Faith Or Works? For Paul

[Serg]

Paul wanted to talk about this so here you go. This is about salvation viewed by lds theology, which in extract, says that in the Bible is taught that salvation comes through faith, and faith through works. This i quote from a post of mine, concerning Maureen's thoughts about salvation:

The act of confessing the Lord, does it save??? Its said: (Romans 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Now, it is a beautiful scripture but, do we understand it as we should? Lets see this: (Romans 10:16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Romans 10:17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Oh! so now it includes “obeying”, and this through FAITH, which comes from the very Word. The same Paul that also said: (1 Corinthians 7:19) Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Now as to confess: (Hebrews 13:15) By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. (Hebrews 13:16) But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. (Hebrews 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls...

Again : (2 John 1:7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (2 John 1:8) Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

And again: (1 John 3:23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.(1 John 4:14) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

* So as we see, confessing the Lord’s name is to praise HIM, to obey HIM and to PROCLAIM HIM as our King and Saviour. There’s nothing bad with “confessing Jesus as our personal Saviour” , what is deceiving is to believe that by only that we are saved.

Jesus said: (Matthew 23:2) “ The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (Matthew 23:3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.” This for those who say we have no similar law or any law at all, as Paul said: (1 Corinthians 9:20) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (1 Corinthians 9:21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. So what is it, FAITH OR WORKS that saves?

(Hebrews 11:33) Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,... So in some way, righteousness comes TROUGH FAITH but is WROUGHT also, how? why? Cause “FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD”. The only way to give something, is having it. The only way to let know you have something is by someway SHOWING IT. For also is said: (2 Corinthians 8:12) “For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.”

Please watch this : (2 Timothy 1:9) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, (2 Timothy 1:10) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:” Wow, this is Paul. Note quickly that says that He SAVED us(in past) and now relate that part with the part later saying Jesus’s grace before the world began, and that one with Peter’s and John’s saying of Christ as the Lamb sacrified before the world was... And now see this, does it say that we are NOT saved by works? No, closely says that our CALLING was not by works, this means, the oportunity, the possibility, the effort of God himself to save us is NOT by our works for he died for ALL, whether sinner or righteous, BUT the “life and immortality to light” was brought TROUGH the GOSPEL, as Peter said : (1 Peter 1:22) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: so there’s no much to say, letalone what the 5th verse says: (1 Peter 1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

So His call is by grace and even the salvation in the last time to be revealed but it requires obedience, why? Cause it requires a NEW person, as also said: (1 Peter 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. So the hope comes from the faith, and the obidience too, and these take us to be participants of the glory of God, not His grace, for if it were by works, then its not by grace, but its by grace, so God can be all in all.

As Paul also said: (Ephesians 2:8) “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (1 John 5:3)

Oh! So by grace we in fact are saved, yes, not of ourselves, for NONE of us deserved His sacrifice, but its given the opportunity to all, and saved by FAITH, which one? That which has works, that which WALKS IN THE GOOD WORKS GOD ORDAINED BEFORE. But there is also the conclusion of all this said here: (1 Corinthians 13:13) And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity(love).

(1 John 5:1) “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (1 John 5:2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. (1 John 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (1 John 5:4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” .

To live with God, we ought to be like Him....(and it does’nt come through the statement of a sentence, LOL)

“Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of His steps.”(Psalms 85:13)

Best regards,

[applecore]

Originally posted by Serg@Nov 16 2005, 12:20 PM

Paul wanted to talk about this so here you go.  This is about salvation viewed by lds theology, which in extract, says that in the Bible is taught that salvation comes through faith, and faith through works. This i quote from a post of mine, concerning Maureen's thoughts about salvation:

The act of confessing the Lord, does it save??? Its said: (Romans 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Now, it is a beautiful scripture but, do we understand it as we should? Lets see this: (Romans 10:16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Romans 10:17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Oh! so now it includes “obeying”, and this through FAITH, which comes from the very Word. The same Paul that also said: (1 Corinthians 7:19) Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Now as to confess: (Hebrews 13:15) By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. (Hebrews 13:16) But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. (Hebrews 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls...

Again : (2 John 1:7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (2 John 1:8) Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

And again: (1 John 3:23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.(1 John 4:14) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

* So as we see, confessing the Lord’s name is to praise HIM, to obey HIM and to PROCLAIM HIM as our King and Saviour. There’s nothing bad with “confessing Jesus as our personal Saviour” , what is deceiving is to believe that by only that we are saved.

Jesus said: (Matthew 23:2) “ The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (Matthew 23:3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.” This for those who say we have no similar law or any law at all, as Paul said: (1 Corinthians 9:20) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (1 Corinthians 9:21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. So what is it, FAITH OR WORKS that saves?

(Hebrews 11:33) Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,... So in some way, righteousness comes TROUGH FAITH but is WROUGHT also, how? why? Cause “FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD”. The only way to give something, is having it. The only way to let know you have something is by someway SHOWING IT. For also is said: (2 Corinthians 8:12) “For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.”

Please watch this : (2 Timothy 1:9) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, (2 Timothy 1:10) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:” Wow, this is Paul. Note quickly that says that He SAVED us(in past) and now relate that part with the part later saying Jesus’s grace before the world began, and that one with Peter’s and John’s saying of Christ as the Lamb sacrified before the world was... And now see this, does it say that we are NOT saved by works? No, closely says that our CALLING was not by works, this means, the oportunity, the possibility, the effort of God himself to save us is NOT by our works for he died for ALL, whether sinner or righteous, BUT the “life and immortality to light” was brought TROUGH the GOSPEL, as Peter said : (1 Peter 1:22) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: so there’s no much to say, letalone what the 5th verse says: (1 Peter 1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

So His call is by grace and even the salvation in the last time to be revealed but it requires obedience, why? Cause it requires a NEW person, as also said: (1 Peter 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. So the hope comes from the faith, and the obidience too, and these take us to be participants of the glory of God, not His grace, for if it were by works, then its not by grace, but its by grace, so God can be all in all.

As Paul also said: (Ephesians 2:8) “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (1 John 5:3)

Oh! So by grace we in fact are saved, yes, not of ourselves, for NONE of us deserved His sacrifice, but its given the opportunity to all, and saved by FAITH, which one? That which has works, that which WALKS IN THE GOOD WORKS GOD ORDAINED BEFORE. But there is also the conclusion of all this said here: (1 Corinthians 13:13) And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity(love).

