Things That Make A Real Christian

[Winnie G]

I started this new topic from the Christian Values to separate the two on going thrends.

prisonchaplain

They don't hate you. They love you

Thanks for the good giggle this morning.

I have one cousin who has born again faith fills him with what some might call a fever of Christian love.

I would rather get diphtheria.

I do not understand your remarks about France please explain.

I have a few friends whose sons have served their mission there.

They seem to have a positives experience.

I live in Canada and it makes my blood boil to no end to see so-called “Christian” protesters make little children cling to their mothers skirts in fear when they approach Temple square every conference. Then there are cases of Yong Women doing service there and having hateful & sexual things screamed at them.

This is not what Christ taught. Were I live they would have their behinds tossed in to jail. That protects real freedom to worship from hate-filled actions like those in Salt Lake.

I would like just once to see what kind of reception they would get in front of a Synagogue or a Muslim Temple etc. You know why they do not. Because they know, they would get their buts kicked. The political powers to be would stop it in its tracks in these politically correct times.

Why is it OK to browbeat Mormons? I think at times church members see it as a right of passage to be mistreated. I also think Salt Lake City councilors are door mates and are afraid to get a nosebleed with ACLU and allow it to happen. Just once, if the ACLU really saw what happens they would back away and not back such hate crime?

I love the gospel so much and I like to “Liken it unto myself” in my every day actions.

That includes the rights of others. Teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ comes more from actions of loving thy neighbor and his example then browbeating.

As a family, we have had friends join the church and it was never us waiting for the right moment to ask them to meet the elders but by leaving our faith out there and answering questions that open the door.

My Jewish relatives are my closes relatives. They love me for my actions and every one of them has received a Book of Mormon knowing it had no stings attached (my love) My Heavenly Father has guided me to know what he wants me to do and how to love my neighbor. Being just me has born fruits I never would have thought possible. Its funny I have a reputation in my mission aria as Ahsome Sister Green.

Some people have to struggle to friendship someone who investigates the church.

I just go in to the relationship with no strings attached. Some join some do not but I always walk away with a new friend.

The average time from first contact to membership is ten years. Did any of you know that?

Your example talk’s way loaders then you think. You know it does not hurt to let them know you struggle with your faith and are human and make mistakes.

A co-worker (a born again) I gave a copy of Finding faith in Christ after I returned from conference one year. He has never come back and asked a single question but boy when his friends make anti Mormon remarks he jumps right on them. He defends us now because he has knowledge and actions he has seen to back him.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Dec 15 2005, 11:57 AM

I do not understand your remarks about France please explain.

I have a few friends whose sons have served their mission there.

They seem to have a positives experience.

Sure. I offered this resource on a different thread. Sgallon (our resident Deist) responded, "What do you expect from the French?"

Here's the resource: http://www.cesnur.org/2003/fr_faith.htm

The key point is that French law targets Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, evangelicals, and charismatic Catholics, among others as potential "mind control cults." While missionary work goes on in France, one government official has said that technically, it is illegal to publically proselytize. Furthermore, the government's anti-cult commission has had consulations with the Peoples Republic of China.

I live in Canada and it makes my blood boil to no end to see so-called “Christian” protesters make little children cling to their mothers skirts in fear when they approach Temple square every conference. Then there are cases of Yong Women doing service there and having hateful & sexual things screamed at them.  This is not what Christ taught. Were I live they would have their behinds tossed in to jail. That protects real freedom to worship from hate-filled actions like those in Salt Lake.

Like I said, be careful what you wish for. I'm not endorsing the jihadist tactics of some extreme religionists that make their "hit and run" trips to SLC. Furthermore, nothing justifies sexual harrassment--especially by those claiming to be people of God. You're right. It's not what Jesus would do. When Paul approached the pagans, he gently spoke of the unknown God, showed respect for their traditions, and allowed them to question him. As a result of his patience and humility, Scripture tells us "a few believed."

When the "Mormon-bashing-Yahoos for Jesus" train pulls into SLC they give a terrible name to other non-LDS Christians who live in the area, work in the area, and often engage their LDS friends, neighbors and coworkers with respect and the spirit of love that Jesus taught. So sad. Too bad. Jesus loved sinners, and was harsh on the self-righteous religious leaders. We too often get this backwards.

I would like just once to see what kind of reception they would get in front of a Synagogue or a Muslim Temple etc. You know why they do not. Because they know, they would get their buts kicked. The political powers to be would stop it in its tracks in these politically correct times.

