Faith without works

[Burst2Flame]

I was always curious as to what non-LDS mean when they say "just believe and be saved." I've been in many discussions with members of protestant religions and they say that works are good, but not necessary for salvation. So I just have a few questions for anyone that holds the "works arent needed" belief.

What does believing in Christ and accepting Him as your Savior mean? And how does one do that?

Can we be saved without sincerely trying to keep the commandments of the Lord?

After one has accepted Christ and been saved, can one fall from grace through sinful actions?

What if one man believes in Christ and does works, and one man believes in Christ and is lacking in his works. It is different for them in the judgement?

Edited March 19, 2010 by Burst2Flame

[marts1]

A lot of people like the easier way of living and will only do what is neccessary to survive half decently. This kind of attitude is found in many religions, particularly the ones that do not believe works are needed.

I myself would like it a lot if it were ok to pick and choose what to believe in scripture, but it just is not reality.

[Guest]

If you put "faith and works" in the search box (or a combination of those words) you'll get tons of hits. This has been discussed ad nauseam in this forum.

It's not sooo far out of a difference than most people think. You just have to define salvation better.

For non-LDS people who doesn't know anything about the degrees of glory then yes, having Faith in Christ is all that is needed for Salvation and works is irrelevant. This is the same as what LDS believe in although LDS also believe that you don't have to have a Faith in Christ while alive to be saved - you can do so in the Spirit World.

Note - being Saved means being saved from eternal damnation - that's Salvation that all men have gained through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Works does not come into play there.

Believe it or not, it is not such a surprise if we find out that Hitler got saved.

But, the question is - do you want to attain EXALTATION. Now that's a different discussion where works play an important role.

Edited March 19, 2010 by anatess

[Faded]

This can be a tricky subject for Latter Day Saints actually. We can sometimes tend to over-react in opposition to teachings on "saved by grace alone" and "once saved always saved." By reacting too far in the opposite direction, we can tend to over-emphasize the importance of works.

At the end of the day we're 100% reliant on the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We show our faith by our obedience in out behavior, sacred ordinances, etc. But everything points to salvation by grace.

[Burst2Flame]

Note - being Saved means being saved from eternal damnation - that's Salvation that all men have gained through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Works does not come into play there.

Well LDS believe that we are all saved from physical death with or without works. However I was under the impression that when mainstream Christianity says they are "saved" they are talking about overcoming spiritual death or sin. Is this not true?

[Guest]

Well LDS believe that we are all saved from physical death with or without works. However I was under the impression that when mainstream Christianity says they are "saved" they are talking about overcoming spiritual death or sin. Is this not true?

That is true. But, if you only know of a heaven and a hell, how do you explain spiritual death? You say, it is hell - which to LDS is outer darkness. In which case, it makes the statement false. If you sin, you don't go to outer darkness.

But if you believe in the 3 glories of heaven, then it makes more sense. So, it is still correct for non-LDS to say that Faith is enough for salvation.

So, instead of feeding the fire of contention, find the thing that is common between LDS and non-LDS and change your perspective of what they are saying to put it in context. Remember, it is not that they are wrong. It is only that theirs is not complete.

For mainstream non-LDS Christians, Faith LEADS to works. One cannot exist without the other. They have to believe this for there to be only one heaven. Catholics have purgatory - so they are almost there.

Remember Jesus teachings in Mark 12:28-34. When the scribe sincerely questioned His authority, instead of bashing his head with the doctrine that Jesus is God, Jesus instead replied, "Thou art not far from the Kingdom of God".

We need to follow this example.

[prisonchaplain]

I was always curious as to what non-LDS mean

Looks like I'm uniquely qualified to answer this one...

when they say "just believe and be saved." I've been in many discussions with members of protestant religions and they say that works are good, but not necessary for salvation.

It goes beyond not needing works. The belief is that works CANNOT save. That presenting our works to God in exchange for salvation is an insult to the Atonement Jesus provided. Salvation is considered a gift, so it cannot be earned. BUT, what may help you digest this is that salvation is seen as the beginning of new life, not the completion. Think of it more as conversion, than as having run the race, fought the fight, and earned the "well done good and faithful servant."

So I just have a few questions for anyone that holds the "works arent needed" belief.

What does believing in Christ and accepting Him as your Savior mean? And how does one do that?

You come just as you are. Admit your a sinner, Believe in Jesus, and Confess your sins, asking him to cleanse you and enter into your life.

Can we be saved without sincerely trying to keep the commandments of the Lord?

Again, if salvation is understood to be conversion, then you can't possibly do a thing to earn it. You come "just as I am, without one plea, but that thy blood was shed for me." Confess sins, ask Jesus to come into your life, and then, by his Spirit, you become empowered, and you do indeed begin to strive to keep commands and serve the LORD.

After one has accepted Christ and been saved, can one fall from grace through sinful actions?

I say yes. Some of my bretheren say no.

What if one man believes in Christ and does works, and one man believes in Christ and is lacking in his works. It is different for them in the judgement?

