What Are The Requirements For Salvation?

[Ray]

Considering the fact that there are several members of this forum who represent various "Christian" religions other than that of LDS, I’m curious to hear more about what those other people would describe as requirements for salvation.

For instance, am I correct in stating that all Christians believe we must have Faith in Christ to be saved?

If so, am I also correct in stating that all Christians believe we must Repent from our sins to be saved?

If so, am I also correct in stating that all Christians believe we must be baptized with water to be saved?

If so, am I also correct in stating that we must endure to the end to be saved?

If so, am I also correct in stating that those are the only things we must do to be saved?

Or in other words, LDS believe our Lord has told us (through prophets) about some other things we can do to receive certain blessings in heaven, and while most other Christians do not believe He has told us these things, I’m wondering how other Christians view our beliefs regarding salvation.

For instance, instead of those other blessings being considered as necessary for our salvation, perhaps we could consider those other blessings more like “bonus” blessings for those who held and adhered to those beliefs?

Or does somebody actually believe our belief and adherance to those beliefs can actually do us or other people some harm, thinking that we might actually consider our adherance to those things to be necessary to our salvation?

And btw, I’m referring to the blessings we believe we can receive from obeying the Word of Wisdom, as well as the blessings we believe we can receive from attending to certain ordinances in the temples we build to our Lord.

Also, if doing certain other things is not necessary for salvation, would doing those things necessarily exclude us from being able to receive salvation, or would they simply be among the things we really didn’t need to do for salvation?

Or in other words, how much or how little do other Christians believe is required to be worthy of salvation, and do other Christians believe that doing more than those things can actually do us some harm?

And btw, please try to explain your point of view so that everyone can better understand your viewpoint.

Thank you.

[paul6150]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 25 2005, 05:00 PM

Considering the fact that there are several members of this forum who represent various "Christian" religions other than that of LDS, I’m curious to hear more about what those other people would describe as requirements for salvation.

For instance, am I correct in stating that all Christians believe we must have Faith in Christ to be saved?

If so, am I also correct in stating that all Christians believe we must Repent from our sins to be saved?

If so, am I also correct in stating that all Christians believe we must be baptized with water to be saved?

If so, am I also correct in stating that we must endure to the end to be saved?

If so, am I also correct in stating that those are the only things we must do to be saved?

Or in other words, LDS believe our Lord has told us (through prophets) about some other things we can do to receive certain blessings in heaven, and while most other Christians do not believe He has told us these things, I’m wondering how other Christians view our beliefs regarding salvation.

For instance, instead of those other blessings being considered as necessary for our salvation, perhaps we could consider those other blessings more like “bonus” blessings for those who held and adhered to those beliefs?

Or does somebody actually believe our belief and adherance to those beliefs can actually do us or other people some harm, thinking that we might actually consider our adherance to those things to be necessary to our salvation?

And btw, I’m referring to the blessings we believe we can receive from obeying the Word of Wisdom, as well as the blessings we believe we can receive from attending to certain ordinances in the temples we build to our Lord.

Also, if doing certain other things is not necessary for salvation, would doing those things necessarily exclude us from being able to receive salvation, or would they simply be among the things we really didn’t need to do for salvation?

Or in other words, how much or how little do other Christians believe is required to be worthy of salvation, and do other Christians believe that doing more than things things can actually do us some harm?

And btw, please try to explain your point of view so that everyone can better understand your viewpoint.

Thank you.

←

Ray

You need to go to my posts on Grace vs. Works and you will see that all we need to do to be saved is easy as ABC

A - Acknowledge you are a sinner and that need a Savior Romans 3:9-12 "Well then, are we Jews better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. As the Scriptures say, "No one is good – not even one. No one has real understanding; no one is seeking God. All have turned away from God; all have gone wrong. No one does good, not even one."

B - Believe in the Lord Jesus and that He died for your sins on the cross. He rose in victory so we through Him can also be victorious. John 3:18

C - Confess you are a sinner and that you now take Jesus as your Lord and Savior and that you accept His free gift of grace.

That is all that is to the salvation process. After that point if you really believed in your heart and really meant what you confessed with your mouth you are saved Romans 10:9-10 and Ephesians 2:8-10.

He will now take the rest from here. He will help you to walk in faith and obedience. He will shape you into the vessel He wants you to be. Out of His work you will become more loving because He first loved you even when you were a sinner; you will become more giving because He gave His life for you; you will become more obedient to His word because He was totally obedient to His Father in heaven Hebrews 12:2-3 (baptism and all the other works flow out of this obedience) and so on and so on. For it is Him is is at work in you to will and do as He pleases.

IT IS THAT SIMPLE. THE REST IS UP TO HIM TO CHANGE US FROM THE INSIDE. TO TRANSFORM OUR MINDS SO WE WILL THINK AS HE WANTS US TO THINK.

FINALLY AT THE END OF OF OUR LIVES IT IS STILL HIS GRACE THAT FINALLY PERFECTS US TO THE POINT THAT WHEN WE SEE HIM WE WILL BE LIKE HIM (1 John something - can't remember)

[Snow]

Originally posted by paul6150@Nov 25 2005, 04:25 PM

You need to go to my posts on Grace vs. Works and you will see that all we need to do to be saved is easy as ABC

A  - Acknowledge you are a sinner and that need a Savior ...

B  - Believe in the Lord Jesus...

C  - Confess you are a sinner and that you now take Jesus as your Lord and Savior...

That is all that is to the salvation process.

←

Hi Paul.

1. What Christian tradition do you hail from?

2. Are Mormons saved (provided they have done a,b,c)?

[Ray]

A - Acknowledge you are a sinner and that need a Savior Romans 3:9-12 "Well then, are we Jews better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. As the Scriptures say, "No one is good – not even one. No one has real understanding; no one is seeking God. All have turned away from God; all have gone wrong. No one does good, not even one."

Okay, omitting the scriptures you used to substantiate your point, you are saying that we need to “acknowledge that we are “sinners and that we need a Savior”, and I have done and continue to do that.

B - Believe in the Lord Jesus and that He died for your sins on the cross. He rose in victory so we through Him can also be victorious.

Okay, I believe all of that.

