is mormon culture "doctrinal"?

[Guest mysticmorini]

Obviously no where in the scriptures does it say one must eat green jello at every meeting, but can one be a good mormon and escape mormon culture or be non-mormon culturally? seems like some aspects of mormon culture would be harder to escape than others, like modesty, but i know that pacific islander members are allowed to get tribal markings "tattoos" because of there secular cultural significance.

[Elgama]

do you mean Mormon Culture or do you mean American culture or Utah Culure, here in the UK jello isn't available for purchase, we do have jelly but green jelly is not the favrouite flavour certainly never seen carrots in it lol Even with modesty there are some variations never met a Latter Day Saint in the UK that felt the need to wear anymore swimming than a standard 1 piece etc

[MarginOfError]

I think he means mormon culturalisms. Some things that come to mind off the top of my head (not all of these are current practices)

• Only men give the closing prayer in Sacrament meeting
• A priesthood holder always gives the concluding remarks in Sacrament meeting
• Conservative politics--some examples that I've heard
  • "No good mormon can be a democrat"
  • Interpreting "Associating with groups whose teachings are contrary to the gospel" (temple recommend question) as a vote for the democratic party
  • "People who vote against Prop 8 should lose their temple recommend." (that was someone in my ward)
• Young Men's budgets more than double the size of Young Women's budgets
• Misandry
• Always home teaching on Sunday

I'm sure there are others. And yes, it is very possible to be a good member of the Church and escape mormon culture. In fact, I'd submit that those who escape mormon culture make better members of the Church than those that do not. But that's just my personal preference.

[hordak]

only to those who live that culture.

The culture is meant to "enforce" or make the doctrine easier to live.

Ex. Law of chastity is Doctrine

Don't date before 16, group dates, dancing a "book of Mormon apart" (do they still do that?)

Is culture meant to reinforce the doctrine. Many times people confuse the 2 and if they live the culture like doctrine they will teach it as such.

But going on a date a 15 is not a violation of doctrine.

[MarginOfError]

only to those who live that culture.

The culture is meant to "enforce" or make the doctrine easier to live.

Ex. Law of chastity is Doctrine

Don't date before 16, group dates, dancing a "book of Mormon apart" (do they still do that?)

Is culture meant to reinforce the doctrine. Many times people confuse the 2 and if they live the culture like doctrine they will teach it as such.

But going on a date a 15 is not a violation of doctrine.

That reminds me of Ward Council earlier this year. In a multi-ward planning meeting with the young men and young women, the young men voted to have an activity of ballroom dance instruction. So the activity was planned, instructors invited, and arrangements made. When this was brought up in ward council meeting, almost immediately, someone questioned (one of the more liberal members of the group even), "But wait...this activity can't include the deacons and beehives because they aren't 14 yet."

Mormon culture strikes again.

[cjmaldrich]

I've lived in Utah for two years now and have yet to partake of this infamous green jello with carrots I thought it would be the only thing I ate at church functions, and I haven't even seen it yet!

[Guest mysticmorini]

I've lived in Utah for two years now and have yet to partake of this infamous green jello with carrots I thought it would be the only thing I ate at church functions, and I haven't even seen it yet!

that is truly an anomaly, actually being a non-utah mormon and never having been to utah i have yet to see green jello with carrots or funeral potatoes!!

[Dravin]

I've lived in Utah for two years now and have yet to partake of this infamous green jello with carrots I thought it would be the only thing I ate at church functions, and I haven't even seen it yet!

Same here. Actually the one time I had paired veggies and Jello was in... I think Eastern Washington (may have been Northern Idaho).

[Wingnut]

The weirdest Jell-o/foreign object combination I ever had was a lemon-flavored Jell-o gelatin/pudding combo thing with shredded cheddar cheese in it. I'm ashamed to admit that it was actually not as bad as it sounds.

[rameumptom]

Mormon culturalism is a Utah thing for the most part. In other parts of the USA and especially other parts of the world, the culture is very different. In many parts of the world, Mormonism is very liberal, unlike American Mormons. In many parts of the world, green jello is not one of the main basic food groups.

I've intentionally lived outside Utah most of my adult life because I am not interested in many things within the Utah Mormon culture.

[sd22]

Don't date before 16

...

But going on a date a 15 is not a violation of doctrine.

