American LDS and Guns

[Vort]

I already supported my statement from our actual scriptures. You are welcome to come to terms with it any way you like.

Your support is specious. Affirming that God established the US Constitution is different from proclaiming the Constitution as scripture. The latter is a false affirmation. You are welcome to come to terms with this truth in any way you like.

[Vanhin]

Amen brother. However, not so sure about some of the amendments. Like 16 (income tax) and 26(18 to vote).

Yeah, I agree. If we are not careful, we will allow corruption to muck up this great thing that God established for us.

We cannot just sit back and allow our freedoms to be taken from us, or they will be.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Misshalfway]

I appreciate that and am with you 100%. Maybe that flexiblity factor is the most genius addition because America itself didn't know how to be completely free even though the ideals got us pretty far in the right direction. I guess freedom is easier to talk about than to actually accomplish. Not that we haven't done a pretty good job.

I am finding it increasingly important that I make sure I understand exactly what the constitution is and how this country might be moving away from it.

It's tough when the country doesn't share a proper understanding of what the Constitution says and under what conditions it fulfills its best objectives. All the more reason we need God to continue to inspire.

[Vanhin]

Your support is specious. Affirming that God established the US Constitution is different from proclaiming the Constitution as scripture. The latter is a false affirmation. You are welcome to come to terms with this truth in any way you like.

You have not once addressed anything that I actually "proclaimed" on this thread, yet.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vort]

You have not once addressed anything that I actually "proclaimed" on this thread, yet.

Of course I did. You claimed the US Constitution was "scripture". I addressed that false claim.

You also seem to have forgotten the following:

So, my question is this. What do the latter-day saints here make of the right of the People to keep and bear arms? Is it important to protect that right, and why (or why not)?

Yes, I think it's important. It is not tops on my list of priorities, but I do think it should be defended.

I believe that answering something that you asked counts as addressing something you "proclaimed".

Edited December 2, 2009 by Vort

[bytor2112]

Words of a Prophet:

I reverence the Constitution of the United States as a sacred document. To me its words are akin to the revelations of God, for God has placed his stamp of approval on the Constitution of this land. I testify that the God of heaven selected and sent some of his choicest spirits to lay the foundation of this government as a prologue to the restoration of the gospel and the second coming of our Savior.- Ezra Taft Benson (Prophet)

[bytor2112]

You claimed the US Constitution was "scripture"

You seem to have excluded "practically". I'm not an English major, BUT, it would seem that "practically" precludes his statement from meaning actual scripture...doesn't it?

[bytor2112]

From the Bible dictionary:

The word scripture means a writing, and is used to denote a writing recognized by the Church as sacred and inspired. It is so applied to the books of the O.T. by the writers of the N.T. (Matt. 22: 29; John 5: 39; 2 Tim. 3: 15). For an account of the process by which the books of the O.T. and N.T. came to be recognized as scripture, see Canon. Latter-day revelation identifies scripture as that which is spoken under the influence of the Holy Ghost (D&C 68: 1-4).

[NeuroTypical]

Gotta be careful with Ezra Taft Benson quotes. He said a whole bunch of stuff before he was a Prophet, that he never said again once he became the Prophet.

Now, that said, he became prophet Nov 85, and this quote appears in a speech he gave at BYU in Sept '86. So it appears to be good.

LM

[Vort]

You seem to have excluded "practically". I'm not an English major, BUT, it would seem that "practically" precludes his statement from meaning actual scripture...doesn't it?

Good point. I agree.

[bytor2112]

Gotta be careful with Ezra Taft Benson quotes. He said a whole bunch of stuff before he was a Prophet, that he never said again once he became the Prophet.

Now, that said, he became prophet Nov 85, and this quote appears in a speech he gave at BYU in Sept '86. So it appears to be good.

LM

Elder Benson was sustained as a Prophet, Seer and Revelator in 1943.

[Misshalfway]

From the Bible dictionary:

I appreciate the definition but not all parts of the orginal constitution feel inspired.

Then again, the scriptures have their flaws too.

Maybe I view the Constitution the same as the Bible..."as far as is translated correctly."

