Need advice

[Sisterjanedoe1]

I just found this forum and I am so glad I did. I really need some input on a problem I am having. I have been a member of the church all my life although I have been inactive at times. I have recently started going back again and something is bothering me that is going on in my ward. Not too long after I started back,the church started integrating the Spanish speaking ward with ours. When I go to Sunday school and Relief Society it is very distracting when the interpreters speak in Spanish, to the point I lose focus on the lesson. My question is, Is the church aiding and abetting criminal behavior by doing this? If the Spanish speaking people had come here the legal way, they would know how to speak English because that is required when you become a U.S citizen. Now I am starting to wonder if they are here illegally. The Lord and the Prophets have said we are to obey the laws of the land. I have been bothered by this for weeks now and have not discussed this with anyone for fear I will be considered a racist,which I am not. Any advise on the issue would be very helpful. Thank You in advance:)

[Sisterjanedoe1]

Sorry, I didn't see the advise board on here before I posted this:huh:

[Guest Godless]

Keep in mind that there are many Hispanics in the US who are legal immigrants and yet aren't US citizens, and many of them don't speak English.

[OneEternalSonata]

Immigrating here legally doesn't make you proficient in English. Some people have a harder time learning languages than others. You're jumping to conclusions based on an erroneous assumption. The Church isn't aiding and abetting by teaching people in their native language.

[Sisterjanedoe1]

How can you be a legal immigrant and yet not be a U.S citizen. Just asking because I thought to be a legal citizen,you had to be a U.S citizen. Now I am confused.

[prisonchaplain]

I lived legally in Korea for six and a half years, but never became a citizen. I was a "legal resident." Many who come to our land, even with the purpose of immigration, begin this way. When someone says, "I have a green card," it means they are a resident, not a citizen. I citizen doesn't need a card. I never got one. :-)

[Jenamarie]

My DH is a "Resident Alien" of the USA. He's been here since the mid 90's and while he is not a US citizen, he *is* here legally.

Also, I don't believe "must speak english" is a requirement for citizenship, since the US has no official language. (at least not Federally recognized. some states have official languages)

[Jenamarie]

One more thing.

Just because someone may have learned English, doesn't mean that they have a complete comprehension of it. That takes many many years. It may be that these members learn the gospel better in their native language, even though they can understand English. There's a lot of nuance to language that goes beyond just knowing the mechanics of speaking it.

[pam]

Also there are many who comes to the US on work visas, visa to attend school and other reasons.

[Taldarin]

The U.S. does not actually have an official language, so no one is required to learn english. English is simply the language most commonly spoken.

Although it should be made the official language =P

[Mahone]

Excerpt taken from: USCIS - Citizenship for Permanent Residents

*

Be at least 18 years old at the time of filing the Application for Naturalization, Form N-400

*

Have been lawfully admitted to the United States

*

Have resided as a permanent resident in the United States for at least 5 years or 3 years if you meet all eligibility requirements to file as a spouse of a U.S. citizen

*

Have demonstrated continuous permanent residence

*

Have demonstrated physical presence

*

Have lived for 3 months in the USCIS district or state where the Application for Naturalization, Form N-400 is filed

*

Demonstrate good moral character

*

Show an attachment to the U.S. Constitution

*

Be able to read, write, speak, and understand basic English

*

Demonstrate a knowledge of U.S. civics (history and government)

*

Take the oath of allegiance to the United States

So yes, you do have to known the basics of English to become a US citizen.

[Vort]

Do you believe in the divine right of kings? That is, do you believe that kings rule their kingdom because God put them there? The rule of the kings of England, and by extension the very existence of the pervasive and rigid hierarchical structure of English society "classes" that lives on to some extent to this very day, was justified by this thinking. "I deserve to live in splendor and collect taxes from the poverty-stricken serfs (or itinerant farmers) on my land because I was born into this landed family. That man deserves his starvation, poverty, and misery, because he was born into that poor family. You can tell we both deserved it, because we were born to our station, so God put us here."

Like most Americans, I reject this thinking. There is no "divine right of kings"; that is merely an excuse made up by rich people to justify their riches and their oppressive behavior toward their fellow man. If we are born into riches and luxury, it means we have a duty to use those riches to help our fellow man, not persist in his oppression.

Similarly, I tend to reject the idea that we Americans deserve the liberties in our country because, hey, we were born here, but the unwashed aliens deserve no such thing. I have absolutely no problem with the need to secure our borders, but I have a very large problem with immigration law as it stands and with the view of "illegal immigrants" as criminals. They are, for the most part, people just like you and me, people who found themselves in poverty and are trying to make something better for themselves and for their children. They do not have the education to understand all the legal niceties of immigration or the financial means to jump through those hoops.

