Is the deck stacked?

[bytor2112]

What about the people in China or India? Or, how about tribal Africans? Many or most will never hear about Christ....much less the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Surely, Heavenly Father knew this....is it just a shell game? Why was Bytor born in the United States and learned of the Gospel and accepted it? Why wasn't he born a malnourished, poverty stricken African kid that was destined to live a life of hunger and horror and die as a young teen? Is the system rigged? Was I better than that kid in the pre-existence or was it just luck of the draw?

Foreordination..... the Great and Noble ones...were there varying degrees of "valiance" among pre-existent spirits? Is that why the obvious inequity among peoples of the world? Is the deck stacked?

[Justice]

I'll get into my beliefs later as I enjoy this discussion.

But, it's obvious that the pre-earth existence had some bearing on how one would end up in this life, just look at how Lucifer and his followers ended up here.

Can it be used as a 100% guarantee that a person was valiant or not? I don't think so.

Study this verse:

Abraham 3:

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

[bytor2112]

The pre-existence fascinates me. I think it holds the key to WHY so many won't hear the Gospel in this life and WHY so many could care less. I do believe that they are/were varying degrees of commitment, just as there are today among Christians....else, how could the plan be fair?

[bytor2112]

Hmm....because HE knew them so well in the pre-existence? I mean, aren't these verses saying that the LOrd knows if they would have gladly received it or not......and ultimately lived it?

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

[sleepless3977]

if you can get your hands on it, a talk given by President Alvin R Dyer "For What a Purpose" talks alot about this topic and gives some insight into the questions you have asked. I have a hard copy somewhere but haven't found one online as yet. I'm not saying it's difinative but it is definately one view taken from the scriptures.

[bytor2112]

yes, our Father knows who we are. We are here proving to ourselves who we are. We aren't proving anything to God.

So, no need to be judged then? If Heavenly Father knows/knew who would and would not accept the Gospel and LIVE it......then, what's the point?

[Elphaba]

What about the people in China or India? Or, how about tribal Africans? Many or most will never hear about Christ....much less the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Surely, Heavenly Father knew this....is it just a shell game? Why was Bytor born in the United States and learned of the Gospel and accepted it? Why wasn't he born a malnourished, poverty stricken African kid that was destined to live a life of hunger and horror and die as a young teen? Is the system rigged? Was I better than that kid in the pre-existence or was it just luck of the draw?

Foreordination..... the Great and Noble ones...were there varying degrees of "valiance" among pre-existent spirits? Is that why the obvious inequity among peoples of the world? Is the deck stacked?

Actually, someone brought this up in another thread a month or so ago, and I admit, it is not a teaching I remember learning when I was a member. I just thought 1/3 went with Lucifer, 2/3 went with Christ. I don't remember hearing anything significant about different levels of "valiance," except when talking about blacks.

Regardless, if what you're positing is accurate, then statistically, hardly anyone stood up in favor of Christ at all.

Elphaba

[zippy_do46]

So the free have more to worry about? We have the word, the truth, and the choice? So maybe mmm we were not the choice ones being born in this country? interestingmmmm something to think about :0)

[bytor2112]

Regardless, if what you're positing is accurate, then statistically, hardly anyone stood up in favor of Christ at all.

As you know, those of us who who have been born on the earth kept their "first estate"....so all accepted Christ on some level. The question is how equal is the opportunity to keep our "second estate"? How much was predetermined in the pre-existence? Since we are eternal beings and our intelligences have always existed and God is omniscient, then perhaps that is why there is such a variance in human experience.

[bytor2112]

It does make one ponder though - I don't think we are trapped in any way by our environment, but are we trapped by ourselves? It seems that in the primordial chaotic start of things - not anything that God did - He didn't create us - just part of our self-existant nature... there were the great ones, and then there were the not so great ones - just the way the cookie crumbles... some are able to accept/change/grow/live, others are not (a very few of the others...)

Certainly that is why there are three degrees of Glory. Heavenly Father knew from the start that most would not return.....again, perhaps this explains why some live in such unfavorable conditions in mortality.

Of course we don't REALLY know if there is progression from one kingdom to the next...really. Do we??? The scriptures SEEM to suggest NO and I have read BRM's comments as well....BUT, one has to wonder....forever is a long, long time.