C - Confess you are a sinner and that you now take Jesus as your Lord and Savior and that you accept His free gift of grace.

Okay, I have done that and continue to do that too.

Is that it?

Perhaps you should explain what it means to take Jesus as our Lord?

If Jesus Christ is our Lord, it stands to reason that He would give us things to do, otherwise what is the point of having a “Lord”?

And as I said, I (as a LDS) believe He has given me (and many other people) some other things to do besides the things you mentioned.

So I should probably do those things too, right? Otherwise how is Jesus to be my “Lord”?

[BenRaines]

I think it is a good topic. What would make it a little better would be to see what everyone's definition of saved or salvation is. I believe that as in Adam all me die so in Christ, his resurrection all will be made alive. All will be resurrected. Even Sons of Perdition.

So maybe a definition of what salvation is or the salvation that all are seeking. I am seeking greater than just resurrection

[Josie]

I believe the atonement to be the saving grace for all men. Every man, woman, or child that has ever lived upon the face of the earth, or does now, or will is saved through the atonement, in that he or she will be resurrected with an Eternal body of flesh and bone. This is God and Jesus Christ's gift to us. No matter how good or bad we have been, we will go through eternity with a body. That was our gift, for being born into this world.

From there, we have everything to do with determining where we spend eternity with that body. Those that have never been taught of Christ or his word, will have a chance to hear and accept or reject it. Those who have literally lived their lives as the scum of the earth and murdered and done all manner of evil will be placed as far from God as his law will allow, whether that be in the lowest degrees of the Telestial Kingdom or Outer Darkness, according to the knowledge and understanding of his word.

Our faith, obedience, love of God and mankind, and our works determine where salvation takes the rest of us. Salvation comes through repentance and obedience to God's commands. Exaltation comes through obedience to the higher laws. Those higher laws being our temple work and obedience to the covenants made in the temple...

[prisonchaplain]

  BenRaines,Nov 25 2005, 07:19 PM

I think it is a good topic.  What would make it a little better would be to see what everyone's definition of saved or salvation is.  I believe that as in Adam all me die so in Christ, his resurrection all will be made alive.  All will be resurrected.  Even Sons of Perdition.

So maybe a definition of what salvation is or the salvation that all are seeking.  I am seeking greater than just resurrection

Let me try to rephrase, and then answer the bottom-line questions.

1. Mormons

A. Admit they were sinners.

B. Believe in Jesus.

C. Repent of their sins.

NOTE: Most evangelicals do NOT see water baptism as a prerequisite, nor as a sacramental agent of the salvation experience. We believe in what theologians call "credo-baptism"--baptism that is born out of creed, or belief. It is often called a Believer's Baptism.

So, why do evangelicals and other Christian 'anti-Mormons' bother trying to convert the LDS?

Answer: The ABC's of salvation presuppose the convert understands who God is, have put their faith in Jesus alone, and that they are committed to following God's Word, the Holy Bible. Evangelicals find potentially damning the following LDS distinctives:

1. Belief in a God who evolves (with a changing nature--sometimes called "eternal progression")

2. Belief in a Jesus who is not "co-eternal with the Father"

3. Belief that the Holy Bible is errant due to interpretation issues

4. Belief that the Standard Works and the official prophetic words of LDS prophets are equal or superior to the Bible

5. Belief that salvation, at the general level, does not require Jesus, and at the highest level (exaltation) requires more than Jesus (sacraments and allegiance to an organization)

Most evangelicals believe that the totality of these distinctives moves the LDS faith outside the realm of orthodoxy.

2. What does it mean to be "saved?"

For evangelicals being freed from the fear of eternal punishment, and free to live forever with God. No more sorrows, no more tears, no more sickness, no more death. We'll judge angels. We will neither marry, nor give in marriage.

The best way I can think to describe it is that in eternity we will no longer relate to God INDIRECTLY, though nature, but directly. For example, in the holy city there will be no need for the sun or moon, for the glory of God will illumine the place.

BTW: We agree about enduring to the end.

[Snow]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 25 2005, 08:50 PM

So, why do evangelicals and other Christian 'anti-Mormons' bother trying to convert the LDS?

Answer:  The ABC's of salvation presuppose the convert understands who God is, have put their faith in Jesus alone, and that they are committed to following God's Word, the Holy Bible.  Evangelicals find potentially damning the following LDS distinctives:

1.  Belief in a God who evolves (with a changing nature--sometimes called "eternal progression")

2.  Belief in a Jesus who is not "co-eternal with the Father"

3.  Belief that the Holy Bible is errant due to interpretation issues

4.  Belief that the Standard Works and the official prophetic words of LDS prophets are equal or superior to the Bible

5.  Belief that salvation, at the general level, does not require Jesus, and at the highest level (exaltation) requires more than Jesus (sacraments and allegiance to an organization)

Most evangelicals believe that the totality of these distinctives moves the LDS faith outside the realm of orthodoxy.

2.  What does it mean to be "saved?"

For evangelicals being freed from the fear of eternal punishment, and free to live forever with God.  No more sorrows, no more tears, no more sickness, no more death.  We'll judge angels.  We will neither marry, nor give in marriage.

The best way I can think to describe it is that in eternity we will no longer relate to God INDIRECTLY, though nature, but directly.  For example, in the holy city there will be no need for the sun or moon, for the glory of God will illumine the place.

BTW:  We agree about enduring to the end.

←

I assume that what you just described also represents your beliefs as well. Yes?

So, you believe that salvation is my faith/grace AND knowledge of correct doctrine AND acceptance of the Bible as inerrant, etc?

That's an interesting stance to take. So you do not believe that salvation is a free gift of grace to those who accept Christ but that they need to earn it by believing key doctrinal points as well?

Yes - I am diliberatly painting your position in a certain light but isn't that what you are saying - that salvation is NOT by faith / grace alone?

On another note: I do not understand your last statement. What are you trying to say about the glory of God - that is of a electromagnetic wavelenght visible to the human eye?

[prisonchaplain]

Snow asks: I assume that what you just described also represents your beliefs as well. Yes?

I won't offer a dogmatic yes. However, if we are correct that there is only one true and living God, who created us, and has chosen to be intimately involved with us, then it makes sense that this God would reveal himself to us, and expect us to worship him, for lack of a better term, accurately.