For the most part, these are hard-working, honest, scared individuals doing the best they know how, and only because of procedural technicalities do they find themselves on the wrong side of the law. They constitute the American "serf" class, working for pennies to scrape by, often exploited by those who want cheap mass labor. We who enjoy our cheap food picked by "undocumented workers" and who buy our cheap burgers to feed our obese faces at the restaurants staffed by underpaid "illegals" are the beneficiaries of this system. We live off the sweat of our fellow being, rather than by our own sweat, as we have been commanded. It is utterly unconscionable, and one of the areas I find myself in stark contrast to many other conservatives.

I am pleased as punch, in fact quite proud, that the LDS Church specifically reaches out to these people to share the gospel with them. I think it is a sign of a Christ-like people.

[pam]

Amen Vort!!!! I am totally with you on this one.

Edited December 13, 2009 by pam

[lost87]

Excerpt taken from: USCIS - Citizenship for Permanent Residents

So yes, you do have to known the basics of English to become a US citizen.

ok....i would think that "basic" would be what I would learn in a lvl one foreign language class...i.e colors, numbers, cat, dog, where is the bathroom etc...Im pretty sure that words like atonement, redemption, salvation, eternity, covenant, etc wouldn't be included in a "basic" understanding of english. Therefore, it is entirely understandable that an individual who qualified for citizenship with their basic english abilities may still struggle in the church setting don't you think?

Not to mention all those who are LEGALLY here but are not citizens..they are not required to speak english.

Here is my struggle with the OP....you are sitting at church and thinking that the spanish speaking person next to you (a fellow ward member who you ought to be fellowshipping and treating like family) is a criminal simply because they need a translator....there are SOOOO many things wrong with that picture that all stem back to the most BASIC of gospel doctrines.

[Snow]

I just found this forum and I am so glad I did. I really need some input on a problem I am having. I have been a member of the church all my life although I have been inactive at times. I have recently started going back again and something is bothering me that is going on in my ward. Not too long after I started back,the church started integrating the Spanish speaking ward with ours. When I go to Sunday school and Relief Society it is very distracting when the interpreters speak in Spanish, to the point I lose focus on the lesson. My question is, Is the church aiding and abetting criminal behavior by doing this? If the Spanish speaking people had come here the legal way, they would know how to speak English because that is required when you become a U.S citizen. Now I am starting to wonder if they are here illegally. The Lord and the Prophets have said we are to obey the laws of the land. I have been bothered by this for weeks now and have not discussed this with anyone for fear I will be considered a racist,which I am not. Any advise on the issue would be very helpful. Thank You in advance:)

You are obviously confused on both how both the law and language work.

Being in the country legally does not magically cause you to speak English nor does speaking English cause your being in the country to be a legal stay.

[Snow]

Also, I don't believe "must speak english" is a requirement for citizenship, since the US has no official language. (at least not Federally recognized. some states have official languages)

Yes and no.

You must read, write and speak some SIMPLE English; there are exemptions for some older and long-term residents, as well as some disabled permanent residents.

I know some US citizens who know very, very little English.

[prisonchaplain]

Illegal immigration is another issue...but I will say that if we want people to respect our laws, our laws should be respectable. It should not take an immigration candidate with family members in this country 7-14 years for approval. This absurd inefficiency makes us look incompetent, imho.

[Guest mormonmusic]

As far as Church involvement goes -- whether we are aiding and abetting illegal immigrants, I've heard the issue discussed on two fronts.

First, is if they come here illegally, and then want to serve a mission from here. Can we actually call them as full-time missionaries? We were advised that we could, according to the laws.

Second, whether we can give them Church assistance in the form of money from our Church Welfare funds. The answer we received in Canada was that we couldn't give them money -- pay rent and utlility bils etcetera, but we could give them life-sustaining items like food. To give money would be facilitating illegal immigration.

It sounds a bit like you're frustrated with the presence of the Spanish people due to the distractions in meetinga, though, Is that perhaps the issue we should be discussing, rather than the legality of the Spanish people at Church?

Edited December 13, 2009 by mormonmusic

[Sisterjanedoe1]

I have my own beliefs about the out of control illegal population crossing our borders on a daily basis. My stand on this is if we have Spanish translators in church and a family moves into the ward and only speaks Russian,lets say,do we also get them a interpreter or anyone else that doesn't speak English? When Elders go to the MTC to learn different languages because they are going to foreign country's it does not take them "years and years". I know this is with the Lords help but why can't the Elders just have interpreters like the people who come here and after being here for years still not know how to carry on a conversation in English? It is very distracting and if you have never had this go on in your church meetings you will not know what I am talking about.

