Why can't we know the full truth from the start?

[Guest mormonmusic]

This is a question that's always sort of perplexed me.

We know that salvation comes by obeying certain principles. Therefore, knowing those principles is critical to our salvation. Some people never get exposed to the principles, and adopt false ones, which they believe and live by. There are a ton of religions which have some basic truths in common, but also deviate on very important principles of salvation.

Why was it set up this way, with so little clarity and agreement at the outset about what the groundrules are for salvation? And with discovery of the truth based on highly subjective feelings, which require interpretation and attribution to God to be correctly understood?

If we all knew up front the Church was true, the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, and all other necessaries for salvation, we could get on with trying to align our hearts and minds around them, rather than all this searching, and in the case of many, never finding the truth.

Now -- before anyone objects and says this is Satan's plan -- let me differ. Satan's plan was for everyone to comply with the requirements of salvation, thus taking away their agency. I'm not suggesting this. I'm suggesting a plan where everyone knows first-hand there is a God, and what His rules are. They are still free to choose whether they obey it, but at least they know up front what the rules are.

In my work as a teacher at one time, I had to let everyone know what the exam would be on. I had to let them know the material they had to demonstrate to be successful on the examination. To do otherwise, would be unfair.

Life seems to be set up so there's an exam, yet the requirements are actually quite hard to discern -- influenced by culture, upbringing, luck, geography etc. Why can't we know the rules up-front, with life's challenges focusing on self-discipline and obedience to them, rather than all the confusion that results from not knowing from the outset?

Edited November 25, 2009 by mormonmusic

[Maxel]

I think there's a difference between knowledge that's handed to us and knowledge that we seek to find. If we were all told the whole truth upfront, I think most of us would be in a worse position because we'd know the truth, but the state of our spirits would be different than if we had worked to attain that knowledge for ourselves- and the change might be so critical that it might render us spiritually impotent.

Greater knowlede must be sought- I can think of but few examples in the scriptures where wholly unsolicited knowledge (of any kind) was given to a mortal from a heavenly messenger. I think that even those sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise still need to actively seek out the information they need to grow and progress- and that's after coming very far and receiving all the ordinances pertinent to salvation.

As for the uneven discernment of of the exam of life- I also believe that each person's life situation has been heavily influenced by his/her actions in the pre-existence. Also, every person will have the chance to hear the Gospel in its simplest form and will have the opportunity to either accept or reject the witness of the Holy Ghost- either in this life or the next. I think that for this earth to reach its eternal, glorified state mankind has to live on it and use its resources- that would necessitate mankind living on his own, living in a fallen state on a telestial world. I think that also explains some of the discrepency between peoples' life situations.

[Dr T]

Hello M&M. That was a great question. I like how you lay out the question and I used to wonder the same thing. Maxel, that was a good answer to the question. I agree that there needs to be some searching and thinking invovled too. I do not agree however that things cannot be given up front, the savation message for example, then as they grow in their understanding of things from scripture, then there can be sanctification. Since being here, I've often read, "Line upon line and precept upon precept" or "Milk before meat" as an answer. I read all the works, would get into discussions and I was ready to hear all "deep" stuff (imo) and people would often backed off which made me think, "what or why are they hiding things?" They didn't want to talk too much about what the LDS church doctrines were all about. Then I'd get some information but not full information so I'd have to dig to get anywhere. Then I'd often get mixed messages or the old, "We are not the official site of the church" as a side step (again imo) to the questions. It seems to me to me more of a planned justification for the little bits of information that are doled out by the church until people are fully in the church before they give out more of the things that are WAY different than the Christian church. Then there are also the fear of people trying to set up something for "Anti" works or the "It's too sacred to discuss" answers. I'd guess there is a combination of all the above but I just want to say that that sort of thing makes many people think your church does it on purpose until it's "too late to back out." I know that might sound bad but that's how I see it now.

[Moksha]

In Stargate, they have a machine that can impart the knowledge

of the Ancients on to those who use the machine. The catch is

that the Human mind cannot hold all that information and after a

spurt of brilliant illumination, the body goes into systems failure.