[bytor2112]

a third part, a third group, a third party... not 33%

Your saying....it wasn't 1/3 of all the spirits.....but something different?

[Moksha]

That part about foreordination and the deck being stacked runs squarely afoul of the idea that this life is a test. Are we saying it is a rigged test? If so why even bother. This idea is much too close to the idea of a limited room heaven for only 144,000 ticket holders.

Time for some theological correlation committee to make sense of this.

[Traveler]

What about the people in China or India? Or, how about tribal Africans? Many or most will never hear about Christ....much less the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Surely, Heavenly Father knew this....is it just a shell game? Why was Bytor born in the United States and learned of the Gospel and accepted it? Why wasn't he born a malnourished, poverty stricken African kid that was destined to live a life of hunger and horror and die as a young teen? Is the system rigged? Was I better than that kid in the pre-existence or was it just luck of the draw?

Foreordination..... the Great and Noble ones...were there varying degrees of "valiance" among pre-existent spirits? Is that why the obvious inequity among peoples of the world? Is the deck stacked?

Yes the deck is stacked. Everyone that comes into this life benefits greatly and will have unlimited possibilities. Whatever our station is it stacked for our good to bring good to others. If we think in terms of selfish desires we will fail - regardless of what is given us but when we think in terms of giving ourself for the benefit of other - G-d is able to use us - regardless of our station - to benefit others.

The Traveler

[deseretgov]

I feel that the factors that went into determining where we where born into this life are so many that it is impossible for us to know exactly why. Only God and His infinite knowledge could make those decisions.

[sleepless3977]

i mentioned earlier in this thread about an talk given by President Alvin R Dyer, For what a Purpose. Well i have found a copy of it online

For What Purpose

cheers

[hordak]

What about the people in China or India? Or, how about tribal Africans? Many or most will never hear about Christ....much less the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Surely, Heavenly Father knew this....is it just a shell game? Why was Bytor born in the United States and learned of the Gospel and accepted it? Why wasn't he born a malnourished, poverty stricken African kid that was destined to live a life of hunger and horror and die as a young teen? Is the system rigged? Was I better than that kid in the pre-existence or was it just luck of the draw?

Foreordination..... the Great and Noble ones...were there varying degrees of "valiance" among pre-existent spirits? Is that why the obvious inequity among peoples of the world? Is the deck stacked?

I'm going to pull a "hemidakota" and instead of giving a straight answer, give you a more cryptic on that forces you to research.

What does D&C 137 say about about who will inherit Celestial glory?

Is there a disadvantage?

[Hemidakota]

What about the people in China or India? Or, how about tribal Africans? Many or most will never hear about Christ....much less the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Surely, Heavenly Father knew this....is it just a shell game? Why was Bytor born in the United States and learned of the Gospel and accepted it? Why wasn't he born a malnourished, poverty stricken African kid that was destined to live a life of hunger and horror and die as a young teen? Is the system rigged? Was I better than that kid in the pre-existence or was it just luck of the draw?

Foreordination..... the Great and Noble ones...were there varying degrees of "valiance" among pre-existent spirits? Is that why the obvious inequity among peoples of the world? Is the deck stacked?

Hmm...I guess you have never heard of the starving children here in the Americas? It is a common problem throughout all nations when there are classes of distinction among the populace.

But, as you indicated, having agency does have consequences from our previous life in gaining the gospel in this life. This is not inequity but what is handed from both the FATHER and the Son to each individual. We have that choice to come or not. None of the children was forced to this earth in obtaining a body of flesh.

As one could look into the past, it would reveal some startling facts about amount of those who choose Lucifer’s plan over the Savior. I am not talking about the third of the host who were thrown out due to rebelliousness but our other brothers and sisters, who number was greater than those who choose the Savior’s plan. It was through the love and the labours acts of the few, sought out to redeem them from following the third highest ranked Son of Morning into perdition.

It is their own agency that provided the path to this earth, whether it is the fortunes or misfortunes of life. It matters not. They have received a body of flesh and bones. They are still greater than them whom were casted out of GOD’s realm forever.