Not so. Neo-Nazis have marched through neighborhoods, the KKK through largely African-American neighborhoods. Americans believe its better to let the extremists make public fools of themselves, rather than allow it to seethe underground, as it does in Europe. Additionally, keep in mind the example of France--give the government the power to limit religious speech, and it will likely use a sledge hammer, rather than the tweezers that might be called for.

Why is it OK to browbeat Mormons?

Because Americans err on the side of free speech, rather than domestic tranquility and politeness.

I think at times church members see it as a right of passage to be mistreated. I also think Salt Lake City councilors are door mates and are afraid to get a nosebleed with ACLU and allow it to happen. Just once, if the ACLU really saw what happens they would back away and not back such hate crime?

The ACLU will get no defense from me. However, keep in mind that in most cases, this group represents the type of secularists who would salivate for a pure and secular society, such a France (or China?)

I love the gospel so much and I like to “Liken it unto myself” in my every day actions.  That includes the rights of others. Teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ comes more from actions of loving thy neighbor and his example then browbeating.  As a family, we have had friends join the church and it was never us waiting for the right moment to ask them to meet the elders but by leaving our faith out there and answering questions that open the door.

Some people have to struggle to friendship someone who investigates the church.  I just go in to the relationship with no strings attached. Some join some do not but I always walk away with a new friend.  The average time from first contact to membership is ten years. Did any of you know that?

What you do is beautiful, and even has a fancy name: Friendship Evangelism. Some discount it as too slow and nonconfrontational for "these last days." However, Jesus spent the bulk of his three years of ministry mentoring 12 guys.

[Josie]

To me a Christian is a person that believes in Christ. A TRUE CHRISTIAN is one who practices what he says he believes. Sometimes we profess to be something that our actions have no symbolance of showing.

It is hard to be a REAL christian and treat our neighbor worse than we would a dog. It is sort of like Christmas, when we take the Christ out of it, there is not much left.

[sgallan]

Sgallon (our resident Deist) responded, "What do you expect from the French?"

I'm a godless heathen thank you. It's my 10 year old that's the diest.

[sgallan]

It is hard to be a REAL christian and treat our neighbor worse than we would a dog.

I treat my dogs really well.

It is sort of like Christmas, when we take the Christ out of it, there is not much left.

I dunno. Santa is getting Reni a skateboard. Her mom is getting her an electric guitar to go along with her drums. Reni is knitting her friends scarves. The way the faces light up with the getting AND giving is magical. The house has lights which was exciting..... expecially given the ladder I used. Tree goes up on Saturday. And we'll see pretty much all the family in the next couple of weeks. I'd say there is a lot to Christmas even without the belief.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 15 2005, 07:43 PM

Sgallon (our resident Deist) responded, "What do you expect from the French?"

I'm a godless heathen thank you. It's my 10 year old that's the diest.

←

Okay, I think I got it Sgallon is the godless heathen. Daughter of Sgallon is the ever-so-cute Olympic hopeful Deist, and Jason is the 'Amway the one True Way" guy.

[Winnie G]

Not so. Neo-Nazis have marched through neighborhoods, the KKK through largely African-American neighborhoods. Americans believe its better to let the extremists make public fools of themselves, rather than allow it to seethe underground, as it does in Europe. Additionally, keep in mind the example of France--give the government the power to limit religious speech, and it will likely use a sledge hammer, rather than the tweezers that might be called for.

See to me that is also a hate crime, under the law any public display of hate towards a individual or group or teaching pro hate such as the Holocaust never happened is a crime. A Canadian History teacher went un-checked for three years before one of the grade 12 student complained that he taught the Holocaust was a myth (Evil Jews) that found him in court charged with teaching a hate crime and he was sent to jail and had his teaching license revoked in Canada.

Free speech should NEVER be used as a excuse to harassed those that worship as they chose.

I don’t think the founding fathers ever saw what we see now, just like slavery.

I think a good hard look at a amendment to the constitution is in order.

Another thought Neo-Nazis and the KKK are not a religion group and would fall under another amendment. Hate crimes should not avail them self’s of free speech since they them self wish to take that right away from others.

I would stand firm next to a Muslin or Jew or even a tree hugging Druid for their right to worship in peace.

