Lord, is it I?

[Misshalfway]

This church is difficult to leave. But maybe anyone who has been raised in a church or strict cultural tradition would feel that. And ours is particularly different because we often talk about unpleasant consequences of apostasy.

I think to get out of this church, I would have to have the same sorts of experiences that got me into it. Meaning that God would have to lead me out or confirm my decision to leave. The only other circumstance would be if I could determine surely that there was no God in the first place. That knowledge, if there was a way to come to it, would make leaving rather easy if I didn't take into account relationships and familial expectations.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Misshalfway
leaving not living

[Guest Godless]

This church is difficult to leave. But maybe anyone who has been raised in a church or strict cultural tradition would feel that. And ours is particularly different because we often talk about unpleasant consequences of apostasy.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. The doctrine is much easier to part with than the culture for those of us who were raised in it.

[beefche]

I guess that's where I'm different than a lot of ya'll. I think that there are diverse ways to leave the church. And I truly believe that if we let the little things slide that they lead to greater things.

I once remember hearing someone tell me that people who leave the church typically have stopped reading their scriptures and having personal prayer long before they left. When I feel less spiritual or less "churchy" (as I call it) it's because I've become lazy in my diligence of scripture study and prayer. And there were a couple of times that I was tempted to not pay my tithing. When those temptations ran through my mind, the Holy Spirit smacked me upside the head and reminded me that I was on a slippery slope.

My interactions with less active members have shown me that most of them still believe the church is true. They don't go to church for other reasons. Most don't read the scriptures. Most seem unfamiliar with personal prayer. Most break the WoW. Most don't pay tithing. So, although their names are on the record of the church, they have essentially left the church.

Just some of my observations and reminder for myself to stay diligent.

[Misshalfway]

I guess that's where I'm different than a lot of ya'll. I think that there are diverse ways to leave the church. And I truly believe that if we let the little things slide that they lead to greater things.

I once remember hearing someone tell me that people who leave the church typically have stopped reading their scriptures and having personal prayer long before they left. When I feel less spiritual or less "churchy" (as I call it) it's because I've become lazy in my diligence of scripture study and prayer. And there were a couple of times that I was tempted to not pay my tithing. When those temptations ran through my mind, the Holy Spirit smacked me upside the head and reminded me that I was on a slippery slope.

My interactions with less active members have shown me that most of them still believe the church is true. They don't go to church for other reasons. Most don't read the scriptures. Most seem unfamiliar with personal prayer. Most break the WoW. Most don't pay tithing. So, although their names are on the record of the church, they have essentially left the church.

Just some of my observations and reminder for myself to stay diligent.

Wasn't your first question not only what it would take to leave the church but what it would take to denounce ones faith?

Those two things are very different with lots of circumstances lying inbetween.

I also find it interesting that sometimes we define righteousness in the church in a very law of moses sort of mentality. We get stuck in the checklist of behaviors and miss the more important parts of the law. I can't look at a lessactive who may be smoking and make any sort of accurate judgement on that person's heart or how their spirit might be Christlike.

I am uncomfortable with such final statements as "they have essentially left the church" as if the "church" were confined to smoking, vting and not watching football on Sunday. As if everyone who doesn't smoke is kind and loving and sanctified.

I think the church agrees with me as they don't use the term "inactive" anymore. There are lots of avenues that lead to apostasy and some of them happen inside the confines of the mormon checklist.

[The_Seeker]

My interactions with less active members have shown me that most of them still believe the church is true. They don't go to church for other reasons. Most don't read the scriptures. Most seem unfamiliar with personal prayer. Most break the WoW. Most don't pay tithing. So, although their names are on the record of the church, they have essentially left the church.

Just some of my observations and reminder for myself to stay diligent.

So you're saying that in your experience most people leave the Church due to laziness? I can see how that would happen, especially considering the commitment level it takes to be a Latter-Day Saint.

I admit that I struggle with that to some extent too, especially Church attendance. My job requires me to work sometimes on Sundays, and I've discovered that after having to miss church several weeks in a row sometimes it's hard to make myself get up and go once I do have the chance. But when I make the effort it's always worth it.

[Misshalfway]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. The doctrine is much easier to part with than the culture for those of us who were raised in it.

For me, its the opposite.:)

[Vort]

I wanted to make sense of the doctrine rather than put faith in it. I took an intellectual approach to it rather than a spiritual one.

Godless, can you imagine if a young child wanted to take an intellectual approach to arithmetic, by which he means understand all the reasons that the symbolic manipulations work, instead of simply accepting the process of arithmetical symbolic manipulation "on faith"?