(1 John 5:1) “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (1 John 5:2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. (1 John 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (1 John 5:4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” .

To live with God, we ought to be like Him....(and it does’nt come through the statement of a sentence, LOL)

“Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of His steps.”(Psalms 85:13)

Best regards,

←

Sorry, I missed the point you were trying to make. You quoted multiple scriptures but please condense it so I can understand. What's the bottom line?

[livy111us]

Originally posted by Serg@Nov 16 2005, 12:20 PM

Paul wanted to talk about this so here you go.  This is about salvation viewed by lds theology, which in extract, says that in the Bible is taught that salvation comes through faith, and faith through works. This i quote from a post of mine, concerning Maureen's thoughts about salvation:

The act of confessing the Lord, does it save??? Its said: (Romans 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Now, it is a beautiful scripture but, do we understand it as we should? Lets see this: (Romans 10:16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Romans 10:17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Oh! so now it includes “obeying”, and this through FAITH, which comes from the very Word. The same Paul that also said: (1 Corinthians 7:19) Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Now as to confess: (Hebrews 13:15) By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. (Hebrews 13:16) But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. (Hebrews 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls...

Again : (2 John 1:7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (2 John 1:8) Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

And again: (1 John 3:23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.(1 John 4:14) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

* So as we see, confessing the Lord’s name is to praise HIM, to obey HIM and to PROCLAIM HIM as our King and Saviour. There’s nothing bad with “confessing Jesus as our personal Saviour” , what is deceiving is to believe that by only that we are saved.

Jesus said: (Matthew 23:2) “ The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (Matthew 23:3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.” This for those who say we have no similar law or any law at all, as Paul said: (1 Corinthians 9:20) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (1 Corinthians 9:21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. So what is it, FAITH OR WORKS that saves?

(Hebrews 11:33) Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,... So in some way, righteousness comes TROUGH FAITH but is WROUGHT also, how? why? Cause “FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD”. The only way to give something, is having it. The only way to let know you have something is by someway SHOWING IT. For also is said: (2 Corinthians 8:12) “For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.”

Please watch this : (2 Timothy 1:9) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, (2 Timothy 1:10) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:” Wow, this is Paul. Note quickly that says that He SAVED us(in past) and now relate that part with the part later saying Jesus’s grace before the world began, and that one with Peter’s and John’s saying of Christ as the Lamb sacrified before the world was... And now see this, does it say that we are NOT saved by works? No, closely says that our CALLING was not by works, this means, the oportunity, the possibility, the effort of God himself to save us is NOT by our works for he died for ALL, whether sinner or righteous, BUT the “life and immortality to light” was brought TROUGH the GOSPEL, as Peter said : (1 Peter 1:22) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: so there’s no much to say, letalone what the 5th verse says: (1 Peter 1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

So His call is by grace and even the salvation in the last time to be revealed but it requires obedience, why? Cause it requires a NEW person, as also said: (1 Peter 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. So the hope comes from the faith, and the obidience too, and these take us to be participants of the glory of God, not His grace, for if it were by works, then its not by grace, but its by grace, so God can be all in all.

As Paul also said: (Ephesians 2:8) “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (1 John 5:3)

Oh! So by grace we in fact are saved, yes, not of ourselves, for NONE of us deserved His sacrifice, but its given the opportunity to all, and saved by FAITH, which one? That which has works, that which WALKS IN THE GOOD WORKS GOD ORDAINED BEFORE. But there is also the conclusion of all this said here: (1 Corinthians 13:13) And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity(love).

(1 John 5:1) “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (1 John 5:2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. (1 John 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (1 John 5:4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” .

To live with God, we ought to be like Him....(and it does’nt come through the statement of a sentence, LOL)

“Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of His steps.”(Psalms 85:13)

Best regards,

←

I think C.S. Lewis said it best when he said 'which blade is more important in a pair of scissors?' they both work together to do the job. Same with salvation. You can't have faith and works seperate. Many people believe in just a belief only salvation. However, this belief didn't fully arise until Martin Luther (1483-1546). So we must ask, if this truly was the way to salvation, where was it for 1500 years? There are 2 options. One, there was an apostasy. Two, the doctrine did not exist until one and a half millenia later. I believe the latter is the best answer.

Justin Martyr (100-165 A.D.), the great early Christian apologist said “And let those who are not found living as He taught, be understood to be no Christians, even though they profess with the lip the precepts of Christ; for not those who make profession, but those who do the works, shall be saved, according to His word: ‘Not every one who saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven...’And as to those who are not living pursuant to these His teachings, and are Christians only in name, we demand that all such be punished by you”. (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:168, chap. 16, First Apology of Justin)

From this and many more (including Irenaeus, Clement and others) that would be to lengthy to quote, show that salvation by just grace alone was non-existent, even in the post-Apostolic Church.

We also must remember, to whom was Paul writing to in his epistles? Was it non-member pagans? No, of course not. He was writing to members of the Church who had been baptized, and were taught correct principles of the Gospel. But what was taught to non-members? We can find out in Acts 2:37-38.

The Bible is also clear on the pre-requisites on salvation. It says that we are saved by:

--Abstaining from fornication, idolatry, adultery, stealing, coveting, drinking, reviling, and

extortion--1 Cor. 6:9-10

--Abstaining from fornication--2 Thess. 4:3 + Mat. 7:21

--Baptism-Mark 16:16, 1 Pet. 3:21, Heb. 6:2 + 1 Tim. 4:16

--Become as a little child--Mat. 18:3

--Belief-- Acts 16:31

--Belief and confession-- Rom. 10:9

--Belonging to His church--Acts 2:47

--Bring forth good fruit– Matthew 7:16-20

--Calling on the name of the Lord-- Rom. 10:13 + Acts 22:16

--Endure until the end--Mat. 24:13, Mat. 10:22, Mark 13:13, Rom. 2:6-8, Rev. 2:26, 2 Tim. 4:7-8

(notice the words fought, finished, and kept)

--Engrafted word--James 1:21

--Faith-- 1 Pet. 1:5, Heb. 11:1, Rom. 8:24

--Faith and scriptures-- 2 Tim. 3:16 + Heb. 6:2

--Foolishness of preaching-- 1 Cor. 1:21

--Gospel--1 Cor. 15:1-2

--Grace-- Eph. 2:8

--Hope not seen-- Rom. 8:24

--Keeping the commandments-- 1 John 4:7,5:3, Mat. 19:17

--Know God and Christ--John 17:3

--Love of truth--2 Thes. 2:10

--Must be morally clean--Eph. 5:5

--Name of Christ-- Acts 4:12

--Obedience-- 2 Thess. 1:8, Heb. 5:9, 1 Pet. 4:17, 1 Tim. 4:16, John 17:3 +1 John 2:3

--Overcoming the world--Rev. 3:21

--Repentance-- 2 Cor. 7:10

--Washing of regeneration-- Titus 3:5

--Yourself and fear--Phil. 2:12 why? Heb. 4:1

I believe when we read all the salvation scriptures from the Bible, we can truly find out what we need to do in order to be saved.

