Jesus on the Cross

[Justice]

In response to the locked thread, Jesus in the Garden, I'd like to move away from the discussion in that thread, and approach the explanation differently. I don't feel I had a chance to adequately express my thoughts. Obviously, I'm speaking directly to lattelady, but to all who read the other thread, this might be a good conclusion.

lattlelady, since you titled your thread Jesus in the Garden and then moved forward from there to an event you propose is greater, Jesus on the Cross, I'd like to offer something for you to think about in like manner. So, I made this thread, Jesus on the Cross, and will move forward to an event I believe to be greater. I am in no way trying to reduce or minimize Jesus on the Cross. Please understand that I do not fault you for being so sensitive to this discussion. As you will see, I believe the Cross was in fulfillment of prophecy, and is a necessary part of what allows us the chance to be redeemed.

If you consider Jesus' life just as it happened, all the way up until after His death on the cross, and imagine if His resurrection from the dead never happened, that would made the Garden and Cross meaningless. In fact, if any one of the three did not happen, that would make the other 2 meaningless.

I will readily admit that Jesus on the Cross is the single darkest hour for mankind. It alone symbolizes the depravity of man more than any other single event. Even above the Garden and His resurrection, Jesus on the Cross symbolizes His ultimate sacrifice for mankind. This is why His death on the cross is spoken of primarily in the scriptures.

I propose, and submit for your pondering, that had Christ remained dead, or was not resurrected, then the cross would have had victory over Christ and all those who choose to follow Him. But, because Christ rose above the cross and overcame death, His resurrection and return to life; immortal, perfect, pure, and holy, the cross is forever struck into insignificance. This is the primary reason why we typically like to think about the living Christ and not the Christ hanging on the cross about to die, or dead.

I believe it took all three, the Garden, the Cross, and the Resurrection for the plan and purpose of God to be fulfilled. Christ atoned for the sins of mankind, and without all 3 of these mentioned, man was lost and fallen forever.

Matthew 26:

37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.

38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

We believe Jesus suffered more than it is possible for man to suffer and live. Since He died on the cross, the suffering had to be another suffering, one which He lived through, or overcame.

Mosiah 3:

7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

Mark 14:

32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray.

33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

Luke 22:

43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Christ shed His blood, but not like you and I when we bleed. If we loose enough blood we die. Christ did not. He remained alive to suffer an eternal weight; the weight of perfect justice for all broken law.

Even the scriptures in the New Testament do not say His anguish in the Garden was in anticipation of the cross. That is something you have to read into the text, almost denying the real suffering all the Gospels mention took place in the Garden. This agony was real; so real, in fact, that an angel appeared to strengthen Him, something that did not happen while He was on the cross.

Again, I say that if the physical suffering He endured while on the cross was the pinnacle of His suffering, then His suffering was no different than thousands of other men who died in the same manner. In fact, most men who were crucified never made it past the 39 lashes. There was more to His suffering, and it is clearly alluded to in the New Testament. His suffering was one of spirit (or soul), not of the physical body, one we cannot even possibly begin to fathom.

Christ's suffering in Gethsemane, where He was pressed with the weight of all sin (wine press), His death upon the cruel cross at Golgotha, and in the garden tomb where the stone that rolled away tells of the Savior's resurrection, were ALL needed for Christ to complete the work His Father gave Him, and complete the atonement for mankind.

And, just as His suffering in Gethsemane was meaningless without His death on the cross, His death on the cross was meaningless without His resurrection 3 days later.

I know this to be true. I hope you read this with a sincere desire to understand what I'm trying to say. It's not that we are trying to reduce your reverence for what Christ did for you on the cross, we are trying to show you that He did far more for you than just die for you on the cross. He also suffered so sorely that He bled from every pore, and after He died for you on the cross, He overcame death and is now able to pass the resurrection on to you.

[OneEternalSonata]

Amen.

[Misshalfway]

My father taught me that during the time on the cross that all of the pains of gethsemane returned. The same time when the Father left Christ alone to suffer the spiritual death that was referenced before. I am trying to remember which general authority talked about this and where I read about it. You'll have to forgive my memory.