"I am nine whole years old, and I see no reason why following this long division algorithm will provide me with a believable answer. Until I can understand that perfectly and be convinced that it's a meaningful process, I will not subject myself to the ridiculous constraints of long division."

The fact is, some things are not, indeed cannot be, understood before they are undertaken. It is only in the doing that the process becomes meaningful, and it is only then that the meaningfulness of the process begins to become apparent.

LDS doctrine makes sense from a logical standpoint. If some of it seems incredible, well, so what? Flying to the moon seems pretty darn incredible, too, but neither of us doubts it took place. If you waited until you understood every aspect of aerospace physics, particle dynamics, rocketry, remote systems operation, human reaction in a zero-g environment, etc. etc. ad nauseam before you were willing to believe that we had gone to the moon, then you would be an Apollo conspiracy theorist.

[Justice]

The doctrine is rooted in me. Every time I learn something new it's as if I knew it all along. I love the teachings of the the Church that are mostly unique to the Church (as far as Christians go anyway):

Eternal families

Pre-earth life

Adam and Eve made the right choice

We are literal chidlren of God

...on an on.

[beefche]

Wasn't your first question not only what it would take to leave the church but what it would take to denounce ones faith?

Those two things are very different with lots of circumstances lying inbetween.

I also find it interesting that sometimes we define righteousness in the church in a very law of moses sort of mentality. We get stuck in the checklist of behaviors and miss the more important parts of the law. I can't look at a lessactive who may be smoking and make any sort of accurate judgement on that person's heart or how their spirit might be Christlike.

I am uncomfortable with such final statements as "they have essentially left the church" as if the "church" were confined to smoking, vting and not watching football on Sunday. As if everyone who doesn't smoke is kind and loving and sanctified.

I think the church agrees with me as they don't use the term "inactive" anymore. There are lots of avenues that lead to apostasy and some of them happen inside the confines of the mormon checklist.

You're right: leaving the church and denouncing one's faith are 2 different things.

I learned on my mission that the true mission of the church is to help people receive the necessary ordinances to eternal life. Essentially, that means get them temple endowed/sealed--understanding that there are restrictions to having that done (a person's mental capacity, logistics of a temple, etc.). But, I made it a point of my mission to prepare my members for attaining a temple recommend now (at that time, it was nearly impossible to think of them actually going to a temple).

So, in essence, the church IS the gospel. It is only through the church that one can make saving covenants and receive saving ordinances. There is definitely a church culture and alot of Law of Moses type of judgments made of people. But, if one is not living worthy to receive ordinances, then one is leaving the church. It's more than just attending church. Many of our members are not able to attend church regularly due to their job or health or other circumstances. But many of them are temple worthy.

I just worry when I hear people say, "I'll never leave the church." or "my testimony is too strong" as if they are immune to Satan and his temptations and traps. I was one of those people--until I saw how many "strong" members stray. I honestly feel that I will never leave--but I remind myself that there were others who said the same thing and were led carefully away. So, instead of just saying that, I look to see how I can improve my relationship with God and work towards making that true.

[Misshalfway]

Last Fast meeting, this guy bore his testimony and said he was finally starting to understand what Paul said when he referred to himself as a "prisoner of Christ." (Eph 3:1)

This sentiment really spoke to me. Once you know, leaving becomes a rather dicy proposition. For me, its as Justice just said. The truths of the gospel seem to be written inside my soul. I can't escape them. They would prolly follow me to end of my days. I don't think I would be blessed with the ignorance of apostate blindness. The knowldege would always stand as a witness against me.

I am reminded of Amulek's regretful statement...."I knew concerning these things, but I would not know". It seems that state of mind was shortlived as Amulek finally couldn't hide from it anymore.

[Prodigal_Son]

At this point..I can't honestly think of anything that would have me considering leaving the Church.

Not even if your football team was eliminated?

[zippy_do46]

This church can be torture for a shy person. Bless the person that decided to put me in the Nursery calling. I was less active for almost 10 years. I had VT and HT until we moved and they had no idea where we went. My mom told me I needed to get back into the church. She did not mean the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Even after 10 years I knew the gospel was true. I just felt like I could not live it. I told her this. Then the missionaries came knocking at my door. I had prayed that I could get enough courage to go back to church and here they were. When they found out I was already a member I had VT and HT come by that night. Luck I don't think so. I am stronger now. I have been on both sides. I know Heavenly Father has used that fact several times as I serve others. My callings in the Nursery seem to take me back to the basic gospel just when I need it.

I would never say that I would never get out of the church. I know how easy it was and how tortured I felt when I knew the truth and had to work myself back in. I thank my Heavenly Father for not only sending the missionaries that first time, but the 2nd time also.