon 6 (which is chronologically before Words of Mormon):

...I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Justice, what is the antecedent of "these few plates"?

Answer: The plates that constitute the Book of Mormon, not merely the Small Plates of Nephi.

This is clear in context. Mormon repeatedly emphasizes that, in his abridgment, he cannot cover even a significant fraction ("a hundredth part") of the record of the Nephites. His abridgment is the barest sampling of the extensive history kept by the Nephite kings and prophets -- few plates, indeed, compared with the massive amount of Nephite history kept by the kings and the prophets.

In this matter, it is worthwhile to note that Brigham Young testified that Oliver Cowdery told him that, when he finished with the translation, Joseph returned the gold plates to a cave in the hill Cumorah that contained, among other things, "many wagon loads" of plates. By comparison, the record of the Book of Mormon, no larger than a small pillow and no heavier than fifty pounds, represented few plates, indeed.

Notice he is going to hide the records. If he still needed to abridge King Benjamin through Nephi 4, why would he bury them?

You are getting hung up on an inconsequential point, Justice. Perhaps you are correct and Mormon has, in fact, completed his abridgement, and he's now handing the plates off to Moroni. I think that's probably a misreading of things, but it's certainly possible.

So what? It says nothing about whether Mormon was actually inscribing letters on the Small Plates. He was not; that much is perfectly clear from all that has been said before. Mormon is handing off "these few plates" -- that is to say, what we call "the golden plates" from which the Book of Mormon was translated -- to his son. Those "few plates" doubtless included the Small Plates, or at least a transcript of them, but it included the rest of Mormon's redaction as well, and apparently included some blanks for Moroni to give a synopsis of Ether's record and some final words. (Note that these "few plates" also contained plates that were sealed to Joseph Smith, and that apparently constituted fully two-thirds of the plates, so that our Book of Mormon is probably only about a third of the actual content of the gold plates -- and that third is including the lost Book of Lehi.)

Vort, I know you just don't see it yet, and I didn't for a LONG time, but Mormon is done.

My friend, this is condescension. You may not mean it as such, but so it is. Perhaps the reason I don't see it is because it is not there to be seen.

Words of Mormon verse 10:

10 Wherefore, it came to pass that after Amaleki had delivered up these plates into the hands of king Benjamin, he took them and put them with the other plates, which contained records which had been handed down by the kings, from generation to generation until the days of king Benjamin.

Vort, Mormon is finishing his record on the Small Plates. I really don't know how you, or others, cannot see it.

Because it is not there. Mormon is very clearly not "finishing his record on the Small Plates." I believe you have misread what is written here.

Anyway, my main point was to tell you what I believe to respond to your posts number 8 and 10. So, I just wanted to let you know that these words can be interpreted differently.

Fair enough, they can. I don't know which ones 8 and 10 are, but I'll go look them up and count to figure it out.

I believe if anyone with an open mind studies these words they will see what Mormon is trying to say.

That is, they will agree with you. Right?

Justice, do you truly not see the problematic attitude in saying, "I am sure that any intelligent, honest, open-minded person will agree with me"?

I apologize for being condescending. It wasn't my intention. It was just a sarcastic remark meant in fun. I should have added a smiley.

It was certainly not a lack of smileys, Justice. It was the whole attitude that anyone intelligent and insightful enough would naturally agree with your point of view. I have my opinions, some of them quite firm, but I acknowledge that informed and intelligent parties might disagree with my exegeses, timelines, and historical interpretations.

I thought by adding that BYU professors believe the way you do you would see I was kidding.

Huh? Why would talking about BYU profs agreeing with me tip me off that you're only joking?

Edited November 7, 2009 by Vort

[Vort]

#8 Special High Priest question: Name at least five instances when Lehi's descendants fell unconscious in response to divine interactions or miracles. Extra 10 minutes of nap time given during high priest group meeting for naming eight or more instances.

#10 Third Quorum of Seventy level: Tell within ten years how long the Nephites' reign of judges lasted.

Sorry, Justice, I'm not seeing how your arguments deal with these.