[deseretgov]

1 Corinthians 12:4-6

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Ephesians 4:11-13(emphasis added

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

There are going to be difference religions and different belief systems. Until we come to a unity of faith in Christ. Which probably wont happen until the Millenium.

[stormwitch]

Hmmmm. I like that question, do you see the steam coming out of my ears? Let's see, what we know about knowledge. Adam and Eve were taught by the Lord in the Garden of Eden, and finally, by their decision, gained knowledge of good and evil. When they were cast out of the garden, there was an angel who taught them the gospel (whatever they did not already know). So, at this point of history mankind knew the whole plan, everything essential to return to Heavenly Father. He actually did provide this knowledge.

Same situation right after the flood at Noah's time. But obviously man was not able to keep the fullness of the gospel.

The problem about truth is: Not everybody likes it. And the more you sin, the less you like it. (Knowledge at school is a bit different. Like it or not, as a student you have to repeat it properly to earn a good grade.) Laman and Lemuel were taught well by their father, as I assume, and they saw angels -- but they were not willing to obey, and they and their children changed the teachings and traditions according to their taste.

God sent prophets over and over to restore the knowledge which was lost or corrupted. HE did his part, but Satan and man did their part as well and will continue doing it.

Nevertheless, in God's plan is a way to fix this too. If you never learned the truth because you never had the chance to do so, you will be taught in the Spirit World. And we here have genealogy and temple work to do that part which they cannot do.

I believe strongly, that everybody is judged not only by his/her deeds compared to the full law of God, but according to the knowledge he/she obtained or could have obtained. So if a person lives up to his/her knowledge and conviction and is - measured to these standards - a good person, he/she will most probably accept the gospel in the spirit world, and will receive the same celestial glory as anybody who accepted the gospel during his/her mortal existence. It is only a different way towards the same goal, necessary because of Satan's and man's doing, but already in the plan of salvation!

Does this make sense?

[applepansy]

I think the answer is pretty simple: agency and opposition in all things.

Aren't we here to be tested?

[Hemidakota]

This is a question that's always sort of perplexed me.

We know that salvation comes by obeying certain principles. Therefore, knowing those principles is critical to our salvation. Some people never get exposed to the principles, and adopt false ones, which they believe and live by. There are a ton of religions which have some basic truths in common, but also deviate on very important principles of salvation.

Why was it set up this way, with so little clarity and agreement at the outset about what the groundrules are for salvation? And with discovery of the truth based on highly subjective feelings, which require interpretation and attribution to God to be correctly understood?

If we all knew up front the Church was true, the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, and all other necessaries for salvation, we could get on with trying to align our hearts and minds around them, rather than all this searching, and in the case of many, never finding the truth.

Now -- before anyone objects and says this is Satan's plan -- let me differ. Satan's plan was for everyone to comply with the requirements of salvation, thus taking away their agency. I'm not suggesting this. I'm suggesting a plan where everyone knows first-hand there is a God, and what His rules are. They are still free to choose whether they obey it, but at least they know up front what the rules are.

In my work as a teacher at one time, I had to let everyone know what the exam would be on. I had to let them know the material they had to demonstrate to be successful on the examination. To do otherwise, would be unfair.

Life seems to be set up so there's an exam, yet the requirements are actually quite hard to discern -- influenced by culture, upbringing, luck, geography etc. Why can't we know the rules up-front, with life's challenges focusing on self-discipline and obedience to them, rather than all the confusion that results from not knowing from the outset?

read D&C 93... it explains how the Savior gain the fullness [knowledge] in this life.

[LDSpunkrocker]

my teachers never handed out the answers to the tests before we took them.

[Seminarysnoozer]

This is a question that's always sort of perplexed me.

We know that salvation comes by obeying certain principles. Therefore, knowing those principles is critical to our salvation. Some people never get exposed to the principles, and adopt false ones, which they believe and live by. There are a ton of religions which have some basic truths in common, but also deviate on very important principles of salvation.