Actually, it's don't group date until 16 and don't single off until 18 (but for men, basically 21). And no, it doesn't seem that this is doctrine, but it was spoken by the general authorities. (For a young man listening to a general authority say this in priesthood session, it basically seems like doctrine.)

And so it goes for other LDS traditions. They might not be doctrine, but many people believe they are (since some GA said it).

[sd22]

• Only men give the closing prayer in Sacrament meeting
• A priesthood holder always gives the concluding remarks in Sacrament meeting
• Conservative politics--some examples that I've heard
  • "No good mormon can be a democrat"
  • Interpreting "Associating with groups whose teachings are contrary to the gospel" (temple recommend question) as a vote for the democratic party
  • "People who vote against Prop 8 should lose their temple recommend." (that was someone in my ward)
• Young Men's budgets more than double the size of Young Women's budgets
• Misandry
• Always home teaching on Sunday

Again, basically all of these were originally preceded by a speech or regulation set forth by a general authority of the past. For example, if you listened to many of the general authority speeches from over half a century ago, you would conclude that it would be very difficult to be a Democrat and LDS simultaneously.

[Wingnut]

Again, basically all of these were originally preceded by a speech or regulation set forth by a general authority of the past. For example, if you listened to many of the general authority speeches from over half a century ago, you would conclude that it would be very difficult to be a Democrat and LDS simultaneously.

And yet, Elder Faust was the Utah State Democratic Party Chair.

Please show me where in a speech it was laid out that a man should always give the closing prayer in Sacrament meeting. Where was it said that, given two speakers in a Sacrament meeting, the latter should never be a female, but rather always and only a Priesthood-holding male? Please show me where a General Authority of the church said that the YM budgets should be larger than the YW budgets. Who taught that home teaching should always be done on a Sunday?

I think you'll find you're hard pressed to produce sources for any of these. So no, "basically all of these" were not "originally preceded by a speech or regulation set forth by a general authority of the past."

Edited March 16, 2010 by Wingnut
i before e...

[sd22]

I think you'll find you're hard pressed to produce sources for any of these. So no, "basically all of these" were not "originally preceded by a speech or regulation set forth by a general authority of the past."

Actually, I can provide sources if you'll be patient. You're jumping to conclusions. I've come across sources supporting all of these.

[sd22]

And yet, Elder Faust was the Utah State Democratic Party Chair.

Yes, Faust showed that it was possible to be both Democrat and LDS. I never said it was impossible.

[sd22]

Except for the misandry and specific examples of conservative politics given. Sorry, I should be more specific.

[Gwen]

the tradition of a man speaking last never really annoyed me till last sunday. we had the stake rs pres come visit our branch. she bore her testimony (very short) and her husband spoke last. i found this a bit confusing, especially when in his talk he said that when his wife was called as stake rs pres he was told he was being called to support her. he even said he was told driving her to the units she had to visit was part of that. i understand when the stake pres or someone's wife speaks or shares her testimony and then the meeting is closed by the person holding the calling (this is often done with the visiting member of the high counsel). but why was that not maintained when she was the one holding the calling and he was the supporting role? i will say that i'm not "upset" about it, just found it odd and mildly annoying. i also don't know all the details, maybe she gets tired of speaking or has limitations on it for some reason and his taking the bulk of the speaking responsibility is his being a help meet to her. i don't want to judge anyone involved in making the decision. i've never given the tradition much thought till then.

[Guest xforeverxmetalx]

only to those who live that culture.

The culture is meant to "enforce" or make the doctrine easier to live.

Ex. Law of chastity is Doctrine

Don't date before 16, group dates, dancing a "book of Mormon apart" (do they still do that?)

Is culture meant to reinforce the doctrine. Many times people confuse the 2 and if they live the culture like doctrine they will teach it as such.

But going on a date a 15 is not a violation of doctrine.

Hm... how do we know exactly what's culture and what's doctrine then?

Like, obviously green jello and such is just a Utah thing [living in GA most of my life, I don't think I've ever seen it at a church dinner or meal of any kind], but as far as not dating till 16... that's in For the Strength of Youth and I pretty much always considered that as good as doctrine. Maybe I'm just one of the ones confusing it, but... how do you know exactly with things like that? Modesty? Or any of the typical standards where breaking them wouldn't disqualify you for a temple recommend?