[Vort]

I already mentioned to you that I read it the way you do for years and years. I understand how you interpret the writing.

But, the fact is, when I realized Mormon was FINISHED with his abridgment and was about to bury the plates and give Moroni his abridgment, I had to interpret the words differently.

So then, you have adjusted your understanding of the words to fit your newly-conceived notion.

That does not convince me that your new idea is correct.

Also, Joseph Smith is on record as saying the 116 pages of lost manuscript was "The Book of Lehi." I find it highly illogical and against the pattern set in the rest of the abridgment of the Large Plates for all of Nephi, Jacob, and all the way down to King Benjamin's writings to be included in a book titled something other than their own name.

Why? It's not "illogical" at all. The book of Alma contains a lot more information than only about Alma II, as do, resepctively, the books of Helaman, 3 Nephi, and 4 Nephi.

It would appear that Nephite history ("the Large Plates") were kept in separate and sequential books named for the book's originator or, perhaps, most important prophet. It would make perfect sense that Nephi, in making the first of these books, would call it by his father's name.

Seriously, please explain what is "illogical" about that. It seems perfectly reasonable to me, and I must confess that I don't see how "logic" enters into the discussion at all.

The next several writers after Nephi all made their own books, even if was just a small chapter. It seems to be a pattern among them.

That was the Small Plates, kept by Jacob and his descendants. The pattern of the Large Plates, as possibly reflected in the rest of the Book of Mormon, appears to be much different. In any case, the book of Omni defies your argument and supports the other interpretation, since Omni was responsible for only a small part of that book.

Another reason is because the abridged books in the Large Plates that we have are all fairly large (some easily 116 written pages or more) and they bear the life stories of the person who the book is named after (Mosiah, Alma, Helaman, Nephi...).

Doubtless the book of Lehi bore the history of Lehi's life, as well.

By the way, your assertion that "some [of our translations of Mormon's redaction of books of the Large Plates are] easily 116 written pages or more" is incorrect. Only the book of Alma approaches this length. The entire printer's manuscript of the Book of Mormon was only 465 pages long, including the testimonies of the witnesses.

Nephi stated he wrote the "more part" of the history on the other (Large) plates. It seems 116 hand written pages wouldn't be near enough to cover Lehi through King Benjamin.

Lehi to king Benjamin constitutes less than 500 years of history. The Small Plates of Nephi, which cover exactly the same period (but include extensive inserts of non-Lehite history such as Isaiah's writings) take pretty much the same number of pages in the printer's manuscript. Given Mormon's uneven adaption of parts of the record into his abridgment, it is completely believable that the Book of Lehi could be written out in 116 pages. (I have not been able to find out if "116 pages" means 116 sheets of paper, or both sides of 58 sheets of paper. If the former, then the Book of Lehi would have been almost double the length of the Small Plates translation, and thus approximately the same length as the rest of the Book of Mormon from Mosiah to Moroni.)

I've given this much study, thought, and prayer over years and years. You will not see it until you realize that Mormon was finished with his abridgment BEFORE he began writing Words of Mormon. He even says he was.

Justice, please don't bear your testimony of the truthfulness of your exegesis. It's not really proper, and frankly it's a bit embarrassing.

Anyway, good quiz. I still believe Mormon was the last prophet to write on the Small Plates.

As is your right. But it's my quiz, so I get to give the answer key. :)

Edited November 7, 2009 by Vort

[Justice]

Justice, what is the antecedent of "these few plates"?

Answer: The plates that constitute the Book of Mormon, not merely the Small Plates of Nephi.

That's not true.

I don't see why it needs to come to this, but I'll show you how he refers to the plates. I'm not going to include his commentary within his abridgment of the Large Plates, just his direct unabridged writings. I will start by showing that Nephi makes the same distinctions, and the other writers of the Small Plates.

1 Nephi 9: 1-5

1 And all these things did my father see, and hear, and speak, as he dwelt in a tent, in the valley of Lemuel, and also a great many more things, which cannot be written upon these plates.