I guess I am just trying to make the point that what happened on the cross is absolutely important. But I think its crucial to understand that physical death alone wouldn't pay for the sins of all of mankind. Dying and resurrecting could only solve one of our fundamental problems from the fall. The spiritual suffering in the garden is just as fundamentally essential.

[Justice]

I am trying to remember which general authority talked about this and where I read about it. You'll have to forgive my memory.

It was Bruce R. McConkie in his last conference talk before he died. I almost have it memorized... titled oddly enough "The Purifying Power of Gethsemane."

Finally, on a hill called Calvary—again, it was outside Jerusalem’s walls—while helpless disciples looked on and felt the agonies of near death in their own bodies, the Roman soldiers laid him upon the cross.

With great mallets they drove spikes of iron through his feet and hands and wrists. Truly he was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities.

Then the cross was raised that all might see and gape and curse and deride. This they did, with evil venom, for three hours from 9:00 a.m. to noon.

Then the heavens grew black. Darkness covered the land for the space of three hours, as it did among the Nephites. There was a mighty storm, as though the very God of Nature was in agony.

And truly he was, for while he was hanging on the cross for another three hours, from noon to 3:00 p.m., all the infinite agonies and merciless pains of Gethsemane recurred.

And, finally, when the atoning agonies had taken their toll—when the victory had been won, when the Son of God had fulfilled the will of his Father in all things—then he said, “It is finished” (John 19:30), and he voluntarily gave up the ghost.

One of my all-time favorite talks.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Purifying Power of Gethsemane

His closing remarks are powerful, especially in light of the fact it was his last address before he died, meaning he passed away within 6 months (I think about 5) from this address.

I am one of his witnesses, and in a coming day I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with my tears.

But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God’s Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Justice

[Misshalfway]

In the resurrection, I am gonna have a memory like yours. I have already sent in my requisition.

[Justice]

My memory is very selective. Did I say VERY?

If my wife saw your comment she wouldn't stop laughing until next week. :)

Edit: In fact, she just said omagosh a few times when I showed her. She said to tell you it's not too late to put in a new request!

Edited December 1, 2009 by Justice

[beefche]

Thank you, Justice. I think you explained the LDS view of Jesus Christ's Atonement very eloquently.

And I have to say that the last 2 paragraphs you quoted from Elder McConkie is very, very powerful. Every time I read those words in particular, I feel the Spirit and know that regardless of anyone's calling (be it prophet, bishop or door greeter), each of us can know and testify that we know our Savior.

[Guest]

Justice, may I add the BIRTH of Christ to that list of important events? First, he was born mortal...

It's Christmas time.

I agree with you, there is a marked difference between the way Catholics celebrate Easter to the LDS way. In the Philippines, Catholics wait in a looooong list of people to get literally crucified on Good Friday. Those that don't make it to the list take strips of banana bark (it is sticky) and roll it in broken glass and whip their backs with it while walking in a procession to the crucifixion site (they re-enact the "passion of Christ" every year in "real time" - they start on Palm Sunday when the volunteer Jesus "enters Jerusalem"). The smell of blood all over the city is disgusting. Even in the churches here in the US, they still do the really somber Holy Week stuff. And most churches still have the image of Jesus hanging on the cross on their altars. It almost seems like the resurrection is an after-thought in all the drama.

My conversion started on a Good Friday. I was in line at the Catholic church to kiss the foot of the wooden Jesus on the cross. When it was my turn, I couldn't get myself to do it. I was holding up the line and the priest was urging me on. I ran out of the church, crossed the parking lot, and joined my husband at the LDS church right next door who was enjoying the choir's Easter Cantata. I felt 200 times better.