So, you believe that salvation is my faith/grace AND knowledge of correct doctrine AND acceptance of the Bible as inerrant, etc?

Once again, I will not offer an absolute yes. I will leave the judging to God. However, if I am to admit I am a sinner, who am I admitting it to? If I am to believe in Jesus, what is it about him that I am to believe? If I am to confess my sins, who am I confessing to? Do I have to have it all down pat? Surely not. But, how wrong can I be?

Surely, we all want to be as right as we can. Part of pleasing God, is understanding him. Now we "see through a glass darkly, then face to face." However, as his Spirit fills us, we should be drawn TO truths and AWAY from that which is not.

That's an interesting stance to take. So you do not believe that salvation is a free gift of grace to those who accept Christ but that they need to earn it by believing key doctrinal points as well?

I would suggest that you need to have the right God. For example, those determine to directly and passionately worship Satan, to the pointing of killing all Christians, Muslims and Jews, might be sincere. The might Admit they are a sinner, believe Lucifer is Lord, and confess/commit their lives to him. But, no they clearly would not be saved.

As for the doctrine concerning scriptural inerrancy, I might not consider that a "salvational doctrine." However, if we cannot agree on what God's Word is, it would be difficult to sustain spiritual community together.

Yes - I am diliberatly painting your position in a certain light but isn't that what you are saying - that salvation is NOT by faith / grace alone?

Faith in the grace of God. But, you've got to get God's identity right. A full understanding? Perhaps not. But the warnings against false religion and false gods are too plentiful in the Old Testament. Paul's aggressive witness to Jews and Pagans also speaks to the necessity of getting who God is right. Also, if we are to believe in Jesus, it would make sense that we must believe in the true Jesus that is revealed to us.

I'll not judge the fellow sitting next to me in the pew, so I'm sure not going to judge the person sitting behind a terminal hundreds of miles away from me. However, God surely wants us to pursue him, to worship him "in Spirit and in truth." I want to know him as well as I can. I want to help others do the same.

On another note: I do not understand your last statement. What are you trying to say about the glory of God - that is of a electromagnetic wavelenght visible to the human eye?

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Revelation 21:23

I don't fully grasp this myself. But, my sense is that in eternity, our relationship to God will be direct, rather than through the agency of creation. This is my conjecture--one that I find 'mind blowing.'

[Josie]

1. Belief in a God who evolves (with a changing nature--sometimes called "eternal progression") D&C 20: 17

17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;

2 Ne. 27: 23

23 For behold, I am God; and I am a God of miracles; and I will show unto the world that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and I work not among the children of men save it be according to their faith.

2. Belief in a Jesus who is not "co-eternal with the Father" Not sure what you mean by "not co-eternal", but we believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God the Father and that he is the God of this world. We believe that through his atonement, he made it possible for all of us to return to live with him and our Father in Heaven eternally. We believe him to be the creator of this world, under the direction of our Father in Heaven. We believe him to be with our Father in Heaven. John 17: 3

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Acts 4: 10

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

3. Belief that the Holy Bible is errant due to interpretation issues:"If the Book of Mormon is true, the Bible is true. The Bible is the Testament of the Old World; the Book of Mormon is the Testament of the New. One is the record of Judah; the other is the record of Joseph, and they have come together in the hand of the Lord in fulfilment of the prophecy of Ezekiel. (See Ezek. 37:19.) Together they declare the Kingship of the Redeemer of the world and the reality of his kingdom."

--President Gordon B. Hinckley Tambuli, Oct. 1988

4. Belief that the Standard Works and the official prophetic words of LDS prophets are equal or superior to the Bible I think the quote in # 3 answers this also.

5. Belief that salvation, at the general level, does not require Jesus, and at the highest level (exaltation) requires more than Jesus (sacraments and allegiance to an organization) There is an excellent talk on www.lds.org. Go to library, click on html, and search for talk: Marion G. Romney, “Principles of Temporal Salvation,” Tambuli, Oct. 1981. He expresses very well our ideas on salvation.

Hope that clears up alittle mud...

[livy111us]

As posted in an earlier thread, the Bible says we are saved by the following:

--Abstaining from fornication, idolatry, adultery, stealing, coveting, drinking, reviling, and

extortion--1 Cor. 6:9-10

--Abstaining from fornication–1 Thess. 4:3 + Mat. 7:21

--Baptism-Mark 16:16, 1 Pet. 3:21, Heb. 6:2 + 1 Tim. 4:16

--Become as a little child--Mat. 18:3

--Belief-- Acts 16:31

--Belief and confession-- Rom. 10:9

--Belonging to His church--Acts 2:47

--Bring forth good fruit– Matthew 7:16-20

--Calling on the name of the Lord-- Rom. 10:13 + Acts 22:16

--Endure until the end--Mat. 24:13, Mat. 10:22, Mark 13:13, Rom. 2:6-8, Rev. 2:26, 2 Tim. 4:7-8

(notice the words fought, finished, and kept)

--Engrafted word--James 1:21

--Faith-- 1 Pet. 1:5, Heb. 11:1, Rom. 8:24

--Faith and scriptures-- 2 Tim. 3:16 + Heb. 6:2

--Foolishness of preaching-- 1 Cor. 1:21

--Gospel--1 Cor. 15:1-2

--Grace-- Eph. 2:8

--Hope not seen-- Rom. 8:24

--Keeping the commandments-- 1 John 4:7,5:3, Mat. 19:17

--Know God and Christ--John 17:3

--Love of truth--2 Thes. 2:10

--Must be morally clean--Eph. 5:5

--Name of Christ-- Acts 4:12

--Obedience-- 2 Thess. 1:8, Heb. 5:9, 1 Pet. 4:17, 1 Tim. 4:16, John 17:3 +1 John 2:3

--Overcoming the world--Rev. 3:21

--Repentance-- 2 Cor. 7:10

--Washing of regeneration-- Titus 3:5

--Yourself and fear--Phil. 2:12

“The New Testament records 541 scriptural statements by over sixteen different biblical personalities that pertain directly or indirectly to the way salvation is achieved. The preponderance of evidence is clearly in favor of statements that indicate that man will be held accountable and judge on the basis of his works, deeds, acts, fruits, obedience, and so forth. Of the 541 New Testament

scriptural statements 418 (or77%) are supportive of works as a criterion in final judgment” (The Doctrine of Salvation by Grace vs. Works: A New Look at an Old Controversy, found in A Symposium on the New Testament, by Michael Adair, pg. 28-33)

And, as stated earlier, C.S. Lewis hit the nail on the head when he said “Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary. A serious moral effort is the only thing that will bring you to the point where you throw up the sponge. Faith in Christ is the only thing to save you from despair at that point: and out of that Faith in Him good actions must inevitably come” (Mere Christianity, 129)

[prisonchaplain]

  Josie,Nov 25 2005, 11:50 PM. 