Is a billionaire more fortunate than an impoverish person? Nay! What did the Lord tell the rich man? What happen afterwards? This man did not gain any foot into the least kingdom of the Celestial Kingdom by his fortunate. Instead, he served mammoth more than GOD and in the end, will reap his just reward. Nor does this excuse those who choose the impoverish path of mortality from accepting the same gospel or seek to live a good life. Both have the agency to listen to the Spirit or Light of Christ, which is embedded in their souls.

Those who do not have the opportunity, whether rich or poor, whether living in the extreme location of this earth or not, will have the opportunity in the next life. This is where you will have the opportunity to teach them the Gospel. Your experience here and your knowledge learned, will be a path for them to accept the plan provided in the spirit world. You will be a blessing to them for eternality.

Now, be of a good cheer. Go forth and prepare the way of the Lord. Build the part of the Vineyard the Lord has provided for you.

[Hemidakota]

I'm going to pull a "hemidakota" and instead of giving a straight answer, give you a more cryptic on that forces you to research.

What does D&C 137 say about about who will inherit Celestial glory?

Is there a disadvantage?

Good for you...some of our cyber brethren here need to research for themselves the truths.

[rameumptom]

Alma 29:8 says all will receive light and truth.

It looks "stacked" and unfair, if we only consider mortality. But when we also consider the Spirit World and all people getting a fair chance at exaltation, then we can just look at each individual's mortal life as a period of experience needed to understand eternal things on a smaller scale (especially that agency thingy).

[hordak]

Good for you...some of our cyber brethren here need to research for themselves the truths.

Yeah but you made me a liar with your last post. Why did you have go ans switch gears like that?

[Justice]

not so fast!

Do you believe there were some who were so valiant that all they needed was a body?

If not, I'll have to look up the quotes.

If you do, where do they enter in your picture?

Why must the 3rd group be less valiant than "us?"

Why can't those who were so valiant that all they needed was a body be the 3rd group?

"these" = every single person who was born onto Earth...

Jehova was speaking to the noble and great ones (I'm offering that it's speaking of the ones who only needed a body and would not need to actually "dwell" on earth)

Abraham 3:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

Doesn't this read like the "noble and great ones" were the 3rd group?

Could "these" (not noble and great ones) not be speaking about those (the 2nd group) who did not side with Lucifer, but wanted to come to earth and gain a body and be tested? Why can't this be seen as a "2nd" chance for those who needed to dwell on earth, or a test, instead of the ONLY way it could be done? Didn't the noble and great ones (those who did not need a body) already show us it *could have* been done in the pre-mortal existence? Don't we know it can be done in the post-mortal spirit world (physical ordinances by proxy)?

It seems some of the "noble and great ones" came to earth to fulfill specific missions, like Christ and Abraham. But, this reads as though most of the earth's population is not included in this same group.

What do you think?

Edited January 6, 2010 by Justice

[JohnnyRudick]

Hmm...I guess you have never heard of the starving children here in the Americas? It is a common problem throughout all nations when there are classes of distinction among the populace.

But, as you indicated, having agency does have consequences from our previous life in gaining the gospel in this life. This is not inequity but what is handed from both the FATHER and the Son to each individual. We have that choice to come or not. None of the children was forced to this earth in obtaining a body of flesh.

As one could look into the past, it would reveal some startling facts about amount of those who choose Lucifer’s plan over the Savior. I am not talking about the third of the host who were thrown out due to rebelliousness but our other brothers and sisters, who number was greater than those who choose the Savior’s plan. It was through the love and the labours acts of the few, sought out to redeem them from following the third highest ranked Son of Morning into perdition.

It is their own agency that provided the path to this earth, whether it is the fortunes or misfortunes of life. It matters not. They have received a body of flesh and bones. They are still greater than them whom were casted out of GOD’s realm forever.

Is a billionaire more fortunate than an impoverish person? Nay! What did the Lord tell the rich man? What happen afterwards? This man did not gain any foot into the least kingdom of the Celestial Kingdom by his fortunate. Instead, he served mammoth more than GOD and in the end, will reap his just reward. Nor does this excuse those who choose the impoverish path of mortality from accepting the same gospel or seek to live a good life. Both have the agency to listen to the Spirit or Light of Christ, which is embedded in their souls.