[SolaFide]

So I am not a Mormon (I am a Reformed Baptist) and do not hold to the same theological position that a Mormon would. And I have to admit that I do not really understand what you believe about the Garden of Gethsemane. What do you think Jesus actually accomplished there? As achrisian I would say that the cross is where Jesus actually bore the sins of His people and satisfied the wrath of God, thereby imputing His righteousness to us and justifing us. If there was no resurrection then the atonement would still be important, but the effects of what Christ accomplished on the cross would only last until a person dies. However, in His resurrectuon He overcomes the weight of death and makes it possible to have life again and experience what Christ did for His people throughout all eternity. So from my perspective Christ actually accomplishes something on the cross and in His resurrection. But I don't understand what you think He does in the garden. I am not saying it is unimportant; but I would say that He is preparing for what is to come, not doing something in and of itself.

[sleepless3977]

i guess it comes down to whether you believe that revelation still exists as to whether you believe that the statements put before you previously are true or not.

If you are of the belief that God still does communicate with man via revelation through a living prophet then the statements of Elder McConkie fulfill what is spoken of in Amos and God's continued guidance to man.

In the 9th article of faith it reads: 9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet breveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. (Articles of Faith 1)

I believe that the following given by Elder McConkie to be true and given by the spirit of the Lord and that the agony suffered in the garden of Gethsemane was more than just preparation for what was to come:

Two thousand years ago, outside Jerusalem’s walls, there was a pleasant garden spot, Gethsemane by name, where Jesus and his intimate friends were wont to retire for pondering and prayer.

There Jesus taught his disciples the doctrines of the kingdom, and all of them communed with Him who is the Father of us all, in whose ministry they were engaged, and on whose errand they served.

This sacred spot, like Eden where Adam dwelt, like Sinai from whence Jehovah gave his laws, like Calvary where the Son of God gave his life a ransom for many, this holy ground is where the Sinless Son of the Everlasting Father took upon himself the sins of all men on condition of repentance.

We do not know, we cannot tell, no mortal mind can conceive the full import of what Christ did in Gethsemane.

We know he sweat great gouts of blood from every pore as he drained the dregs of that bitter cup his Father had given him.

We know he suffered, both body and spirit, more than it is possible for man to suffer, except it be unto death.

We know that in some way, incomprehensible to us, his suffering satisfied the demands of justice, ransomed penitent souls from the pains and penalties of sin, and made mercy available to those who believe in his holy name.

[SolaFide]

So you are saying that Christ took sins upon Himself in the Garden and in some way paid for them there. I would say that such a notion is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures. Christ took sins on the cross, that much is certain. "And He Himselfbore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you are healed." (1 Peter 2:24). But I know of no Biblical evidence that supports the concept of Jesus bearing sins in the garden. McConkie gives none. And I do not believe that God continues to give us revelation through apostles and propehts as He did during Old and New Testament times. I believe that there is no Biblical support for that position, although I do feel that there is support for the idea that prophets (in the sense in which we are speaking of them) have ceased. "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it." (Luke 16:16)

[sleepless3977]

what i believe is what is stated by Joseph Smith in the wentworth letter or known today as the articles of faith whereby he states that "we claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own cconscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may"

[beefche]

Sola, if you re-read what Justice wrote, you will see that LDS believe the atonement took place in the Garden and on the cross. He began to suffer for the sins of the world while in the Garden, continued that suffering while on the cross and finished His atonement when He was resurrected.

[Misshalfway]

Hello Sola,

I appreciate your concern. And I am glad that Beefche chimmed in when she did. I think she explained nicely how important both the garden and the cross are, not to mention resurrection itself.

From a Baptist point of view, what was Jesus doing in the Garden then? What sort of suffering, if not the weight of the sins of mankind, would cause a God to bleed from every pore require an angel to give added support so he could finish and plead with the Father to find another way? Was this some kind of purging? You said it was a preparation.......something I could agree with to a point.

[applepansy]

Justice, that was very well said. Thank you and I'll add my Amen too.

[SolaFide]

What was Jesus doing in the garden? Praying. He was sincerly afraid and was asking the Father remove this cup from Him. But, He aslo was submitting His will to the will of the Father. He was offering a final prayer for His people before He was taken to be killed. All of this was preperation for what was to come. I simply see no Biblical reason to say that He bearing sins in the garden like He was on the cross.