D&C 20: 17

17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;

2 Ne. 27: 23

23 For behold, I am God; and I am a God of miracles; and I will show unto the world that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and I work not among the children of men save it be according to their faith.

Do you believe that the Heavenly Father was once a man?

Not sure what you mean by "not co-eternal", but we believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God the Father and that he is the God of this world.  We believe that through his atonement, he made it possible for all of us to return to live with him and our Father in Heaven eternally.  We believe him to be the creator of this world, under the direction of our Father in Heaven.  We believe him to be with our Father in Heaven.

Do you believe that the Heavenly Father created Jesus? Did Jesus have a beginning--a starting point to his existence?

3.  Belief that the Holy Bible is errant due to interpretation issues:"If the Book of Mormon is true, the Bible is true. The Bible is the Testament of the Old World; the Book of Mormon is the Testament of the New. One is the record of Judah; the other is the record of Joseph, and they have come together in the hand of the Lord in fulfilment of the prophecy of Ezekiel. (See Ezek. 37:19.) Together they declare the Kingship of the Redeemer of the world and the reality of his kingdom."

--President Gordon B. Hinckley  Tambuli, Oct. 1988

Do you believe that, due to the imperfections of the translation process, and to our inability to determine which biblical manuscripts are the originals, that the common biblical translations today (particularly the KJV used by your church) are subject to error? In contrast, do you believe that since there was direct spiritual aid given in the interpretation of the Standard Works, that they are not subject to error?

[Josie]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 27 2005, 03:38 PM

Do you believe that the Heavenly Father was once a man?

I believe Heavenly Father is a perfect man with flesh and bone. I believe that we, meaning all mankind, were created in his image.

Do you believe that the Heavenly Father created Jesus?  Did Jesus have a beginning--a starting point to his existence?

I believe that Heavenly Father created Christ's spirit from intellegence that already existed and that he is one of the first, if not the first, of his spiritual creations from already existing intellegent matter. I believe there was no beginning and there will be no end to God and his creations, nor to those of Christ. The scriptures tell us over and over that there was no beginning and there is no end... It is like this PrisonChaplain: You draw a line and somewhere along that line you place a dot and then continue your line.

_________________.______________________________________

The line really has no beginning and no end, it is continuous. That dot is our earthly life. It is the short time in eternity that we exist on this earth. We came without beginning and we leave without end.

Do you believe that, due to the imperfections of the translation process, and to our inability to determine which biblical manuscripts are the originals, that the common biblical translations today (particularly the KJV used by your church) are subject to error?

Yes. I do believe that there are errors in the KJV of the Bible. It is cannonized in our church and we do accept it as scripture as far as it is translated correctly. It is the best authority we have on the teachings of Christ to the ancient world, even with its imperfections.

In contrast, do you believe that since there was direct spiritual aid given in the interpretation of the Standard Works, that they are not subject to error

I do believe they are the most perfect scripture we have upon the face of the earth today.

[Snow]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 25 2005, 09:59 PM

Snow asks:  I assume that what you just described also represents your beliefs as well. Yes?

I won't offer a dogmatic yes.  However, if we are correct that there is only one true and living God, who created us, and has chosen to be intimately involved with us, then it makes sense that this God would reveal himself to us, and expect us to worship him, for lack of a better term, accurately.

So, you believe that salvation is my faith/grace AND knowledge of correct doctrine AND acceptance of the Bible as inerrant, etc?

Once again, I will not offer an absolute yes.  I will leave the judging to God.  However, if I am to admit I am a sinner, who am I admitting it to?  If I am to believe in Jesus, what is it about him that I am to believe?  If I am to confess my sins, who am I confessing to?  Do I have to have it all down pat?  Surely not.  But, how wrong can I be?

Surely, we all want to be as right as we can.  Part of pleasing God, is understanding him.  Now we "see through a glass darkly, then face to face."  However, as his Spirit fills us, we should be drawn TO truths and AWAY from that which is not.

That's an interesting stance to take. So you do not believe that salvation is a free gift of grace to those who accept Christ but that they need to earn it by believing key doctrinal points as well?

I would suggest that you need to have the right God.  For example, those determine to directly and passionately worship Satan, to the pointing of killing all Christians, Muslims and Jews, might be sincere.  The might Admit they are a sinner, believe Lucifer is Lord, and confess/commit their lives to him.  But, no they clearly would not be saved.

As for the doctrine concerning scriptural inerrancy, I might not consider that a "salvational doctrine."  However, if we cannot agree on what God's Word is, it would be difficult to sustain spiritual community together.

Yes - I am diliberatly painting your position in a certain light but isn't that what you are saying - that salvation is NOT by faith / grace alone?

Faith in the grace of God.  But, you've got to get God's identity right.  A full understanding?  Perhaps not.  But the warnings against false religion and false gods are too plentiful in the Old Testament.  Paul's aggressive witness to Jews and Pagans also speaks to the necessity of getting who God is right.  Also, if we are to believe in Jesus, it would make sense that we must believe in the true Jesus that is revealed to us.

I'll not judge the fellow sitting next to me in the pew, so I'm sure not going to judge the person sitting behind a terminal hundreds of miles away from me.  However, God surely wants us to pursue him, to worship him "in Spirit and in truth."  I want to know him as well as I can.  I want to help others do the same.

On another note: I do not understand your last statement. What are you trying to say about the glory of God - that is of a electromagnetic wavelenght visible to the human eye?