[Guest]

I don't like guns. I don't have the personality for it - uncontrollable nasty temper. But, I grew up in the Philippines during Martial Law (a.k.a. Marcos dictatorship). The first thing Marcos did when he became President - right before Martial Law - was to disarm the populace. That was a very bad thing.

The Philipipnes was lucky in a way because majority of the population have great respect for religion - especially the Catholic Church. When the Revolution happened to oust Marcos, we didn't have guns to fight the military, we had a parade of nuns complete with "penguin" habits give food and drink to the military barricades. The military couldn't move their tanks nor fire their weapons for fear of running over or hitting any of the nuns! Corazon Aquino - the people's choice for President to replace Marcos - was hidden in the Carmelite Sisters convent. The military didn't dare enter the convent.

If that would have happened in the US, I don't know how you could have revolted against the regime.

[Maxel]

I'm all for gun ownership. Modern conveniences and complacency have dulled many to the need to physically protect one's self, I think.

The creation of the gun brought about a revolution in warfare and combat. A gun is superior to other weapons in virtually every way imagineable (IMHO), and extremely effective. To that end, I support minor regulation of gun ownership- such as the requirement to obtain a permit to carry them in public- but I think the rule of thumb should be to allow people the freedom to carry effective means of protection on their persons. I think this goes back to the idea of defending one's self from physical abuse- not to mention that a nation without guns is much more susceptible to a despotic takeover, as anatess has attested.

[Traveler]

Just for the record I have mixed emotions about the 2nd amendment. I am a gun owner but I do not own any hand guns. I am not sure that having a gun, especially a hand gun for protection is a good idea. The reason is that I believe that if anyone ever fires a gun with the intent to do harm in a critical situation they are as likely to harm or kill a friend as a foe.

It is my personal feeling that the right to own a gun has responsibilities. I personally believe that the unlawful use of a gun should be a capital offence. This includes any unlawful threat to use a gun even if someone making the threat does not have a gun. I also believe that any commission of a felony with the use of a gun should be a capital offence. The only exception may be for a child under the age of 8. I do not believe in innocents by reason of insanity or incompetence. I believe this should be changed to guilty by reason of insanity or incompetence. The point being that a right to life is forfeited when someone has proven to be a threat to the lives of others that are both sane and competent.

Just as a note in passing – I believe I could make a gun from the contents of about 80% of the garages in this country. I made my first gun at about age 10 that I used to hunt rabbits and stray cats.

The Traveler

[Vort]

Just for the record I have mixed emotions about the 2nd amendment. I am a gun owner but I do not own any hand guns. I am not sure that having a gun, especially a hand gun for protection is a good idea. The reason is that I believe that if anyone ever fires a gun with the intent to do harm in a critical situation they are as likely to harm or kill a friend as a foe.

It is my personal feeling that the right to own a gun has responsibilities. I personally believe that the unlawful use of a gun should be a capital offence. This includes any unlawful threat to use a gun even if someone making the threat does not have a gun. I also believe that any commission of a felony with the use of a gun should be a capital offence. The only exception may be for a child under the age of 8. I do not believe in innocents by reason of insanity or incompetence. I believe this should be changed to guilty by reason of insanity or incompetence. The point being that a right to life is forfeited when someone has proven to be a threat to the lives of others that are both sane and competent.

Just as a note in passing – I believe I could make a gun from the contents of about 80% of the garages in this country. I made my first gun at about age 10 that I used to hunt rabbits and stray cats.

The Traveler

I could agree with that. Tell the gun lobby, "No weapons restrictions will be enacted. It's a free-for-all! But remember, ANY felony done with a firearm means MANDATORY execution."

But then, I have long thought that a solution to the drug problem would be to tell people, "Drink, smoke, or shoot up with whatever you care to. No laws will be made to illegalize anything. But remember, anyone who supplies such drugs to minors, IN EVERY INSTANCE, will be subject to mandatory execution. In other words: Any time someone under the age of 21 uses drugs, someone will die for it. Have fun!"

Of course, that would not work, and neither would the firearm idea. But it's fun to think about.