[Misshalfway]

What was Jesus doing in the garden? Praying. He was sincerly afraid and was asking the Father remove this cup from Him. But, He aslo was submitting His will to the will of the Father. He was offering a final prayer for His people before He was taken to be killed. All of this was preperation for what was to come. I simply see no Biblical reason to say that He bearing sins in the garden like He was on the cross.

I appreciate your answer but you didn't explain why Christ bled from every pore.

[Maureen]

The NET Bible says this about Luke 22:43-44:

22:43 [Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 22:44 And in his anguish 112 he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.] 113

113 tc Several important Greek mss (Ì75 א1 A B N T W 579 1071*) along with diverse and widespread versional witnesses lack 22:43-44. In addition, the verses are placed after Matt 26:39 by Ë13. Floating texts typically suggest both spuriousness and early scribal impulses to regard the verses as historically authentic. These verses are included in א*,2 D L Θ Ψ 0171 Ë1 Ï lat Ju Ir Hipp Eus. However, a number of mss mark the text with an asterisk or obelisk, indicating the scribe’s assessment of the verses as inauthentic. At the same time, these verses generally fit Luke’s style. Arguments can be given on both sides about whether scribes would tend to include or omit such comments about Jesus’ humanity and an angel’s help. But even if the verses are not literarily authentic, they are probably historically authentic. This is due to the fact that this text was well known in several different locales from a very early period. Since there are no synoptic parallels to this account and since there is no obvious reason for adding these words here, it is very likely that such verses recount a part of the actual suffering of our Lord. Nevertheless, because of the serious doubts as to these verses’ authenticity, they have been put in brackets. For an important discussion of this problem, see B. D. Ehrman and M. A. Plunkett, “The Angel and the Agony: The Textual Problem of Luke 22:43-44,” CBQ 45 (1983): 401-16. sn Angelic aid is noted elsewhere in the gospels: Matt 4:11 = Mark 1:13.

NETBible: Luke 22

[beefche]

Maureen, am I reading that correctly? I understand that to mean that that particular scripture may not be literally or historically correct and may have been added by a scribe later. If I understand that correctly, how does that measure up to what most Christians believe that the Bible is infallible?

[Vort]

And I do not believe that God continues to give us revelation through apostles and propehts as He did during Old and New Testament times.

Then your opinion holds no weight here.

[beefche]

Then your opinion holds no weight here.

Vort, that's not fair. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I appreciate everyone's viewpoint. I may not agree with their view, but I certainly don't think their opinion is worthless.

[Just_A_Guy]

Maureen, am I reading that correctly? I understand that to mean that that particular scripture may not be literally or historically correct and may have been added by a scribe later. If I understand that correctly, how does that measure up to what most Christians believe that the Bible is infallible?

Beefche, I think what the NET Bible is saying is that "it probably wasn't in the original text, but it probably did indeed happen."

[Vort]

Vort, that's not fair. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I appreciate everyone's viewpoint. I may not agree with their view, but I certainly don't think their opinion is worthless.

I didn't say it was worthless. I said it held no weight. And it doesn't. This is an LDS site, so obviously LDS beliefs predominate. Saying "I don't believe in the gift of prophecy" (despite clear teachings of that gift in the Bible) makes your opinion of no consequence.

[beefche]

I didn't say it was worthless. I said it held no weight. And it doesn't. This is an LDS site, so obviously LDS beliefs predominate. Saying "I don't believe in the gift of prophecy" (despite clear teachings of that gift in the Bible) makes your opinion of no consequence.

I still disagree with you. I value prisonchaplin's opinion and he isn't LDS. I may not agree if he tells me that following Pres Monson's counsel is of no worth, but PC offers more than simply disagreement opinions.

[Vort]

I still disagree with you. I value prisonchaplin's opinion and he isn't LDS. I may not agree if he tells me that following Pres Monson's counsel is of no worth, but PC offers more than simply disagreement opinions.

I bet if PC told you that President Monson's words were of no worth, that his opinion in that would hold no weight with you at all.