I don't want to seem to focused on works, because I'm not. I just want people to understand that it is not by faith alone. And on the other hand, it is not by works alone. James said that faith without works is dead. He would have been just as justified as saying that works without faith is dead. It doesn't' matter how much we do, without Christ, we would not be able to return to our father in heaven.

[email protected]

[Snow]

Originally posted by livy111us@Nov 16 2005, 06:38 PM

The Bible is also clear on the pre-requisites on salvation. It says that we are saved by:

--Abstaining from fornication--2 Thess. 4:3 + Mat. 7:21

-

←

Have the Jehovah Witnesses been messing with my bible again? Mine doesn't go up to 2 Thess 4:3.

[livy111us]

Originally posted by Snow+Nov 16 2005, 09:19 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-livy111us@Nov 16 2005, 06:38 PM

The Bible is also clear on the pre-requisites on salvation. It says that we are saved by:

--Abstaining from fornication--2 Thess. 4:3 + Mat. 7:21

-

←

Have the Jehovah Witnesses been messing with my bible again? Mine doesn't go up to 2 Thess 4:3.

←

Lol, 2 Thess. 4:3 is right between to 2 Jacob, and D/C 142.

Good eye! The correct scripture is 1 Thess. 4:3

[paul6150]

Originally posted by livy111us+Nov 16 2005, 09:40 PM-->

Originally posted by Snow@Nov 16 2005, 09:19 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-livy111us@Nov 16 2005, 06:38 PM

The Bible is also clear on the pre-requisites on salvation. It says that we are saved by:

--Abstaining from fornication--2 Thess. 4:3 + Mat. 7:21

-

←

Have the Jehovah Witnesses been messing with my bible again? Mine doesn't go up to 2 Thess 4:3.

←

Lol, 2 Thess. 4:3 is right between to 2 Jacob, and D/C 142.

Good eye! The correct scripture is 1 Thess. 4:3

←

DIDN'T SEE THIS TOPIC OPEN UP RIGHT AWAY. NOW THAT IT IS OPEN I WILL ADD WHAT I BELIEVE THE BIBLE REALLY IS SAYING ABOUT FAITH AND ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH WORKS.

I TOO GOT LOST IN THE SIMPLE QUOTATION OF ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES IN THE FIRST POST ALTHOUGH THEY ARE VERY IMPORTANT SCRIPTURES SERG DID NOT COUPLE THE IDEAS TOGETHER NOR WAS THERE ANY COMPARISON MADE TO LDS THEOLOGY ON THE SUBJECT.

HERE IS SOME OF MY THOUGHTS AND SOME COMMENTATORS DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THIS TOPIC.

SAVED BY GRACE

The Bible, in Ephesians 2:8-10 states: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (NAS).

Romans 3:21-24, also states, “But now apart, from the Law, the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed (attested by) the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (NAS - emphasis by me).

As noted in these two, and many other Bible passages, the Bible’s message is very emphatic that salvation and our assurance of entering heaven comes as a free gift from God. We cannot earn it, nor do we earn merits, which are applied to an invisible heavenly bank account, for our good behavior as some believe. The reason for this is that no matter how good, our good works, they are still not good enough to satisfy the stringent requirements of God’s law and satisfy His requirements for complete righteousness with perfect holiness (Isaiah 64:6-8).

We know that much of the message that clearly defines salvation by His grace is presented in the New Testament; however, the Old Testament in numerous accounts portrays the “saved by grace not by works message.” Just to mention a few Old Testament passages that relate this message, this author recommends one read: Genesis 32:10, Psalm 51:16-17, Isaiah 1:16-20, Isaiah 61:10, Daniel 9:18-19 and Zechariah 3:3-7.

Throughout, the Bible, salvation is presented not as some special achievement of man for the good things he has done, but as an undeserved act of God upon totally sinful man. Salvation, defined another way, is not the culmination of man’s search for God, but instead, God’s initiative towards man. “God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” Romans 5:8 (NAS). “Before we ever thought about Him, He thought about us. God’s love doesn’t measure worth or works before you are acceptable to Him.

Additional New Testament passages that describe God’s move toward us can be found in, John 3:16-17 and 3:27; John 6:44; Galatians 3:24-26 and 4:5-7; 2 Timothy 1:8-9; Titus 2:11-13 and 3:4-7; James 1:17-18, etc.

The Bible also goes so far as to say that believers are not only saved by His grace and mercy, but that they are also kept by His grace (John 17:11; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5).

Martin Luther stated “Man on his own cannot prepare himself in the slightest for the reception of the gift of God. The natural man is not in a quest for God, but in flight from God.”2 Luther also said, “Because of sin within man, his works will always fall short of the righteousness that God demands. Even our works after conversion cannot merit God’s forgiveness, they can only attest and proclaim Jesus Christ alone is our righteousness not our own works.”3.

Philippians 4:13 states “I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.” The key words of this passage are “through Christ” who is the source of our strength. Before we can find the peace God provides we must first recognize that we have very little strength to accomplish what is required of us by our God. Micah 6:8, Deuteronomy 6:5 and 10:12-13.

The Apostle Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 12:10 “Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then I am strong.” The Lord told Paul in verse 9 of this same chapter “my grace is sufficient for thee for my strength is made perfect in weakness”. In the act of salvation, man is to be regarded as helpless to save himself but, through Christ’s victory, the believer becomes an overcomer and a conqueror (Romans 8:37) when the Holy Spirit indwells him and gives him power from on high. See also these passages: 1 Corinthians 15:10; Colossians 1:29; Philippians 2:12-13 and Revelations 12:10-11.