[Over43]

I had a larger than life German Shepard for 14 years. Never needed a gun. Now he's gone, I own a Walther. But am still looking for a German Shepard for back up.

[Traveler]

I could agree with that. Tell the gun lobby, "No weapons restrictions will be enacted. It's a free-for-all! But remember, ANY felony done with a firearm means MANDATORY execution."

But then, I have long thought that a solution to the drug problem would be to tell people, "Drink, smoke, or shoot up with whatever you care to. No laws will be made to illegalize anything. But remember, anyone who supplies such drugs to minors, IN EVERY INSTANCE, will be subject to mandatory execution. In other words: Any time someone under the age of 21 uses drugs, someone will die for it. Have fun!"

Of course, that would not work, and neither would the firearm idea. But it's fun to think about.

You and I have different ideas. I believe it is up to the citizens to be the basis for formulating and inforcing law. The only laws I believe are innefective are the laws most citizens to not understand or support. The only way illegal druggs or anything else has hold in society is because citizens enable it.

Most of society may not support my ideas but because I have the right of freedom of speach - I use it.

I believe citizens solve problems and the government should support its citizens. I do not believe in reversing these roles.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I had a larger than life German Shepard for 14 years. Never needed a gun. Now he's gone, I own a Walther. But am still looking for a German Shepard for back up.

Interesting - only once in my life of over 60 years have I had to resort to deadly force for the protection of myself or others.

The Traveler

[Over43]

Interesting - only once in my life of over 60 years have I had to resort to deadly force for the protection of myself or others.

The Traveler

I've never had to, but when I was 13 I saw my grandpa shove a shot gun in the face of a man who was trying to break into the travel trailer we were in. The man said he was very sorry and left, face intact.

[Justice]

I think parts of the Constitution are inspired, other parts maybe not so. Like, where are the legal ramifications of adultery?

In any case, I believe law abviding citizens should be allowed to own guns.

[hordak]

I could agree with that. Tell the gun lobby, "No weapons restrictions will be enacted. It's a free-for-all! But remember, ANY felony done with a firearm means MANDATORY execution."

This i why i like Florida. They are very permissive when it comes to owning guns, one of the first states to allow concealed carry IIRC, and are a "Shall issue state".

But they are very stringet on the missuse of this right with a 10 20 life law

pull a gun 10 years minimum

fire it, 20

injure someone 25- life.

[Vort]

This i why i like Florida. They are very permissive when it comes to owning guns, one of the first states to allow concealed carry IIRC, and are a "Shall issue state".

But they are very stringet on the missuse of this right with a 10 20 life law

pull a gun 10 years minimum

fire it, 20

injure someone 25- life.

And yet Miami is infamous for its out-of-control murder rate. Such laws do not work unless they are stringently applied, and even then they are likely just to generate a bunch of lifers. The key is to change the hearts of the people, and laws don't do that.

In any civilized society, laws are the last resort to modify behavior. We are using them as a first resort, with the result that we are losing our freedoms even while our society decays around us due to lawless behavior.

[NeuroTypical]

Elder Benson was sustained as a Prophet, Seer and Revelator in 1943.

Yeah, and he made all sorts of proclomations and announcements and had all sorts of opinions expressed outside of that office. He wrote lots of books published by Deseret Book, and also lots of politically-themed books published by Bookcraft.

And again, yeah, once he moved from Apostle to President, he outright stopped a lot of the political stuff.

Draw whatever conclusions you wish about why this happened. The conclusion I draw is that humans get opinions that are either right or wrong, and EZB has a lot of published opinions.

LM

[bytor2112]

Yeah, and he made all sorts of proclomations and announcements and had all sorts of opinions expressed outside of that office. He wrote lots of books published by Deseret Book, and also lots of politically-themed books published by Bookcraft.

And again, yeah, once he moved from Apostle to President, he outright stopped a lot of the political stuff.

Draw whatever conclusions you wish about why this happened. The conclusion I draw is that humans get opinions that are either right or wrong, and EZB has a lot of published opinions.

LM

I tend to agree with his opinions, BUT, for our purposes here, the only relevant statements from him are those that can easily be found in church publications.