The Parable of the Sower has some producing a 30-fold harvest, others 60, and others 100-fold. My sense is that those who are faithful with much will be given much more in the Heavenly Kingdom. Those who are faithful with less will be given more modest responsibilities. None will be disappointed or shamed. All will rejoice.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I was going to ask this question before, but thought better of it, but now, I feel compelled. I'd like to know what non-LDS people think of my question below.

I was raised in an evangelical, born-again Christian family. As a teenager, I met with a minister and he taught me to pray, to accept God. Later, at the prompting of a different ministser, I said the sinner's prayer and sincerely wanted to follow the teachings of the Savior, believed his atonement, and felt a change come over me -- that and led to some great change of heart when I was teenager and a big deposit in my relationships with people around me. I also had an experience where I felt the Spirit come over me -- my father called "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" during my time of conversion.

Then I met LDS missionaries, and felt the Spirit guide me to become LDS and had those same 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' feelings when I prayed about whether I should be baptized into the LDS church.

So, with this dual background, am I "covered" (for lack of a better word) from both a non-LDS Christian perspective, and an LDS-Christian perspective (as far as one can feel saved until final judgement in our religion)? I've had spiritual experiences in both philosophies, and in my view, my current beliefs simply represent my continued following of the promptings of the Spirit and desire to follow the Savior.

So, if after this life is over, and the truth is emblazoned in reality and we will know the truth of all things without faith, because we will know all things, will I be covered having had dual experiences with salvation in this life?

Anti-Mormons need not respond....

[marts1]

It's a falsehood if you think being saved in 2 different religions will better your chances.

[prisonchaplain]

Mormonmusic, if you've find the Restored Gospel, then not only are you "double-covered," you're uniquely positioned to share your faith, being theologically "bilingual." If Joseph Smith was not a prophet, then you've given in to some very incorrect teachings. So, how wrong can you be, and still be okay with God? If you are wrong, is the Holy Spirit warning you? Are you simply not hearing, seeing...or are you willfully ignoring?

Many "Antis" will indeed simply condemn you. They'll either say you were never truly saved, or that you fell away. I thankfully leave all that to God, and simply suggest you continue to seek after God. With a sincere heart, you'll surely find him and what He wants for you.

[Soninme]

John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine ;

32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

[sjdean]

Interesting topic. Im non-LDS - CofE here. Still pretty new, but we've been going through Galatians which is great.

My understanding is that obviously before Christianity, Jews had a load of their own laws which was impossible to keep. Paul points back to Abraham saying he was saved by faith alone and the main two commandments we as Christians have to take on is there is only one god - obey him, and love you neighbour as yourself, and these two, hang the law and the prophets.

Paul takes it one step further I understand in saying if anyone preaches anything other this, adding rules and regulations, let them be condemned.

As to works vs faith, the way I understand it, it is only through the grace of God that we are saved - there's nothing we can do to be saved. We are all sinners, we are all imperfect. So we have to seek forgiveness through the grace of god.

Good works do not bring us to faith or God, but faith and being close to God brings us to do good works.

Peace and Love all!

Cheers

Simon

[Burst2Flame]

It goes beyond not needing works. The belief is that works CANNOT save. That presenting our works to God in exchange for salvation is an insult to the Atonement Jesus provided. Salvation is considered a gift, so it cannot be earned. BUT, what may help you digest this is that salvation is seen as the beginning of new life, not the completion. Think of it more as conversion, than as having run the race, fought the fight, and earned the "well done good and faithful servant."

LDS also believe that salvation is a gift from God. However that doesn't mean he hands out eternal life to everyone that says they believe in Christ. They must prove they believe in Christ by keeping His commandments or they might end up like the scribes and Pharisees.

Matt 15:8-9

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

One of the main reasons we are here on earth is to prove to the Lord that we love Him and want to follow Him. Keeping His commandents spiritually, emotionally, mentally, and physically are the ways we do this.

You come just as you are. Admit your a sinner, Believe in Jesus, and Confess your sins, asking him to cleanse you and enter into your life.

All of these are works, and all very important in being purified.

Again, if salvation is understood to be conversion, then you can't possibly do a thing to earn it. You come "just as I am, without one plea, but that thy blood was shed for me." Confess sins, ask Jesus to come into your life, and then, by his Spirit, you become empowered, and you do indeed begin to strive to keep commands and serve the LORD.

I agree that salvation isn't earned, it's accepted, but you cannot be converted without doing works. True conversion comes to us with the principle taught by John.

John 7:17

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Works of faith must come before one is truly converted and then must also continue on after the conversion.

[prisonchaplain]

LDS also believe that salvation is a gift from God. However that doesn't mean he hands out eternal life to everyone that says they believe in Christ. They must prove they believe in Christ by keeping His commandments or they might end up like the scribes and Pharisees.

Matt 15:8-9

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So, is salvation mine to gain, or mine to lose? From my perspective, when I sincerely convert, I have indeed gained eternal life. It's mine. But, if I squander it, neglect it, or reject it, it's mine to lose. What you suggest seems a contrast. You seem to suggest that conversion merely allows one to make the attempt. Salvation would seem to remain allusive--something to be gained. Have I read you wrong?