Martin Luther was correct in his summary that good works are not what makes up grace, but instead grace is the very source of good works. “For works do not drive out sin but the driving out of sin leads to good works.”4

FAITH ALONE

Before Saul of Tarsus became a Christian, he was a strong believer in obedience to the law which was the way, he believed at that time, to get closer to God. However, after his conversion he recognized that it was by God’s grace and faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 9:16 even emphasizes the Apostle Paul’s strong belief that our faith is also a gift of God. Man’s ability to respond to God’s call “depends not upon mans will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.”5

The Bible also declares that Jesus is not only the author of our faith, but also the finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2; John 10:28). Consider the statement by William Gurnall, a 17th - century English Puritan preacher, regarding Hebrews 12:2, “God is at the bottom of the ladder, and at the top also, the Author and Finisher, assisting the soul at every rung in its ascent to any holy action. And once we have begun a work, how long will we stick to it? Only as long as we are held up by the same hand that empowered us at first. We quickly deplete the strength He gives us. So to maintain the permanence of a holy course, we must have a renewing strength from heaven every moment.”6

“Luther distinguished between the ‘faith which believes what is said of God is true’ and ‘the faith which throws itself on God.’ It is the latter which is the true saving faith, though such faith will certainly entail a right understanding of the meaning of the cross.”7

It must be fully understood that faith is not just a simple decision, but also more so a complete surrender to Christ. One must be convinced that God’s word is true, on this matter of faith, even if the whole world should disagree with them. Martin Luther warned, “You should not believe your conscience and your feelings more than the word which the Lord who receives sinners preaches to you.”8 And again, “This is real strength to trust in God when to all our senses and reason He appears to be angry; and to have greater confidence in Him than we feel”9.

Joshua 3:15-4:24, describes this type of faith. The Levite priests that bore the ark of the covenant had to be standing in the floodwaters of the Jordan River before the waters parted and “the Israelites passed over on dry ground” and had to remain there until all the Israelites had passed through on dry ground.

“We are not only justified by faith alone, but we must also walk by faith alone. The man of faith clings to the promises of Christ in Scripture even though he may not have a direct awareness of the divine presence. He ventures forth without any outward security even though he may not understand the direction in which God is leading him. He ventures forth sometimes against all logic and reason out of fidelity to the inward call that comes to him from God. His believing is a joyous daring upon the unknown and untried goodness of God. (Luther).”10. The same applies to Gods grace, His gift of faith is renewed, in us, as we look to Christ and throw ourselves on His mercy, even though our flesh and heart may fail us, we still press on to victory in Christ knowing that God’s promises will never fail (Psalm 73:26).

“The Epistle of James presents some difficulty, since it is expressly stated that ‘a man is justified by works and not by faith alone’ (James 2:24). However, James is speaking of faith as intellectual assent, not faith as the commitment of the whole person to the living Christ (as in Paul’s writings). Moreover, he is referring not to the works of the law (which preoccupy Paul) but to the fruits of faith. Our justification is exhibited and carried forward by the practice of our faith, though its ground or basis is in the free mercy of God.”11

2 Martin Luther, W.A. 12, 497. cf: As cited by Donald G. Bloesch in Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Volume 1, page 193.

3 Luther’s works, Volume 34, page 113.

4 Luther’s Works, Volume 35, page 10.

5 Donald G. Bloesch in Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Volume 1, page 182.

6 William Gurnall, The Christian In Complete Armour, Abridged by Ruthanne Garlock, et al, The Banner of Truth Trust. Copyright 1986, Volume 1, page 34-35.

7 As cited by Donald G. Bloesch in Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Volume 1, page 224.

8 Martin Luther, W.A., Volume 27, page 223.

9 Martin Luther, Treatise on Good Works in Works of Martin Luther (Philadelphia: A.J. Hollman, 1915), Volume 1, Page 192.

10 Martin Luther, “Sermon on July 25, 1522,” W.A., 10 III, 239.

11 Donald G. Bloesch in Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Volume 1, Page 228.

[livy111us]

I concur with what Paul [the former post] said about works. As recorded earlier, works mean nothing without Jesus Christ. However, I was a little confused about his own beliefs. Does he believe in faith alone for salvation?

[Serg]

Paul does believe such a thing, salvation only through the grace of Jesus, and confessing His name.

Now as to my ïncoherent"post , every scripture quoted goes to whether works werent important as to salvation for the primitive Church.

The first ones go to establish tha connection between "confessing"the Lord's Name, and Preacvhing it, more than a ritual to get saved.

The middle ones are commentaries in understanding ephesians statement of grace, and our "calling"but the works God foreordained for us to walk in.

The last ones go to set the difference of whether faith is more important than love. And the scriptures there show that love is more important and is because there is no greater proof of love than obeying and sacrificing. So by this love we are born again, unto good fruits, acceptable to the Lord, for the salvatione ready to be revealed in the last times, as Peter said.

The last remark goes to state that the whole process of rebirth and new coincience, does not come through the statement of a sentence(this is to only say: I accept Jesus as my saviour), but it comes ALSO by the works that are derived from such a lifetime conviction.

Regards...

[paul6150]

Originally posted by Serg@Nov 17 2005, 10:03 AM

Paul does believe such a thing, salvation only through the grace of Jesus, and confessing His name.

          Now as to my ïncoherent"post , every scripture quoted goes to whether works werent important as to salvation for the primitive Church.

    The first ones go to establish tha connection between "confessing"the Lord's Name, and Preacvhing it, more than a ritual to get saved.

    The middle ones are commentaries in understanding ephesians statement of grace, and our "calling"but the works God foreordained for us to walk in.

    The last ones go to set the difference of whether faith is more important than love. And the scriptures there show that love is more important and is because there is no greater proof of love than obeying and sacrificing. So by this love we are born again, unto good fruits, acceptable to the Lord, for the salvatione ready to be revealed in the last times, as Peter said.

 

The last remark goes to state that the whole process of rebirth and new coincience, does not come through the statement of a sentence(this is to only say: I accept Jesus as my saviour), but it comes  ALSO by the works that are derived from such a lifetime conviction.

Regards...