Why was it set up this way, with so little clarity and agreement at the outset about what the groundrules are for salvation? And with discovery of the truth based on highly subjective feelings, which require interpretation and attribution to God to be correctly understood?

If we all knew up front the Church was true, the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, and all other necessaries for salvation, we could get on with trying to align our hearts and minds around them, rather than all this searching, and in the case of many, never finding the truth.

Now -- before anyone objects and says this is Satan's plan -- let me differ. Satan's plan was for everyone to comply with the requirements of salvation, thus taking away their agency. I'm not suggesting this. I'm suggesting a plan where everyone knows first-hand there is a God, and what His rules are. They are still free to choose whether they obey it, but at least they know up front what the rules are.

In my work as a teacher at one time, I had to let everyone know what the exam would be on. I had to let them know the material they had to demonstrate to be successful on the examination. To do otherwise, would be unfair.

Life seems to be set up so there's an exam, yet the requirements are actually quite hard to discern -- influenced by culture, upbringing, luck, geography etc. Why can't we know the rules up-front, with life's challenges focusing on self-discipline and obedience to them, rather than all the confusion that results from not knowing from the outset?

As many have already stated (just adding my two cents) we were taught the fullness of the gospel (i.e. - the plan of Salvation) before coming here, before this world began. You know it, I know it, we just have to get in touch with our spirit knowledge, this is why we use words like "feel" or "desires of the heart". It is more about remembering as opposed to learning something new. We sometimes express it as learning something new, finding the truth, discovering the truth, but in reality it is in us from the start. So to answer the question, we have been given the truth before we came here and everyone here signed the bottom line, so to speak. We knew what we were getting ourselves into. And we rejoiced at the thought of it. Anyone in any culture or circumstance can ponder the feelings of their heart and listen to the light of Christ they carry with them and ask for more. Where more is given more is expected but God in the end will take all of that into account. The person given one talent only needs to double it just like the one given 5 or 10. The person given one, is still capable of doubling it.

We all know from the outset, this is why Christ wants us to be like little children to once again listen to those promptings. Over time though we all harden our hearts to one extent or another. Deciding to watch the rated R movie when one is 12, or playing video games instead of reading the Bible when you are 10, etc. Little things that start very young is what keeps people from not remembering what has been already given. Then, repentance and faith are required to get it back.

I understand your question because I felt that way too at one point in my life. But, then you realize you've had it all along it was just covered up.

[talisyn]

Why can't we know the full truth from the start? What truth are we talking about? If it's Gospel truths I'd have to go with the math analogy. You teach addition and subtraction before you teach calculus. If it's Church history I'd go with a more organic approach. As you learn more you get curious about events, do your own research, and learn about polygamy and Porter Rockwell and stuff like that.

Line upon line, precept on precept, is a learning system used for many subjects. It seems to be considered flawed only in reference to the 'oh nuuoooo why didn't they tell me about that why all the secrecy' religious subjects

[Guest mormonmusic]

Tailsyn:

I'm talking about the basic truths -- whether there is a God, the fact that salvation comes by Jesus Christ, and the ordinances and commitments that are required for salvation.

There are people who go their whole lives confused about these issues, and eventually just make up their mind it's a certain way -- perhaps even concluding there is no God, no after-life, and that matters of right and wrong are relative.

Others latch on to "truth" as presented by charismatic personalities like Jim Jones and the People's Temple, only to find themselves led to commit suicide in the name of the truth....(an extreme example, admittedly).

The lack of clarity on these matters has led to wars, persecution, confusion, and even loss of testimony for people who even do find the truth, but start having doubts about it because it's not glaringly clear wha the truth is, or because learning it is often based on subjective feelings.

Some have posed answers to this question -- that searching is part of the plan, but I'm still not convinced, unfortunately that the benefits outweigh the costs of all the confusion and loss of progression in this life, that such confusion creates. Many times, I've wished everyone knew what the truth was, and that the challenges of life focused on exercising agency in the harmony with these known truths that are clearly exposed to everyone from the start.