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.  Revelation 21:23

I don't fully grasp this myself.  But, my sense is that in eternity, our relationship to God will be direct, rather than through the agency of creation.  This is my conjecture--one that I find 'mind blowing.'

←

Come now PC,

There's no need to get all cagey and start posting defensively.

We are talking about the God of the Bible - of Abraham, Isaac and Moses. We are talking about Jesus Christ of the Bible, born in Bethlehem to Mary, who was baptised in the River Jordan, called his 12 apostles and was crucified for our sins.

If I accept that Christ as my Savior - can I be saved. No one is asking you to pass judgements - just tell me if salvation is my faith in Christ alone or do I also need to earn my salvation by understanding and accepting correct doctrine.

[paul6150]

Originally posted by Snow+Nov 27 2005, 08:41 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-prisonchaplain@Nov 25 2005, 09:59 PM

Snow asks:  I assume that what you just described also represents your beliefs as well. Yes?

I won't offer a dogmatic yes.  However, if we are correct that there is only one true and living God, who created us, and has chosen to be intimately involved with us, then it makes sense that this God would reveal himself to us, and expect us to worship him, for lack of a better term, accurately.

So, you believe that salvation is my faith/grace AND knowledge of correct doctrine AND acceptance of the Bible as inerrant, etc?

Once again, I will not offer an absolute yes.  I will leave the judging to God.  However, if I am to admit I am a sinner, who am I admitting it to?  If I am to believe in Jesus, what is it about him that I am to believe?  If I am to confess my sins, who am I confessing to?  Do I have to have it all down pat?  Surely not.  But, how wrong can I be?

Surely, we all want to be as right as we can.  Part of pleasing God, is understanding him.  Now we "see through a glass darkly, then face to face."  However, as his Spirit fills us, we should be drawn TO truths and AWAY from that which is not.

That's an interesting stance to take. So you do not believe that salvation is a free gift of grace to those who accept Christ but that they need to earn it by believing key doctrinal points as well?

I would suggest that you need to have the right God.  For example, those determine to directly and passionately worship Satan, to the pointing of killing all Christians, Muslims and Jews, might be sincere.  The might Admit they are a sinner, believe Lucifer is Lord, and confess/commit their lives to him.  But, no they clearly would not be saved.

As for the doctrine concerning scriptural inerrancy, I might not consider that a "salvational doctrine."  However, if we cannot agree on what God's Word is, it would be difficult to sustain spiritual community together.

Yes - I am diliberatly painting your position in a certain light but isn't that what you are saying - that salvation is NOT by faith / grace alone?

Faith in the grace of God.  But, you've got to get God's identity right.  A full understanding?  Perhaps not.  But the warnings against false religion and false gods are too plentiful in the Old Testament.  Paul's aggressive witness to Jews and Pagans also speaks to the necessity of getting who God is right.  Also, if we are to believe in Jesus, it would make sense that we must believe in the true Jesus that is revealed to us.

I'll not judge the fellow sitting next to me in the pew, so I'm sure not going to judge the person sitting behind a terminal hundreds of miles away from me.  However, God surely wants us to pursue him, to worship him "in Spirit and in truth."  I want to know him as well as I can.  I want to help others do the same.

On another note: I do not understand your last statement. What are you trying to say about the glory of God - that is of a electromagnetic wavelenght visible to the human eye?

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.  Revelation 21:23

I don't fully grasp this myself.  But, my sense is that in eternity, our relationship to God will be direct, rather than through the agency of creation.  This is my conjecture--one that I find 'mind blowing.'

←

Come now PC,

There's no need to get all cagey and start posting defensively.

We are talking about the God of the Bible - of Abraham, Isaac and Moses. We are talking about Jesus Christ of the Bible, born in Bethlehem to Mary, who was baptised in the River Jordan, called his 12 apostles and was crucified for our sins.

If I accept that Christ as my Savior - can I be saved. No one is asking you to pass judgements - just tell me if salvation is my faith in Christ alone or do I also need to earn my salvation by understanding and accepting correct doctrine.

←

PAUL6150 SAYS:

To all who posted here since my last post to Ray regarding the ABC's of salvation. Let me first answer the one question as to which brand of Christian I am but first a little history. I was born and raised a strong Catholic; married a strong RLDS woman 31 years ago. We raised our family under both churches and didn't have a lot of battles over religion until I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior on April 16, 1988 at the age of 35. At this juncture Jesus took me and my family through many tough times (many fights about religion) but now on the victorious side of these battles we (my wife and I) now serve Jesus in a non-denominational Christian church (Charismatic/Pentecostal) and each of our kids are strong members of similar Charismatic/Pentecostal churches where God has placed them. God has taught me many things during these times and He is still teaching me more but here are some points that must be made in this post.

FIRST: One point I do agree with prisonchaplain on is that we must surrender to the true God (the ABC's as I presented before) in order to be saved, however, I also believe that even if they do not know the true God nor have all their doctrinal points straightened out God will save those whose hearts are turned to Him. There are many testimonies of people radically changed by Christ from where they first cried out to Him. Many have testimonies of not knowing the God of the Bible yet God saved them and led them to an understanding that the Bible tells them about this God who has saved them.

SECOND: I believe that God can reach the heart of the murderer, businessman, housewife, atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Mormon, Catholic, etc. at the place they are at and draw them to Him just as He did to my wife and I many years ago. He then begins to change our lives one step at a time from the inside. He changes our previous misled core values to accept His values and make them ours. This change doesn’t come easy but God will change us as we surrender to HIM one baby step at a time. SO IN RESPONSE TO RAY’S QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER MORMON’S CAN BE SAVED IF THEY DO THE ABC’S OF SALVATION, I state a whole-hearted YES but HE will be the one who judges whether the heart of the individual was truly seeking Him or whether they meant what they confessed. If their hearts desire was right THEN God will save them for that is what grace (unmerited favor) is all about..

THIRD: From the point of true salvation, God will gradually pry away those things (even false teaching) that are not according to HIS word and will fill our lives with things that are right and true. He will show us that our strength comes from the depth and intimacy we have with our Lord Jesus. If one examines the word “intimacy” it is defined as a relationship marked by very close association, contact, or familiarity.