French government lost their fight to force Muslim students to leave their head scarves at home wile they attended school just recently so I don’t think the French government has the pull your giving them credit for. Even the US had laws still on the books saying it was OK to shoot Mormons and burn witches. They were taken off the books in my life time.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Dec 15 2005, 11:56 PM

See to me that is also a hate crime, under the law any public display of hate towards a individual or group or teaching pro hate such as the Holocaust never happened is a crime. A Canadian History teacher went un-checked for three years before one of the grade 12 student complained that he taught the Holocaust was a myth (Evil Jews) that found him in court charged with teaching a hate crime and he was sent to jail and had his teaching license revoked in Canada.

Free speech should NEVER be used as a excuse to harassed those that worship as they chose.  I don’t think the founding fathers ever saw what we see now, just like slavery.  I think a good hard look at a amendment to the constitution is in order.

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Our key difference is political here. I've been told that Canadians, for the most part, trust government, and debate about how government should operate officiently. Americans distrust government, and consider it a necessary evil.

So, here's the problem of "hate speech." Canadians say, "This is offensive. Let's set up some laws, and use our courts and corrections systems to mold people into more polite citizens." Americans say, "I don't want government deciding what's hateful and what's disagreement. Next thing you know, they'll find a reason to come after me! Nothing doing!"

We hear about the pastor in Sweden who's being prosecuted for hate speech, because he preached against homosexual behavior (based on Romans 1). Canadians might think, "Wow...that preacher must have really went off the deep end!" Americans think, "The homosexual lobby in Sweden has the government going after it's preachers? The government must have gone off the deep end."

Our public square of ideas is rowdier and more chaotic...but we prefer it to the government-refined politeness of other western countries, where law enforcement can control public discourse.

[Winnie G]

I've been told that Canadians, for the most part, trust government

I do not think Canadians trust their government more then the US citizens.

Canadians have more control over their government. That is why there is another election happening just a year and half after the last one. If Canadians loose trust in the governing bodies they can ask for a vote of none confidence. Witch happened last month.

All legislative body is called to a vote and publicly each one is asked to stand in Parliament and vote Yah or Nay.

You see the Prime Minster still is answerable to the Parliament and its governing body. Very little passes with out the corporation of the members of parliament.

Canadians have not given any one party full control of the parliament by number of sets. I can walk in to the office of my Member of Parliament office and speak to his staff or him face to face. Members of Parliament work out of their own riding (area)

Years ago, when one of my sons was kidnapped by a recently released sex offender I went to my Member of Parliament to make sure things would change. I gave him a Photo of my child and a letter to be read to the other members of Parliament. He gave this letter and photo to every member, in an open Parliament read the letter, and asked the government Member of Parliament who was the Justice Minster what he planed on doing about this and cases like it. Not only was it looked in to and presser applied were it was needed to make sure that animal never get out again under the dangerous offenders act.

The local Crown (district attorney) before it even went to trail asked me to stay behind at his office after we brought our son in for a meeting. He told me I was not a woman to mess with. I told him I was just a mother that is all.

That is the kind of control Canadians have over their government.

Last election year and half ago I hosted a BBQ at my home for the member running for the Permanent set in my aria. He impressed me greatly not by his charisma but by taking the time to explain to a group of teenagers that crashed the BBQ for the free food. I think their teacher suggested it. He explained how the election worked and how important voting really was. He did not win but he won in my books. I told him he made them Liberals when they reached voting age.

So to be honest I think Canadians have more control then just trust.

If you want to remain Prime Minster in Canada, you had better be a good one.

A hate speech is only a hate crime when it incites actions of others to hate.

Not liking Homosexuals as a sin is not a hate crime in its self until someone says “Stomp the Fags” then “It’s a sin”.

Canada is more tolerant of others and to stop the miss treatment of others yes legislation was passed. Canada is more multi Cultural. Canada embraces diverse culture is that live and immigrate to Canada. The best way to explain it is the US is called the melting pot Canada is multi cultural.

Canada is a more tolerant society. you don’t want to ever mistake that as weakness .

[pushka]

Winnie, you say some very wise things in your posts above...I think the Canadian and British governments are similar? Yet from what I read in your posts Canada seems to have it right and listen to its constituents more!!! Well done Canada!!

I agree entirely with your sentiments regarding freedom of speech vs freedom to incite hatred of a particular group in society.

[prisonchaplain]

To summarize the first 70% or so of Winnie's post: She explained that Canadians citizens have stronger control over their government, and perhaps this is why they allow the government to exercise greater authority through "hate speech" laws, etc. She gave a poignant example from her own experience of being able to go to a national politician and tell her story, and then recommend solutions. The politician brought it before the national body.