←

Serg

You are right about my belief that I am saved by what Jesus did on the cross and I simply believe (John 3:18) in Jesus' completed work - the "perfect sacrifice" offered for the sins of the world. And you are right that it is also about love. For John 3:16 says that God so loved the world..." and as 1 Corinthians 13 says that we can have all the faith and works in the world yet if we don't have love then they amount to nothing. This leads me to an understanding that if my motives, when I do "works" is not for the glory of God then it is nothing more than filthy rags (Isa. 64:6). So in the whole salvation process it is all about what Jesus did and nothing about what we do (our works). Yes once saved we will be asked by God to step out into uncomfortable areas by faith but the faith we need is supplied by God. He through the power of the Holy Spirit gives us this faith. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22).

I disagree with what you say about the first set of verses you quoted in your incoherent post. These verses (some of which I have quoted in my previous post) are about confessing before others that I believe in the Lord Jesus and what He did for me and the fact that He died for my sins. It is not about preaching. One who is called to preach or teach does so because they are first saved by Jesus and they do what God directs them to do by the unction of the Holy Spirit. Again those who are truely called by God to preach are doing that work by the power of the Holy Spirit "...as the Spirit enabled them..." Acts 2:4.. You mention the "ritual to get saved" in your post. It only becomes a ritual if you truely don't mean what you are speaking. Romans 10:10 says "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." So if you don't believe in the Lord Jesus and what He did for you "in your heart" then the words are meaningless. Again "works - speaking with your mouth" without "faith - in your heart" is nothing more than words. It doesn't matter what words you pray to admit you are a sinner in need of a Savior but rather they be what you feel in your heart. For God looks upon the heart not on what we do.

I also disagree with what you say about the second set of verses you quoted. Ephesians 2:8-10 says "...we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus...". If you look up the Greek for the word "workmanship" you will find the Greek word "poem'ea" which is also the root word for poem. We are God's poem or His masterpiece "created in Christ Jesus" to accomplish the works that He had prepared for us from the beginning of time. Again it is not about us but it is about what Jesus did.

As I said before love is more important than faith, however love (real love in the Biblical sense) springs out of the love relationship of Jesus with the Father in that He chose to be obedient to the Father even to death on the cross (Hebrews 12:2). It is out of that love that God has for us (John 3:16) that we can love others and be willing to sacrifice ourselves for others. Remember also that "love" is also a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22).

In summary I again say it is not about what we do but about what Jesus did. David in Psalm 51 states it this way "You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; You do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God, are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart. O God you will not despise."

Till later posting

Paul

[livy111us]

Paul, we know that Christ is central in gaining salvation. No one is arguing that. What I am curious about is our role. In your opinion, once the prayer is said, is all done? Is it necessary to, what we say, endure to the end?

[paul6150]

Originally posted by livy111us@Nov 17 2005, 01:59 PM

Paul, we know that Christ is central in gaining salvation. No one is arguing that. What I am curious about is our role. In your opinion, once the prayer is said, is all done? Is it necessary to, what we say, endure to the end?

←

livy111us

Yes Christ is central to salvation but the Bible goes even further in that it is saying that in the enduring part we must be dependent on God to give us grace and strength to continue. I don't know how your days go but there are many temptations each and every hour of every day that I must either: 1) call on Jesus for help to endure the attack from Satan or the flesh; 2) fall into the temptation and sin; and 3) call on Jesus to forgive for my failure to be obedient. In each of these options God's grace has to be there.

For example under option 1) it is the power of the Holy Spirit and the power of the Blood of the Lamb that helps us resist. Two scriptures that come to mind are: James 4:7 "Submit yourselves, then to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." NOTE what James said in 4:1 - 4:6. He mentions they were fighting and quarreling, killing and coveting, asking but not receiving from God because they were asking from the wrong motives, they were friends with the world and so on. In other words they were falling into temptation. What does James say we need to do -- Submit to God for if we don't submit to Him we cannot resist the devil or if we try he will not flee. But the saint who is submitted to God cannot be touched unless for some reason God allows Satan room to manuever in our lives such as in the case of Job. Revelation 7:14 "...they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Another scripture comes to mind "they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony" but I can't find the Bible address right now.

Under option 2) it is the power of grace (unmerited favor) and the wooing of the Holy Spirit that convince us we must repent and be washed anew. Jesus said to Peter when he refused to have his feet washed "...unless I wash you; you have no part of with me." Referring of course to the salvation process. Then Peter wanted to be totally washed. Jesus declared that once you are washed (believe in Jesus) you have no need for another major washing but you still get dirty and need the feet washed. This is a strong statment that after salvation we still need to be forgiven of the sins we commit but that we still retain our salvation. Can't lose our salvation as described many times in the BOM.

And finally under option 3) it is God's grace that once again cleanses us when we confess our sin to Him.

In my previous post I noted what Martin Luther said about the type of faith where we fall upon Jesus in total surrender. This is the kind of faith that endures to the end. If we base our endurance on our ability to pull up our "bootstraps" and struggle through life then we will not have the type of joy that Jesus says we will have. Jesus said "My yoke is easy and My burden is light". How can He say that if it is not Him who is helping us to endure to the end.

So in closing it is still all about Him. To Him be all the glory, power and honor forever and ever.

I hope that answers that question.

Paul

[livy111us]

Paul, then I totally agree with you on your view of salvation. It lines up exactly with what we teach. As I spoke about before, the Bible is clear on salvation, however, many mis-understand it. They tend to take just a few scriptures from the Apostle Paul to define salvation, and leave out the may others that I previously cited. I believe that we truly must follow the Savior, not only in word, but deed also.

[USNationalist]

So... all of your posts were to long for me to want to read. So let me give you the skinny on salvation.

Its really sort of a math problem... We are saved by grace alone... So the grace is the only thing that saves us. But the only way we get the grace is with faith. So, Grace X Faith = Salvation. Only thing is, Faith without works is dead. If you have no works- you have Dead Faith- which equals zero. Grace X Dead Faith = Zero Salvation. With works you have Faith which equals one.... which equals salvation. Your faith does not contribute any numerical value to your salvation, Grace has the same numerical value as Salvation (Grace = Salvation).

So...

Grace X Faith = Salvation

Grace X Dead Faith = Zero Salvation

Consider yourselves enlightend. heh

[Lindy]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Nov 17 2005, 10:00 PM

So...