In the Jewish Talmud: we find the rabbis also stressing an intimacy into the relationship between God and man. God became the father to whom each individual could turn in direct prayer for his needs.

Intimacy with God is more like each of us giving permission for God to look at our heart (into-me-see). It is where the Holy Spirit examines our motives and attitudes as we become more Christ-like. We are admonished in Ephesians 5:1-2 to be imitators of God. How do we do that? The only way possible is through total surrender to Him in which He transforms us from being fornicators, coveters and foolish talkers into individuals who are now loving, thankful and pleasing to Him. I post the New Living Translation’s version of Ephesians 5:1-21 and Colossians 3:1-17 to emphasize this point.

Ephesians 5:1-21: “Follow God's example in everything you do, because you are his dear children. Live a life filled with love for others, following the example of Christ, who loved you and gave himself as a sacrifice to take away your sins. And God was pleased, because that sacrifice was like sweet perfume to him. Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God's people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes – these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is really an idolater who worships the things of this world. Don't be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the terrible anger of God comes upon all those who disobey him. Don't participate in the things these people do. For though your hearts were once full of darkness, now you are full of light from the Lord, and your behavior should show it! For this light within you produces only what is good and right and true. Try to find out what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the worthless deeds of evil and darkness; instead, rebuke and expose them. It is shameful even to talk about the things that ungodly people do in secret. But when the light shines on them, it becomes clear how evil these things are. And where your light shines, it will expose their evil deeds. This is why it is said, "Awake, O sleeper, rise up from the dead, and Christ will give you light." So be careful how you live, not as fools but as those who are wise. Make the most of every opportunity for doing good in these evil days. Don't act thoughtlessly, but try to understand what the Lord wants you to do. Don't be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, let the Holy Spirit fill and control you. Then you will sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, making music to the Lord in your hearts. And you will always give thanks for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. And further, you will submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.”

Colossians 3:1-17: “Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits at God's right hand in the place of honor and power. Let heaven fill your thoughts. Do not think only about things down here on earth. For you died when Christ died, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God. And when Christ, who is your real life, is revealed to the whole world, you will share in all his glory. So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual sin, impurity, lust, and shameful desires. Don't be greedy for the good things of this life, for that is idolatry. God's terrible anger will come upon those who do such things. You used to do them when your life was still part of this world. But now is the time to get rid of anger, rage, malicious behavior, slander, and dirty language. Don't lie to each other, for you have stripped off your old evil nature and all its wicked deeds. In its place you have clothed yourselves with a brand-new nature that is continually being renewed as you learn more and more about Christ, who created this new nature within you. In this new life, it doesn't matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbaric, uncivilized, slave, or free. Christ is all that matters, and he lives in all of us. Since God chose you to be the holy people whom he loves, you must clothe yourselves with tenderhearted mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. You must make allowance for each other's faults and forgive the person who offends you. Remember, the Lord forgave you, so you must forgive others. And the most important piece of clothing you must wear is love. Love is what binds us all together in perfect harmony. And let the peace that comes from Christ rule in your hearts. For as members of one body you are all called to live in peace. And always be thankful. Let the words of Christ, in all their richness, live in your hearts and make you wise. Use his words to teach and counsel each other. Sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to God with thankful hearts. And whatever you do or say, let it be as a representative of the Lord Jesus, all the while giving thanks through him to God the Father.”

When one reads these verses they see such things as: “So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you.”… “But now is the time to get rid of anger, rage, malicious behavior, slander, and dirty language. Don't lie to each other, for you have stripped off your old evil nature and all its wicked deeds.” OR “Make the most of every opportunity for doing good in these evil days.” ONE HAS TO ASK ARE THESE NOT ALSO PART OF THE REQUIREMENTS OF SALVATION? My answer is a definite “NO”. Just like baptism is not a requirement for salvation neither is anything that we can do. For if it was possible for us to do these things on our own then we wouldn’t need God. The human problem is that no matter how hard we try to do the things required by the law, we fall woefully short and fail.

This is where God begins to work when we surrender to Him. He is the one that gives us the desires to do good to others even our enemies, to be thankful for what we have been given, not envious of others who may have more and so on. The more we allow Him to work the deeper our intimacy with Him and the more we desire to serve Him. As His child, just as with a child of an earthly king, there are responsibilities for us to carry out but in the greater understanding of these responsibilities, we can only carry out the things that are required by further surrendering to Him and then He works through us the things called for in these Scriptures and others. THAT IS WHAT TRUE SALVATION BY GOD IS ALL ABOUT. MUCH SIMPLER THAN MANY TRY TO MAKE IT.

[Snow]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 27 2005, 01:38 PM

  Josie,Nov 25 2005, 11:50 PM. 

D&C 20: 17

17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;

2 Ne. 27: 23

23 For behold, I am God; and I am a God of miracles; and I will show unto the world that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and I work not among the children of men save it be according to their faith.

Do you believe that the Heavenly Father was once a man?

3.  Belief that the Holy Bible is errant due to interpretation issues:"If the Book of Mormon is true, the Bible is true. The Bible is the Testament of the Old World; the Book of Mormon is the Testament of the New. One is the record of Judah; the other is the record of Joseph, and they have come together in the hand of the Lord in fulfilment of the prophecy of Ezekiel. (See Ezek. 37:19.) Together they declare the Kingship of the Redeemer of the world and the reality of his kingdom."

--President Gordon B. Hinckley  Tambuli, Oct. 1988

Do you believe that, due to the imperfections of the translation process, and to our inability to determine which biblical manuscripts are the originals, that the common biblical translations today (particularly the KJV used by your church) are subject to error? In contrast, do you believe that since there was direct spiritual aid given in the interpretation of the Standard Works, that they are not subject to error?

←

I hope you don't mind if I answer too.

We believe that God is unchanging. How, when or why God was not God we don't know much about.

The Bible is part of the Standard Works. None of it is likely without error but we think that all of it was inspired. The transmission of the Book of Mormon was also inspired but that does not mean it is without error.