Those who do not have the opportunity, whether rich or poor, whether living in the extreme location of this earth or not, will have the opportunity in the next life. This is where you will have the opportunity to teach them the Gospel. Your experience here and your knowledge learned, will be a path for them to accept the plan provided in the spirit world. You will be a blessing to them for eternality.

Now, be of a good cheer. Go forth and prepare the way of the Lord. Build the part of the Vineyard the Lord has provided for you.

This rings so true from everything I know.

There is so much in this post.

I have copied this down to study on later.

Thank you Hemidakota:)

Bro. Rudick

[JohnnyRudick]

Do you believe there were some who were so valiant that all they needed was a body?

If not, I'll have to look up the quotes.

If you do, where do they enter in your picture?

Why must the 3rd group be less valiant than "us?"

Why can't those who were so valiant that all they needed was a body be the 3rd group?

Jehova was speaking to the noble and great ones (I'm offering that it's speaking of the ones who only needed a body and would not need to actually "dwell" on earth)

Abraham 3:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

Doesn't this read like the "noble and great ones" were the 3rd group?

Could "these" (not noble and great ones) not be speaking about those (the 2nd group) who did not side with Lucifer, but wanted to come to earth and gain a body and be tested? Why can't this be seen as a "2nd" chance for those who needed to dwell on earth, or a test, instead of the ONLY way it could be done? Didn't the noble and great ones (those who did not need a body) already show us it *could have* been done in the pre-mortal existence? Don't we know it can be done in the post-mortal spirit world (physical ordinances by proxy)?

It seems some of the "noble and great ones" came to earth to fulfill specific missions, like Christ and Abraham. But, this reads as though most of the earth's population is not included in this same group.

What do you think?

Sure does look like it don't it.

Thanks Justice;)

Bro. Rudick

[Hemidakota]

In being a great one, looking at the patterns of dispensational prophets, then I need to be convert prior to be baptized into the kingdom, in experiencing both realm for my personal edification, which is the world and the gospel kingdom. Sorry...just punning Justice.

What is unique, and found not only in the bible, but also found in the Book of Mormon, also other current statements made, the few who received a book from either a angel or ministering spirit. :) SPECIFIC MISSIONS FOR THEM IN THIS LIFE OR AWAITS THEM

[Justice]

OK. Now read Alma 43 and 44... and you will see all 3 groups from the pre-mortal existence.

Nephites represent "us" or those who came to earth to gain a body and dwell here... engaged in the war. Captain Moroni is symbolic of Jehova.

Lamanites represent those who sided with Lucifer and did not gain a body, but came to earth to dwell. Zerahemnah is symbolic of Lucifer.

The third group? The anti-Nephi-Lehis... those who were under covenant not to take up their weapons of war. These already made and kept their covenants (it appears).

Interesting what is said of Zerahemnah:

Alma 43:

8 For behold, his designs were to stir up the Lamanites to anger against the Nephites; this he did that he might usurp great power over them, and also that he might gain power over the Nephites by bringing them into bondage.

He usurped great power over the "Lamanites" because those are the ones who willingly followed him. He sought to gain power over those that wouldn't follow him willingly, or the Nephites, or he wanted to remove our choice or agency.

What a powerful one-line statmenet of Satan and his purpose.

There are many, many gems buried in these verses. Here's another near the end of the war:

Alma 44:

12 And now when Moroni had said these words, Zerahemnah retained his sword, and he was angry with Moroni, and he rushed forward that he might slay Moroni; but as he raised his sword, behold, one of Moroni’s soldiers smote it even to the earth, and it broke by the hilt; and he also smote Zerahemnah that he took off his scalp and it fell to the earth. And Zerahemnah withdrew from before them into the midst of his soldiers.

As near as I can tell in the parallel, swords are words. Think about it while you read. Keep in mind who Moroni and Zerahemnah are symbolic of. Moroni's soldier has to be symbolic of Michael, the one who cast Lucifer from the spirit world to the earth without a body. His authority (hilt of his sword) was cast to earth... as was his scalp.

What could scalp represent? Well, the scalp is located on the crown of the head. I wonder what a crown would be symbolic of, and did Lucifer's fall to the earth?

Anyway, I'd be interested to see what others see in this war and how it relates to the war in heaven. I have found many, many parallels.