Grace X Faith = Salvation

Grace X Dead Faith = Zero Salvation

Consider yourselves enlightend. heh

←

LOL

HEY USN!

Welcome back!

:)

Edited: I know better than to debate with ya over this...

[USNationalist]

hello lindy. I dont know how long i will be around... we will see.

I was begging to wonder if you still came around here.

[Ray]

I heard a man give a good talk on BYU-TV the other day (can’t remember his name) and he used some imagery which I thought was fairly interesting. I’ll try to share what he said in my own words, while trying to be accurate with the idea he was trying to convey.

This man showed a picture of a bridge going over a wide and deep chasm somewhere, I think in Zion National Park, and talked about how he had just walked across it, while noticing that other people were crossing it too. He then talked about an idea, helping him to realize that before that bridge was built, there was no way for a person to get over that chasm while carrying very much of a load.

And how now that the bridge is built, it seems fairly easy for someone to cross the chasm, if they will use the bridge and not carry any more than they can handle, although some people don’t realize that it seems easy only because that bridge is now there.

Or in other words, some people now have the idea that it’s very easy to cross that chasm, because they only think about how easy it is to walk across that bridge, without thinking about how difficult it would be if that bridge was not there.

And getting across that chasm still requires the effort that it takes to make use of that bridge. Or in other words, just knowing about the bridge, or knowing that the bridge will get us to the other side, will not get us to the other side, because to get to the other side we must walk across that bridge with faith that it will get us to the other side.

He also said that while we might be able to imagine other ways to cross that chasm, by using things that fly, for instance, still, without someone providing that means to cross the chasm, a person would still be left with only what they could do by themselves, and still face a very difficult challenge with no real hope of being able to make it.

And btw, this man was not only talking about how much we needed our Savior to build the bridge, or airplane, or whatever else you might imagine, but how we also need to work together to help other people know about the means and how to use those means the Lord has provided to help get us across the chasm.

Anyway, take from that what you will. Personally, I thought it was a very good way of trying to explain it.

[Serg]

Yes i agree that Jesus is the center of salvation.

Oh He is! But He said that all who were "worked up" and tired to come to him, and most would see that as : oh we go to him and He takes ALL our works on Him, he did all the necessary for us to be saved! But did Jesus say such a thing? He said "take thy cross" and also "take mine" and "learn from me that i'm humble"....

Jesus did take all our sins in the cross, he saved us. BUT, it matters not what He did if we do nothing. We've been call to live up to His sacrifice, for, what are all those commandments of the gospel for if not necessary or if not of law? For Paul said that we are under the law of Christ, which one? The law of liberty(taken by Timothy), and as Peter also said we are free, but not free to do evil works but to do the good ones. "the only commandment given in the NT was to love" you may say, or also "the only commandment or "work"by which people are to be judged is if they accepted Him as saviour", but is that so?

First:

If that was the only commandment, why does every apostle in the NT mentions "commandments" in plural? Or works? instead of "work"?

Why does the arc of the pact of israel which contains the 10 comm. , the manah and the stick of Aaron appeared in the second coming of Jesus(Apoc.)? For Paul verily says that Jesus killed the "law of rituals, and commandments expressed in ordinances"in the cross. Which rituals? The mosaic ones. Which ordinances? The mosaic ones.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high a time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Romans 13

So here we se that the commandments are not eradicated, even the whole ten, for when we say that they are fulfilled in "love", is because one who loves simply lives up to His ways, and obeys, but through faith, for the jews spoke and did nothing, and learned but had not faith nor love.

We also have this concerning the law:

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom.7

So its not the law which is evil, but our predisposition to not fulfill it. Law is good, but the mosaic law was not, why? The same God that gave the jews such law also gave us Christ, so why? Because that people were very carnal(not that we are not), and very needy of such an external expression of an internal conversion.

Also , when treating the concept of the sabbath of the christians, which, would be nonsense to prove wrong, for you would have to be blind as not to see the big evidence on early christian writings and the begining of the catholic church and the whole emperor idea...but well, later.. But the scripture says: 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holiday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days...

Gal.2:15-16

Ans by this we may conclude that all ordinances were taken away, and all commandments too, but its not so. Also about the sabbath is written:

4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Hebrews 4:4-10

So watch the phrase of :"For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day" ...

and now see this: 27 "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man," Mark. 2:27

Well, it certainly doesnt say for the people of Israel, but for the whole concept of "MAN".

When Jesus was speaking of the final judgements for earth, He said: 20 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"

Matt.24:20

If he was talking with His disciples, and He had "ended" the practice of the sabbath, He would have never advised them not to 'fly in winter or in the sabbath" for at such time(end of the world) the sabbath would "not be established", but it is! And thats why e tells that to His disciples. Even if He only refered to the tribulation of the jews and the roman empire, still, christians would have not been subjected to such a day, and it would be incoherent to advise them, but He did because such day would never be ended, but it would be given "another day", this is sunday.

Paul said: Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

So here we see that eternal life comes by a patient continuance of "well doing", which "well doing"? Following Christ. How? Loving Him. How? Keeping His commandments(Jhn.14:15).

We enter His peace when we render our lives to His Will.

Paul:

We agree that when we "accept" Christ the holy Spirit enters, and gives us a testimony of His grace, and we begin to be born again, when we get baptize we receive "the remission of all our sins" and the Spirit enters as a gift to sanctify us, and hence are clean before His eyes!

What we dont believe is that we are assured the eternal life just because of that. For we will not be getting baptize every day, nor will die right after doing it the first time, but will continue to live and be EXPOSED to sin. Here the BoM teaches us that His grace saves us right away by accepting Him, from our sins, but not IN our sins. This means, we are assured that through His sacrifice we can repent and be clean before his eyes, but obedience seals that up until the end of our lives, other way , why the people "fall from grace"IF THE WERE ALREADY SAVED? bECAUSE THEY WERE NOT, As long as we are in mortality we are ABSENT from eternal life, is after our death and resurrection that we will attain such a gift.

Our task is as king Benjamin said in the BoM, to "retain the remission of our sins"through out our whole life, so we KEEP ourselves righteous before His eyes. That is salvation, i mean, eternal life. We believe that by grace we are saved, for anyways without Jesus, doing good deeds will be meaningless, but with Him, we dont make void the good deeds we are supposed to do.