Sorry if that's a bit off topic, I've actually never heard before that dating before 16 wasn't so bad.

[MarginOfError]

Hm... how do we know exactly what's culture and what's doctrine then?

Like, obviously green jello and such is just a Utah thing [living in GA most of my life, I don't think I've ever seen it at a church dinner or meal of any kind], but as far as not dating till 16... that's in For the Strength of Youth and I pretty much always considered that as good as doctrine. Maybe I'm just one of the ones confusing it, but... how do you know exactly with things like that? Modesty? Or any of the typical standards where breaking them wouldn't disqualify you for a temple recommend?

Sorry if that's a bit off topic, I've actually never heard before that dating before 16 wasn't so bad.

Well let's add that to the list of mormon culturalisms...confusing doctrine and policy.

Doctrine comes from the scriptures, and when the scriptures aren't clear or need interpreting, the Lord will do so through his servants the prophets.

Policy, on the other hand, is an application of doctrine that is subject to change. Policy may be inspired, but we shouldn't be so attached to it that it shakes our faith when a policy is changed.

[MarginOfError]

Actually, it's don't group date until 16 and don't single off until 18 (but for men, basically 21). And no, it doesn't seem that this is doctrine, but it was spoken by the general authorities. (For a young man listening to a general authority say this in priesthood session, it basically seems like doctrine.)

And so it goes for other LDS traditions. They might not be doctrine, but many people believe they are (since some GA said it).

But not everything that a general authority says is doctrine. Often times, it is simply their interpretation of doctrine, or more correctly, their interpretation of how to apply the doctrine. While interpretations and applications are nice and helpful, they are not doctrine, and we ought to be clear with people, particularly our youth, what the difference is between doctrine and interpretation.

I look forward to seeing your references that preceded all of my examples as it will only go to prove my point about the failure we seem to have between distinguishing doctrine from policy and/or interpretation. Just because a general authority says it doesn't make it doctrine.

[MarginOfError]

Except for the misandry and specific examples of conservative politics given. Sorry, I should be more specific.

The misandry usually comes in the form of, "the men hold the priesthood because it's the only way they'll make it to heaven." As far as I can tell, this is a weak attempt at trying to reconcile the withholding of priesthood authority from women by the age-old classic argument "It isn't you, it's me."

It's as false and foolish to believe that men hold priesthood authority because they are worse than women as it is to believe that women aren't as good as men because they don't hold the priesthood.

Other such examples of misandry include implications that the men are good for loading/unloading trucks while the women are good at making the families feel welcome. There are other examples, but the short of it is that both men and women should be good at all of these things.

But Mormon culture has come to accept misandry as a form of penance for not extending the priesthood to women--an extremely foolish culturalism in the light of pure doctrine.

[Moksha]

Molds are for Jell-O, not Mormons. Best not to confuse one with the other.

[joheri]

What about NOT kneeling while partaking of the sacrament? Is that a cultural behavior? Why are we not doing it?

[Traveler]

As a Utah born and bred Mormon I love the Utah culture. I love the salmon bake in Payson, the fry sauce and cheese fries at Training Table, the ice cream at Letherby’s after Conference priesthood meeting, Dutch Oven ward bake offs, Johnson hot orange chocolate drink at winter and Christmas activities with chilly, polling kids in tubes behind 4 wheelers at ward winter campouts and the cheesy potatoes at funerals.

But you know what? I also love the Mormon culture everywhere I go. I love attending ward activities in Taiwan, Japan, Mexico, Canada, Ireland, Germany and anywhere else that will have me but I will not eat the stinky tofu of Taiwan. When going with the family on vacation we like to notify church leaders in the area we are visiting to see if there is a ward activity we can attend. On a number of occasions the local leaders have organized a ward activity just to accommodate us – what a way to become closer to our brothers and sisters outside of Utah. In turn I have envied many into my home when they have come for conference. I love the saints and their many traditions from every land. I hope that we will continue to have the influx of new members always bringing new traditions. Thanks to all that welcome Travelers journeying into strange new lands and places.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

What about NOT kneeling while partaking of the sacrament? Is that a cultural behavior? Why are we not doing it?

Because it is not necessary nor part of the covenant.

The Traveler