2 And now, as I have spoken concerning these plates, behold they are not the plates upon which I make a full account of the history of my people; for the plates upon which I make a full account of my people I have given the name of Nephi; therefore, they are called the plates of Nephi, after mine own name; and these plates also are called the plates of Nephi.

3 Nevertheless, I have received a commandment of the Lord that I should make these plates, for the special purpose that there should be an account engraven of the ministry of my people.

4 Upon the other plates should be engraven an account of the reign of the kings, and the wars and contentions of my people; wherefore these plates are for the more part of the ministry; and the other plates are for the more part of the reign of the kings and the wars and contentions of my people.

5 Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me to make these plates for a wise purpose in him, which purpose I know not.

1 Nephi 19: 2-5

2 And I knew not at the time when I made them that I should be commanded of the Lord to make these plates; wherefore, the record of my father, and the genealogy of his fathers, and the more part of all our proceedings in the wilderness are engraven upon those first plates of which I have spoken; wherefore, the things which transpired before I made these plates are, of a truth, more particularly made mention upon the first plates.

3 And after I had made these plates by way of commandment, I, Nephi, received a commandment that the ministry and the prophecies, the more plain and precious parts of them, should be written upon these plates; and that the things which were written should be kept for the instruction of my people, who should possess the land, and also for other wise purposes, which purposes are known unto the Lord.

4 Wherefore, I, Nephi, did make a record upon the other plates, which gives an account, or which gives a greater account of the wars and contentions and destructions of my people. And this have I done, and commanded my people what they should do after I was gone; and that these plates should be handed down from one generation to another, or from one prophet to another, until further commandments of the Lord.

5 And an account of my making these plates shall be given hereafter; and then, behold, I proceed according to that which I have spoken; and this I do that the more sacred things may be kept for the knowledge of my people.

Nephi continues throughout his writins to refer to his 2 sets of plates as "these plates" and the "other plates."

The first thing I notice when I read these is what you already mentioned... that the Large Plates contained a LOT of writing. It just doesn't add up that 116 pages of hand written manuscript covers ALL of Lehi's writings, ALL of Nephi's writings, and ALL of the writings of the prophets down to King Benjamin.

For crying out loud, hand write JUST Nephi's writings on the Small Plates! How many pages would you get? There are exactly 116 typed, printed pages of Nephi's writings in our Book of Mormon today, and we know those are Nephi's Small Plates which he wrote MUCH LESS in. That's just NEPHI!

I don't buy that the 116 lost pages were from Lehi to King Benjamin. It was as Joseph Smith said it was, "The Book of Lehi." Mormon removed his abridgment from Nephi to King Benjamin and replaced them with the Small Plates because he preferred them to his abridgment of the same time period.

5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them

He chose the Small Plates because he liked them better and he is going to finish his record UPON THEM!

All of the writers in Omni call the Small Plates "these plates."

I hope I don't need to show any more scriptures for us to agree that Nephi was very consitent in calling "these plates" (Small Plates) the very plates he was writing on, and the "other plates" the plates he was not writing on (Large Plates).

Now, read Mormon 6 and Words of Mormon and watch how consitently Mormon continues the terms that ALL the other writers used.

My friend, this is condescension. You may not mean it as such, but so it is. Perhaps the reason I don't see it is because it is not there to be seen.

I apologize.

Because it is not there. Mormon is very clearly not "finishing his record on the Small Plates." I believe you have misread what is written here.

5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them

Fair enough, they can. I don't know which ones 8 and 10 are, but I'll go look them up and count to figure it out.

I meant your post numbers 8 and 10... not the question numbers.

I am done here. Read and study as much as you like, or as little as you like. We don't have to agree to have good discussions.

Huh? Why would talking about BYU profs agreeing with me tip me off that you're only joking?

C'mon, isn't it funny that I would call BYU professors wrong? I thought it was a bit funny. I realize not many see this, but it has been shown to me by the Spirit. I know it's true and I see Mormon's intentions... something I never saw before.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Justice

[Wingnut]

Uh, guys? This started out as a game.