Moses 6: 60

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood(His) ye are sanctified;

Regards,

[paul6150]

Originally posted by livy111us@Nov 17 2005, 06:23 PM

Paul, then I totally agree with you on your view of salvation. It lines up exactly with what we teach. As I spoke about before, the Bible is clear on salvation, however, many mis-understand it. They tend to take just a few scriptures from the Apostle Paul to define salvation, and leave out the may others that I previously cited. I believe that we truly must follow the Savior, not only in word, but deed also.

←

livy111us

You apparently agree that salvation is totally about what God does and that it lines up with "what we teach". Not that I want to disagree with someone that seems to be agreeing with me but if I remember your bio-info says you are a member of the LDS. If that is true then how do you line up the teachings in the BOM and the D of C with the message of the Bible? The BOM clearly teaches a "works message" sometimes intermixed with the grace message. It can't be both ways. Either it is by grace or it is by works not both. Works, in the Biblical sense comes out of the outpouring of God's grace through those who believe in the Lord Jesus but the BOM emphasizes a "works message".

So how do you justify your stance on salvation?

Paul

[livy111us]

Paul, then I totally agree with you on your view of salvation. It lines up exactly with what we teach. As I spoke about before, the Bible is clear on salvation, however, many mis-understand it. They tend to take just a few scriptures from the Apostle Paul to define salvation, and leave out the may others that I previously cited. I believe that we truly must follow the Savior, not only in word, but deed also.

←

livy111us

You apparently agree that salvation is totally about what God does and that it lines up with "what we teach". Not that I want to disagree with someone that seems to be agreeing with me but if I remember your bio-info says you are a member of the LDS. If that is true then how do you line up the teachings in the BOM and the D of C with the message of the Bible? The BOM clearly teaches a "works message" sometimes intermixed with the grace message. It can't be both ways. Either it is by grace or it is by works not both. Works, in the Biblical sense comes out of the outpouring of God's grace through those who believe in the Lord Jesus but the BOM emphasizes a "works message".

So how do you justify your stance on salvation?

Paul, I am now a little confused. You say that we cannot be saved by Grace if we are saved by works, and vice versa. A point may have been missed. As I said earlier, it doesn't matter how much we do, how many times we read the Scriptures, and do good to others, without Christ, we could not enter into heaven. However, once we have accepted Christ, we must follow Him. It would mean nothing to go back to believe on Him, be on the path of salvation,and then turn to sin down the road, and be unrepentant. We must continually believe and follow Him. Hence, the enduring to the end spoken about in previous posts.

I think there may be a terminology barrier between us. When I say works, I don't mean salvation that I can attain on my own without Christ, but, the necessity of following Him. Once we believe and accept Him, all is not done [which was discussed in earlier posts]. I believe we are saying the same thing using different words.

In reference to the works/grace in the Book of Mormon, I see no discrepancy. I believe the same could be said about the Bible when only select verses are read. The Book of Mormon does teach this same belief that has been discussed.

[paul6150]

Paul, then I totally agree with you on your view of salvation. It lines up exactly with what we teach. As I spoke about before, the Bible is clear on salvation, however, many mis-understand it. They tend to take just a few scriptures from the Apostle Paul to define salvation, and leave out the may others that I previously cited. I believe that we truly must follow the Savior, not only in word, but deed also.

←

livy111us

You apparently agree that salvation is totally about what God does and that it lines up with "what we teach". Not that I want to disagree with someone that seems to be agreeing with me but if I remember your bio-info says you are a member of the LDS. If that is true then how do you line up the teachings in the BOM and the D of C with the message of the Bible? The BOM clearly teaches a "works message" sometimes intermixed with the grace message. It can't be both ways. Either it is by grace or it is by works not both. Works, in the Biblical sense comes out of the outpouring of God's grace through those who believe in the Lord Jesus but the BOM emphasizes a "works message".

So how do you justify your stance on salvation?

Paul, I am now a little confused. You say that we cannot be saved by Grace if we are saved by works, and vice versa. A point may have been missed. As I said earlier, it doesn't matter how much we do, how many times we read the Scriptures, and do good to others, without Christ, we could not enter into heaven. However, once we have accepted Christ, we must follow Him. It would mean nothing to go back to believe on Him, be on the path of salvation,and then turn to sin down the road, and be unrepentant. We must continually believe and follow Him. Hence, the enduring to the end spoken about in previous posts.

I think there may be a terminology barrier between us. When I say works, I don't mean salvation that I can attain on my own without Christ, but, the necessity of following Him. Once we believe and accept Him, all is not done [which was discussed in earlier posts]. I believe we are saying the same thing using different words.

In reference to the works/grace in the Book of Mormon, I see no discrepancy. I believe the same could be said about the Bible when only select verses are read. The Book of Mormon does teach this same belief that has been discussed.

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Paul'sResponse

We are close in our words but still not there. What I am saying is that the Bible is clear that Jesus paid the price for us to attain heaven. All that He asks of us is to accept this free gift, confess our sins, recognize we cannot do it without Him and ask Him to be our Savior and Lord. Remember the gift of grace (unmerited favor) is a free gift - it doesn't cause us to say we now have to live perfect lives and never sin again and then He will allow us in heaven (which is what I contend the BOM teaches). When I get back to my house I will post a summary of places where the BOM teaches this type of "maybe I will get into heaven" message.

What the Bible does say is that once we accept Jesus truely in our heart and have truely accepted Him as our Savior (remember He knows what our real motives are in our heart) then He through the work of the HOLY SPIRIT will begin to transform our hearts from being selfish and unkind and stingy and unloving, etc. etc. into someone who is giving, loving, kind, etc. etc. (see Galatians 5 for the fruits of the flesh and fruits of the spirit at work). This is described in the Bible as the sanctification, transformation, renewing and justification parts of our walk with Him. During these times we will still follow the ways of the flesh on occasion and sin but that is when His grace will cause you to recognize we have sinned and cause us to once again confess our sins and He will cleanse us (1 John). This is what I described in the earlier post to you as the 2nd and 3rd options that can happen each hour of each day. Paul when he wrote the Book of Romans (many years after his Damascus Road experience) he described the war going on in him between the flesh and the spirit and then at the end of Romans 7 says "who is going to save this wicked wretch that I am". Paul then answers his own question by saying Jesus will save him.