[stormwitch]

Some have posed answers to this question -- that searching is part of the plan, but I'm still not convinced, unfortunately that the benefits outweigh the costs of all the confusion and loss of progression in this life, that such confusion creates. Many times, I've wished everyone knew what the truth was, and that the challenges of life focused on exercising agency in the harmony with these known truths that are clearly exposed to everyone from the start.

Well, not only searchin is part of the plan, free/moral agency is a big part in it. And people choose not to teach and know the truth ( as I posted earlier). If we knew everything to be true, without any doubt, we would not believe any more. And living in a state of believing and not knowing is part of our mortal existence. If we knew these things to be true, than we were kind of forced to keep the commandments, because otherwise we were in very open rebellion towards God. And this is coming very close to the system Satan proposed.

I guess, everybody now and then wishes that everybody knew. But isn't it great, that even though people might not know everything, there is a fair God who gives us all the chance to return to Him? This is far more important than anything else to me! We might take totally different ways, and some of us might qualify only after death, but all of us have the option to qualify!

Oh by the way, remember the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16... upon the rich man's question of sending Lazarus to his family he is told. "they have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. ... If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

I'm afraid, that will always be true.

[Dr T]

I think it's a one time deal, this life and that's all. We do not get to try again later imo.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Tailsyn:

Some have posed answers to this question -- that searching is part of the plan, but I'm still not convinced, unfortunately that the benefits outweigh the costs of all the confusion and loss of progression in this life, that such confusion creates. Many times, I've wished everyone knew what the truth was, and that the challenges of life focused on exercising agency in the harmony with these known truths that are clearly exposed to everyone from the start.

I don't think it is because of the value of searching in and of itself. It is more of a question of how one learns things spiritually versus secular learning. One has to learn spiritual things spiritually. Confusion comes from the secular thinking interfering with pure spiritual knowledge. Part of the purpose of this life is to learn how to overcome the passions of this body which include anxiety, frustration and confusion. The learning process isn't so much gathering facts as it is not letting temporal things get in the way of your understanding.

Like I said, I think what you said; "I've wished everyone knew what the truth was, and that the challenges of life focused on exercising agency in the harmony with these known truths that are clearly exposed to everyone from the start" is true. The second someone decides not to listen to the promptings from the light of Christ we are all born with is the second they have already exercised their agency against what they know inside. Like I said, I think this happens at a young age, maybe 9, 10 years old even and in some continues to the point of not even believing in a God.

If you are asking why can't everyone comprehend spiritual things on a temporal level, well that is just not possible. 1 Cor 2:13-14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"

[Guest mormonmusic]

I think these are thoughtful answers. I started responding to each one with what I thought, agreeing with some, and disagreeing with others, but that got me into trouble on another board because it was perceived as being argumentative, so I won't do it here (see how I'm learning during my earthly existence?!).

So, I'll add another reason why the world may be set up to be confusing about what the ground rules are for salvation -- accountability.

In keeping the rules vague to people, and requiring spiritual discernment of the truth, God may well, in the end, have more souls saved. This is because people who are not spiritually discerning will not be held accountable for what they don't know or can't discover in this life.

They will still get the benefits of a physical body, will be judged against their conscience during this life, but will not be held to a higher standard which they may well "fail against" -- because they never knew the fulness of the truth.

They will receive the truth in the next life, as we know, where there has to be more evidence that at least our spirits are eternal, and more information to us that we do have an eternal existence. Will there be non-believers in spite of the additional knowledge? Yes, but many will believe because they will at least know that life continues after death, and that their spirits are eternal. Many more will likely accept the truth with this additional information, and may be persuaded to therefore live it more fully.

The Lord's desire to lessen accountability in this life makes sense to me because accountability has been cited as one reason Jesus spoke in parables, said James E. Talmage, if I remember correctly. Jesus spoke in parables so that only those who were spiritually wise would understand the principles, and be held accountable for them. Those who were not spiritually discerning, would not understand, and therefore, not be held accountable.

Therefore, one might conclude that all this confusion about what is true, and what isn't may be evidence of God's mercy.....

Edited November 26, 2009 by mormonmusic