[Josie]

Paul, There is truth in much of what you have said. You seem very knowledgable on what you are discussing and I have respect for your opinion. Our beliefs differ on some areas, and it is a welcome opportunity for all of us to share our beliefs and take on things of such great importance. I appreciate being able to discuss our beliefs in a positive atmosphere.

[Ray]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Nov 27 2005, 02:38 PM-->

Do you believe that the Heavenly Father was once a man?

Yes, and I also believe Jesus Christ was once a man.

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 27 2005, 02:38 PM

Do you believe that the Heavenly Father created Jesus?

Yes. Our heavenly Father created Jesus as His only begotten son on Earth.

<!--QuoteBegin-prisonchaplain@Nov 27 2005, 02:38 PM

Did Jesus have a beginning--a starting point to his existence?

Yes. Jesus was born in Bethlehem in what we now call the meridian of time.

Before that, He was known as Jehovah.

Before that, I don’t know what He was called, but I do know He has always existed.

Now, please tell me:

Do you think any of these beliefs contradict the scriptures in the Bible?

And btw, I don't believe they do, although I do believe they contradict some of the beliefs and creeds of some men.

[prisonchaplain]

Snow says:

Come now PC,

There's no need to get all cagey and start posting defensively.

We are talking about the God of the Bible - of Abraham, Isaac and Moses. We are talking about Jesus Christ of the Bible, born in Bethlehem to Mary, who was baptised in the River Jordan, called his 12 apostles and was crucified for our sins.

If I accept that Christ as my Savior - can I be saved. No one is asking you to pass judgements - just tell me if salvation is my faith in Christ alone or do I also need to earn my salvation by understanding and accepting correct doctrine.

WOW. This is the thanks I get? I construct a thoughtful, intelligent, respectful and balanced post, and I get accused of cageyness and defensiveness?

Okay. Bottom-line, Snow wants to know if he's saved or not. He and I believe a lot of the same things about Jesus, but have some different understandings as well. Is their a doctrinal litmus test for getting into heaven?

The biblical verse that gives me pause is:

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Corinthians 11:4

The Apostle Paul is complaining that the Corinthians too easily put up with teachings and teachers that contradict the truth about Jesus and the gospel. So, there are two questions here.

1. Does the Jesus taught in LDS theology come close enough to evangelical understanding to allow unity of fellowship? Here, I am quite certain the answer would be no. Dialogue, yes, but not a joint communion.

2. Does the Jesus taught in LDS theology rate as so heterodox that those who embrace it should be counted as unbelievers, as heretics?

If you ask me to give a firm response today, I'll tell you that I would be just as happy to see Snow embrace all the distinctives of the Assemblies of God as he would to see me enter into the fullness of the restored gospel and church.

[prisonchaplain]

Do you believe that the Heavenly Father was once a man? Ray responds

Yes, and I also believe Jesus Christ was once a man.

If God once was a man--as we now are--and now he is more, then he has changed. He has evolved. This notion is quite different from the historic Christian understanding.

Do you believe that the Heavenly Father created Jesus?

Yes.  Our heavenly Father created Jesus as His only begotten son on Earth.

Historically, Christian churches have taught the incarnation--that God the Son humbled himself, and took on the form of man, making himself lower than the angels. The incarnation in no way suggests that Jesus was not always God.

Did Jesus have a beginning--a starting point to his existence?

Yes.  Jesus was born in Bethlehem in what we now call the meridian of time. 

Before that, He was known as Jehovah.  Before that, I don’t know what He was called, but I do know He has always existed.

Again, historically Christianity has taught that Jesus has always been God the Son. His birth in Bethlehem was an incarnation--God becoming a man to dwell amongst us. He has been, is, and will always be co-equal with the Father, in terms of his nature.

Now, please tell me:  Do you think any of these beliefs contradict the scriptures in the Bible?

Any suggestion that Jesus is less in nature than the Father, or that God the Father has evolved (from man to deity) would seem to counter scripture.

[Ray]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Nov 27 2005, 02:38 PM-->

If God once was a man--as we now are--and now he is more, then he has changed. He has evolved. This notion is quite different from the historic Christian understanding.

First, instead of trying to determine whether or not we should conform to the “historic Christian understanding”, let’s simply try to understand what the scriptures actually reveal, shall we?

Now, responding to your idea that a God can never change, I will submit the idea that Jesus Christ underwent a “change” when He came to Earth as a man, even though He was still God then, before, and continues to be God now, so Jesus Christ himself refutes your idea that a God can never change.

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 27 2005, 02:38 PM

Historically, Christian churches have taught the incarnation--that God the Son humbled himself, and took on the form of man, making himself lower than the angels. The incarnation in no way suggests that Jesus was not always God.

Again, irrespective of what some other Christian churches have taught throughout history, the idea that our heavenly Father “humbled himself, and took on the form of man, making himself lower than the angels”, does not suggest that our heavenly Father was not always God.

Or in other words, if Jesus Christ did only what our heavenly Father had done before, then there is no reason to believe that our heavenly Father was not always God, just as there is no reason to believe that Jesus Christ was not always God, even though they both were born on an Earth as men.

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 27 2005, 02:38 PM

Again, historically Christianity has taught that Jesus has always been God the Son. His birth in Bethlehem was an incarnation--God becoming a man to dwell amongst us. He has been, is, and will always be co-equal with the Father, in terms of his nature.

You’re saying yourself that Jesus Christ became a man to dwell among us, while also saying that Jesus Christ was God before that and that He continued to be God after that, just as He continues to be God now, so why is it so hard for you to accept the idea that our heavenly Father has always been God even though He also once took the form of a man???

<!--QuoteBegin-prisonchaplain

@Nov 28 2005, 02:27 PM

Any suggestion that Jesus is less in nature than the Father, or that God the Father has evolved (from man to deity) would seem to counter scripture.

Somehow you fail to see that YOU are among those who are suggesting that Jesus is less in nature than our heavenly Father, while we [LDS] are suggesting that the nature of our heavenly Father is exactly like the nature of Jesus Christ.

Heh, why can’t you see that?