This sanctification, justification, transformation process I say the Bible describes is carried out by God who is at work in us to will and do what He asks. We are called to pick up our cross daily (surrender ourselves as living sacrifices - Romans 12:1) and die to self and what the flesh wants and let Jesus rule and reign as Lord of my life. This killing of our fleshly desires does not come easily and we need His grace to carry through with every aspect of the dying process. Thus it comes about that it is His grace at work in the whole process as I contended before. If it is left up to us to carry out this sanctification process by what we do, then we will either choose: to fail in doing the work or we will boast that we have done such good things and expect Him to let us in to heaven. Jesus said to those who come to him in the end times and say Lord Lord look what WE have done in your name. WE cast out demons blah blah blah and Jesus says Away with you I never knew you (Matthew 7:21-23). They were doing good things but they were boasting about what they were doing.

I will end now by saying once again what I contend the Bible says is that the whole process is a work of God's grace and nothing that we do other than accepting it and letting Him use us and work through us. WE ARE HIS VESSELS AND HAVE TO LET HIM USE US AS HE WANTS NOT AS WE WANT.

[livy111us]

We are close in our words but still not there. What I am saying is that the Bible is clear that Jesus paid the price for us to attain heaven. All that He asks of us is to accept this free gift, confess our sins, recognize we cannot do it without Him and ask Him to be our Savior and Lord. Remember the gift of grace (unmerited favor) is a free gift - it doesn't cause us to say we now have to live perfect lives and never sin again and then He will allow us in heaven (which is what I contend the BOM teaches). When I get back to my house I will post a summary of places where the BOM teaches this type of "maybe I will get into heaven" message.

What the Bible does say is that once we accept Jesus truely in our heart and have truely accepted Him as our Savior (remember He knows what our real motives are in our heart) then He through the work of the HOLY SPIRIT will begin to transform our hearts from being selfish and unkind and stingy and unloving, etc. etc. into someone who is giving, loving, kind, etc. etc. (see Galatians 5 for the fruits of the flesh and fruits of the spirit at work). This is described in the Bible as the sanctification, transformation, renewing and justification parts of our walk with Him. During these times we will still follow the ways of the flesh on occasion and sin but that is when His grace will cause you to recognize we have sinned and cause us to once again confess our sins and He will cleanse us (1 John). This is what I described in the earlier post to you as the 2nd and 3rd options that can happen each hour of each day. Paul when he wrote the Book of Romans (many years after his Damascus Road experience) he described the war going on in him between the flesh and the spirit and then at the end of Romans 7 says "who is going to save this wicked wretch that I am". Paul then answers his own question by saying Jesus will save him.

This sanctification, justification, transformation process I say the Bible describes is carried out by God who is at work in us to will and do what He asks. We are called to pick up our cross daily (surrender ourselves as living sacrifices - Romans 12:1) and die to self and what the flesh wants and let Jesus rule and reign as Lord of my life. This killing of our fleshly desires does not come easily and we need His grace to carry through with every aspect of the dying process. Thus it comes about that it is His grace at work in the whole process as I contended before. If it is left up to us to carry out this sanctification process by what we do, then we will either choose: to fail in doing the work or we will boast that we have done such good things and expect Him to let us in to heaven. Jesus said to those who come to him in the end times and say Lord Lord look what WE have done in your name. WE cast out demons blah blah blah and Jesus says Away with you I never knew you (Matthew 7:21-23). They were doing good things but they were boasting about what they were doing.

I will end now by saying once again what I contend the Bible says is that the whole process is a work of God's grace and nothing that we do other than accepting it and letting Him use us and work through us. WE ARE HIS VESSELS AND HAVE TO LET HIM USE US AS HE WANTS NOT AS WE WANT.

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Paul, I would have to disagree. I believe we are saying the same thing. What you say is "letting Him use us and work through us", and I say follow Him. Again, I believe it's the terminology that is different. We both agree that once you accept Christ, if a man turns to sin and is unrepentant, and maybe even denies the faith, or whatever the circumstances might be, he [odds are, being that we aren't going to be the judge] will not enter into the kingdom. However, someone who does accept Him and relies on His merits, who follows Him and His teachings [again, not knowing the heart of individuals, nor being a judge, can't know for certain] will end up with the Father.

As with the Book of Mormon, like I said earlier, as a whole, the Book of Mormon does not teach salvation by works. I have read it numerous times, so many that I lost count years ago, and have not even got the impression that it teaches that. I believe that it teaches the contrary. Some could pull a few scriptures out and say that it does, but, if someone was to just read Phil. 2:12 alone, they would say the Bible teaches salvation by works. So I will not be convinced of an argument that The Book of Mormon teaches works alone, just as I would not be convinced of the Bible teaching works alone. Having read both many times, I believe that they teach what we both believe.

I appreciate your knowledge and respect. I have talked to many who lose respect and become very rude once they find out I am LDS, but thus far, have not experienced it with you. I believe that you are well read in the Bible and have a proper understanding of salvation.

[livy111us]

a little off the subject, but it's pretty funny:

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said.

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

He said, "Like what?"

I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?"

He said, "Religious."

I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?"

He said, "Christian."

I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

He said, "Protestant."

I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

He said, "Baptist!"

I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

He said, "Baptist Church of God!"

I said, "Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"

He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!"

I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?"

He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!"

I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.

[Serg]

Paul, what about if we concentrate on the arguments, and scriptures above and before quoted, and try to get the central meaning thereof.

Salvation, whether by grace or works it requires God's effort, not ours, for the NT also teaches that 'He produces in us not only the good deeds but the very desire of them", so when attributing works to grace we dont contradict Paul's message, but confirm it. For the law is fulfilled by love. Please, Meditate on my last post and ask me about it.

Regards,

[Traveler]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Nov 17 2005, 10:00 PM

Grace X Faith = Salvation

Grace X Dead Faith = Zero Salvation

Consider yourselves enlightend. heh

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You missed the most important element of man's part. On the only part that man contributes.

Faith - works = Dead Faith.

Consider yourselves enlightend. heh

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Nov 17 2005, 10:00 PM

Grace X Faith = Salvation

Grace X Dead Faith = Zero Salvation

Consider yourselves enlightend. heh

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Faith X (0 Works) = Dead Faith

Faith X (- Works) = Dead Faith

Faith X (Works) = Faith in Christ

Grace X Faith = Grace X Dead Faith

Grace X Faith in Christ = Salvation