[pam]

Actually I do know what it's like. Having grown up in a ward that was 5 miles from Tijuana, Mexico we had numerous people who spoke very little English. We had interpreters. It was just something we did.

Let me give another example of this though not on the same subject. I was in a ward at one time that had an inactive lady who was attempting to come back to church. The problem was..she was extremely sensitive to certain smells especially colognes and perfumes. They would send her into a respiratory fit.

On one Sunday, the Bishop came into Relief Society and told us about this sister. He talked to us about fellowshipping the one. He also asked for our assistance as sisters to not wear any perfumes, colognes or scented lotions as to allow this sister to attend. He then asked...You might think this is drastic for one sister...but don't we do it even for the one? Absolutely.

Edited December 13, 2009 by pam

[Sisterjanedoe1]

Actually I do know what it's like. Having grown up in a ward that was 5 miles from Tijuana, Mexico we had numerous people who spoke very little English. We had interpreters. It was just something we did.

Let me give another example of this though not on the same subject. I was in a ward at one time that had an inactive lady who was attempting to come back to church. The problem was..she was extremely sensitive to certain smells especially colognes and perfumes. They would send her into a respiratory fit.

On one Sunday, the Bishop came into Relief Society and told us about this sister. He talked to us about fellowshipping the one. He also asked for our assistance as sisters to not wear any perfumes, colognes or scented lotions as to allow this sister to attend. He then asked...You might think this is drastic for one sister...but don't we do it even for the one? Absolutely.

How about a member that is contemplating not going because they are not getting anything out of the lessons because of the distraction? I am on the verge of not going anymore. I am not able to focus on the lessons and I must say, I am not the only one in my ward that feels this way. A number of sisters have made comments about this.

[pam]

Look at it from their perspective as well. They are having to listen to the person teaching in English as well. Do you perhaps think that it might be distracting for them as well? I'm starting to think this is more about people being inconvenienced than it is about showing love for these brothers and sisters as well. Is it because all of a sudden you have people that are different than the rest?

You mentioned they merged the wards. How difficult it must be for these people to leave a ward or a branch where they could understand every single word and come into a ward where they are having difficulty understanding and feeling that they aren't wanted or welcome there because of the language they speak.

Sometimes you have to give and take. It's not all about making it convenient for a certain group.

Mi espanol es muy poquito but I would welcome them with open arms.

Edited December 13, 2009 by pam

[lost87]

I have my own beliefs about the out of control illegal population crossing our borders on a daily basis. My stand on this is if we have Spanish translators in church and a family moves into the ward and only speaks Russian,lets say,do we also get them a interpreter or anyone else that doesn't speak English? When Elders go to the MTC to learn different languages because they are going to foreign country's it does not take them "years and years". I know this is with the Lords help but why can't the Elders just have interpreters like the people who come here and after being here for years still not know how to carry on a conversation in English? It is very distracting and if you have never had this go on in your church meetings you will not know what I am talking about.

just to let you know...we had a Mhong family move into our ward in middle tennessee...don't know what Mhong is? yeah I didn't either, thats because there aren't all that many of them....but guess what, you sure as heck better believe we got them a translator! why? because our ward is our family and the Lord's children speak all different kinds of languages, but they are still His children and all deserve the same....He isn't ethnocentric...He isn't an "english" only kind of guy. Our sacrament meetings are full of the translators voice and it really doesn't bother anyone at all....in fact, for me personally it just further testifies of the truth of Gospel and the goodness of the Lord and ADDS a tremendous amount to each meeting.

It kinda sounds like you have a bit of a vendetta against the hispanic/latino population that you really need to get over quick.

[lost87]

and btw...if you decide to stop going to church don't think that the "i couldn't focus" excuse will work at the pearly gates. You can't blame it on someone else.

As another perspective...i've been to LDS congregations in Russia, Bulgaria, Germany, France, Holland, and Italy and in EVERY single meeting whether it was a ward or branch of 8 people, I was greeted with open arms and provided very in depth translations of everything that was said in all meetings...Christ like love and compassion requires us to step a little out of our comfort zone and share the gospel of Christ with ALL, not just those who wouldn't be a distraction during sacrament meeting.

[Sisterjanedoe1]

"come into a ward where they are having difficulty understanding and feeling that they aren't wanted or welcome there because of the language they speak."

The ward and myself have never made them feel unwelcome. That is a pretty nasty conclusion to come to.