And btw, I was originally asking what you think we need to know or do to be “saved”, and if you are suggesting that we can only be saved by having a true knowledge of our heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, then you seem to think that one of us will not be among those who will not be saved, considering the fact that we both have different ideas concerning our heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and if after this discussion you STILL think that I am the one who needs saving, then please spare me the energy you are expending to save me while knowing that I would rather you try harder to save yourself.

[prisonchaplain]

Ray says:  Now, responding to your idea that a God can never change, I will submit the idea that Jesus Christ underwent a “change” when He came to Earth as a man, even though He was still God then, before, and continues to be God now, so Jesus Christ himself refutes your idea that a God can never change.

I would submit that Jesus' nature never changed. Philippians 2:6-7 says: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus willingly humbled himself, taking on the form of humanity. He never ceased to be God. His nature did not change.

The all-powerful, all-knowing, every-where present God that Christians have worshipped throughout history is perfect. By its nature, evolution or change, suggests that God is not perfect, but is improving. If so, the very nature of "God" becomes that of a mere being, who happens to be more powerful than us.

Again, irrespective of what some other Christian churches have taught throughout history, the idea that our heavenly Father “humbled himself, and took on the form of man, making himself lower than the angels”, does not suggest that our heavenly Father was not always God.

Or in other words, if Jesus Christ did only what our heavenly Father had done before, then there is no reason to believe that our heavenly Father was not always God, just as there is no reason to believe that Jesus Christ was not always God, even though they both were born on an Earth as men.

Here's the bottom-line on what Christian churches have taught. God the Father was, is, and will always be the perfect Spirit. He was never anything but God. He created all that is. Jesus is God's one and only Son. He too has always been, is, and will always be. He was not created, and he is equal with the Father. He did take on the form of a man, dwelled amongst us, and was sacrificed for our sins. The Holy Spirit, was, is, and will always be God. These three persons are the one true and living God. There are no other gods, and there never will be any other gods.

You’re saying yourself that Jesus Christ became a man to dwell among us, while also saying that Jesus Christ was God before that and that He continued to be God after that, just as He continues to be God now, so why is it so hard for you to accept the idea that our heavenly Father has always been God even though He also once took the form of a man???

Do you mean to say that God the Father has always been Spirit, but that at some point in time, he took the form of a man? Perhaps I have misunderstood your theology. I thought that Mormons believed that God was once a man (like us), and that he became or evolved into a deity.

Somehow you fail to see that YOU are among those who are suggesting that Jesus is less in nature than our heavenly Father, while we [LDS] are suggesting that the nature of our heavenly Father is exactly like the nature of Jesus Christ.

Heh, why can’t you see that?

It's one thing to say that Jesus humbled himself, and took on the form of man, and quite another to say that the Father created him as a human man. It is also one thing to say that God the Son submitted himself to the fashion of a man, and another to say that the heavenly father once was a man and became God. Now, you seem to be suggesting something else...that the heavenly Father has always been God, but used to be a man. I have never heard that before. Perhaps you can explain it.

  And btw, I was originally asking what you think we need to know or do to be “saved”, and if you are suggesting that we can only be saved by having a true knowledge of our heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, then you seem to think that one of us will not be among those who will not be saved, considering the fact that we both have different ideas concerning our heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and if after this discussion you STILL think that I am the one who needs saving, then please spare me then energy you are expending to save me while knowing that I would rather you try a little harder to save yourself.

I can't save you and you can't save me. The Holy Ghost does the convicting. I much preferred Snow's approach to the question--asking me what I thought necessary for true salvation--was I insisting on a doctrinal litmus test?

My answer to him is the same as my answer to you, Ray: The Apostle Paul complained that the Corinthian church tolerated teachers who taught "a different gospel" and "a different Jesus." My sense is that evangelicalism and Mormonism have beliefs that are divergent enough that one system is certainly more right than the other. The differences are significant enough that we'll not likely be invited to teach in each other's churches. Are the differences enough to effect our salvation? My simple answer is that both you and I would be happy to see the other convert to our way of thinking. Short of that, we are both God-seekers. That is enough to keep us at the table of conversation.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 28 2005, 05:40 PM

You’re saying yourself that Jesus Christ became a man to dwell among us, while also saying that Jesus Christ was God before that and that He continued to be God after that, just as He continues to be God now, so why is it so hard for you to accept the idea that our heavenly Father has always been God even though He also once took the form of a man???

Do you mean to say that God the Father has always been Spirit, but that at some point in time, he took the form of a man? Perhaps I have misunderstood your theology. I thought that Mormons believed that God was once a man (like us), and that he became or evolved into a deity.

I think Ray is trying to say that LDS believe that there is possibility that God the Father was once the Messiah on his world, like Jesus is the Messiah on our world. Is that what you're trying to say Ray?

M.

[Snow]

Prisonchaplain,

It's not that your post wasn't thoughtful or polite - just evasive, perhaps so as not to offend. Thanks for answering.

Next question: Do you suscribe to sola scripture

[prisonchaplain]

Snow says:  It's not that your post wasn't thoughtful or polite - just evasive, perhaps so as not to offend. Thanks for answering.

If I've evolved from cagey and defensive to evasive, then y'all are making progress.

Next question: Do you suscribe to sola scripture

Here's my qualified yes. The Catholic Church holds that Scripture and Tradition should be weighed equally, and that only the church has authority to interpret Scripture. Protestants hold that Scripture alone is the final authority, and that all believers should "study to show themselves approved, workmen that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of God."

That said, of course tradition, church history, and even creeds carry some weight. God has given some a gift of teaching. There are learned men and women who have dedicated their lives to the study of the word, who have mastered the biblical languages, and who's writings deserve respect.

To use a non-controversial (for this site) example: When the Oneness Pentecostals proposed that the Trinity was wrong, that the formula of God was not three in one, but one in three (Jesus is God, manifested sometimes as Father, sometimes as Son, sometimes as Holy Spirit), the movement was right to go to theological war over the issue. The Trinity had stood the test of some 1700 years, and the teaching was not to be discarded easily. My denomination lost a fourth of its members and a third of its clergy over that battle.

So, my bottom-line answer is: The Bible trumps tradition, but new interpretations have a burden of proof far greater than historic doctrines. Furthermore, learned teachers with recognized training bare more careful attention than a layperson who thinks they've discovered something.