My response to all that is that in many ways Canada's national government almost runs like an American state government: smaller, more manageable, more able to handle personal issues, and less like to get bureaucratic and unwildy. It all sounds wonderful, but I doubt that it can be duplicated for the U.S.

Canada is more tolerant of others and to stop the miss treatment of others yes legislation was passed. Canada is more multi Cultural. Canada embraces diverse culture is that live and immigrate to Canada. The best way to explain it is the US is called the melting pot Canada is multi cultural.

Here I beg to differ. Keep in mind that the U.S. has more than 10 times the population of Canada. We have more troubles because we have more people, often in greater densities. Our cities are extremely multi-cultural. Seattle schools have children that speak over 100 different languages. I believe my suburban district still counts in the thirties. Also, the "melting pot" model was pretty much discarded in the 1950s. The reality today is what's called the "salad bowl." Many cultures that work side by side, but often remain distinct.

Canada is a more tolerant society. you don’t want to ever mistake that as weakness.

I would suggest that Canada is a more polite society. If America were truly intolerant our immigration policies would be a lot tighter, our borders (especially southern) would be patrolled by military personnel, and we might have an official language.

You perceive intolerance because America is more open, more "tell it like it is," more apt to err on the side of individualism rather than social tranquility.

[Winnie G]

I say this with a smile

(Border)Then who would pick your Lettuce?

as fare as polite yah Ill give you that one, you would not say that in WalMart tonight what a mob!

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Dec 16 2005, 11:55 PM

I say this with a smile

(Border)Then who would pick your Lettuce?

as fare as polite yah Ill give you that one, you would not say that in WalMart tonight what a mob!

←

[sgallan]

Here I beg to differ. Keep in mind that the U.S. has more than 10 times the population of Canada. We have more troubles because we have more people, often in greater densities. Our cities are extremely multi-cultural. Seattle schools have children that speak over 100 different languages. I believe my suburban district still counts in the thirties. Also, the "melting pot" model was pretty much discarded in the 1950s. The reality today is what's called the "salad bowl." Many cultures that work side by side, but often remain distinct.

Europe has greater densities than ours by far. But to beat this drum again.... but we incarcerate a higher percentage of our citizens than any other developed nation by far. Hence the reason I am thinking I'll end up in Canada. It is a much nicer society. We think we are soooo special because we have a good economy and our military rules. But they share the values I consider more important.... the same freedoms with them being far more civil and humane.

[Justlooking]

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Justlooking@Dec 17 2005, 10:06 PM

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.  35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

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Good scripture JL... "Things That Make A Real Christian"...it's not political, or social, it's the spirit of Christ shown to others. By love, by service, by example, by attitude, by faith.

Well IMHO anyway.

[glindakc]

loving one another is definitely a large factor of christianity. and my definition definitely branches off of that. i think that a true christian serves others and focuses their life on finding and spreading truth, celebrating god, and helping others to come closer to him through faith, hope, charity and love.

[arw1000]

Originally posted by Josie@Dec 15 2005, 06:54 PM

To me a Christian is a person that believes in Christ.  A TRUE CHRISTIAN is one who practices what he says he believes.  Sometimes we profess to be something that our actions have no symbolance of showing.

It is hard to be a REAL christian and treat our neighbor worse than we would a dog.  It is sort of like Christmas, when we take the Christ out of it, there is not much left.

←

I'm sorry but a TRUE Christian is person that believes in ONE God and only one God and his son Jesus Christ how died on the cross for all sins. As a Christian we pray to Jesus every day to guid us. We all fall, we all sin, God knows that, with out the cross we all would be lost.

[StrawberryFields]

You mention the things that go on in SLC with protestors. I can only imagine what will happen on Friday with the JS Birthday Celebration going on down there. I do not have tickets to this event but I will be in at Temple Square with my Family. I have been there before and seen protestors and it is them I feel sorry for. When the LDS people come out in masses at such an event there is a real unspoken power that moves along with them...an energy.

[Winnie G]

Strawberry fields

real unspoken power that moves along with them...an energy.

You are so right there! There is a energy a feeling I loved just being there during conference on the grounds even when I did not have tickets for one of the sessions and we would sit on the grass and picnic at meal times.

There is no place like it, being in the shadow of the temple and hearing the Prophets voice.

It is my prayer that the protestors will take tomorrow off.