[Faded]

The error that is all too common is pitting faith against works. I see no evidence that any of the New Testament writers ever intended to make that case.

Belief without works isn't faith. Works without belief is useless and it is equally useless to try to work your way to heaven (both are dead works.) The truth of the matter is that faith includes both belief and works. Without both, it isn't faith.

When we fall into debates pitting works against faith, we often find ourselves pitting one scripture against another. I don't believe God intended for that to happen. I believe that we take all scriptures together to get the truest picture of God's truth.

[Faded]

So, is salvation mine to gain, or mine to lose? From my perspective, when I sincerely convert, I have indeed gained eternal life. It's mine. But, if I squander it, neglect it, or reject it, it's mine to lose. What you suggest seems a contrast. You seem to suggest that conversion merely allows one to make the attempt. Salvation would seem to remain allusive--something to be gained. Have I read you wrong?

I think it is a common LDS misconception. We covenant with Christ and stay within our covenant, then we have every expectation of receiving eternal life.

If we do not live faithfully, then we are not keeping our covenant. If we indulge in sins, then we're not keeping our covenant. If God commands and we do not obey then we are breaking our covenant.

We stay within the covenant with full assurance of eternal life when we do our best, do good works, and rely on Christ to make up for the fact that we'll never be perfect in this lifetime.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Mormonmusic, if you've find the Restored Gospel, then not only are you "double-covered," you're uniquely positioned to share your faith, being theologically "bilingual." If Joseph Smith was not a prophet, then you've given in to some very incorrect teachings. So, how wrong can you be, and still be okay with God? If you are wrong, is the Holy Spirit warning you? Are you simply not hearing, seeing...or are you willfully ignoring?

I had to answer this -- I don't think I've ever been willfully ignoring...I remember when being taught by the missionaries I actually sent them away and stopped going to Church because I didn't have the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" experience that I had as a teenager in my born-again Christian family. And this was after fasting for 3 days solid on one occasion (I kid you not -- I did it).

This "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" was the only thing I trusted when trying to determine the truth because arguments on both sides were so convincing, and the claims were as equally unverifiable objectively, in my view.

After I sent the missionaries away and stopped going to LDS church, the problem of discerning truth from error bothered me, and I felt the LDS Church still had merits on a logical basis, and I was impressed with the orderliness and fruits I saw in the lives of the people who introduced it to me -- in my journal, I called it "the Mormon question" and pondered it regularly.

After a year of not praying about it, I asked God againn, once, if what the LDS missionaries taught was true -- almost on a whim, and had the Baptism of the Holy Spirit experience again for several minutes. It was unmistakable to me, and the same thing I experienced as a teenager, so I immediately went to baptism.

Anyway, I share this as background, because I searched long and hard...and trusted the Holy Spirit, in my view. I don't have any reason for sharing this, other than to share that I sought the Spirit very diligently.

But I have to confess -- this world can be confusing, and I view all spiritual matters with what my professors called "a healthy skepticism" -- meaning, I live the principles I've aligned myself with, have faith in them, and do my best, but I feel that I'll only really know for absolute surety when I pass from this earth and see what's on the other side...eventually.

To answer your other question "How Wrong Can You Be and still be right with God?". That's a hard one -- one thing I told my father who said "I'm concerned about your salvation because you joined the LDS Church" was this -- the LDS Church seemed to require a higher level of commitment and sacrifice than our local family Church, so, if I could do that, and also believe in Christ as my Savior, then I must at least meet the standards of his own religion....

Thanks for responding to my question, though -- both of you, I appreciate hearing yours or others' perspectives -- sans anti-Mormons. As you may remember from my other posts, the anti's lost their influence over me years ago due to their behavior.

[Dominic_Korozya]

I was always curious as to what non-LDS mean when they say "just believe and be saved." I've been in many discussions with members of protestant religions and they say that works are good, but not necessary for salvation. So I just have a few questions for anyone that holds the "works arent needed" belief.

What does believing in Christ and accepting Him as your Savior mean? And how does one do that?

Can we be saved without sincerely trying to keep the commandments of the Lord?

After one has accepted Christ and been saved, can one fall from grace through sinful actions?

What if one man believes in Christ and does works, and one man believes in Christ and is lacking in his works. It is different for them in the judgement?

Wow, look at that, something we can agree on for a change!

[johnspells]

I strongly believe that there is no meaning to have a faith if you are not doing any kind of work. For example I have a faith in god that he will never hurt me, I have a faith that my family will get the food, and because of faith I am not doing any job any work just setting at home and praying to god. Will it give food to my family, the answer is no. You have a faith that's true but that doesn't mean that you don't do anything. So faith is necessary in the sense that god is always with me.

[Guest CedarCityCougar]

Well LDS believe that we are all saved from physical death with or without works. However I was under the impression that when mainstream Christianity says they are "saved" they are talking about overcoming spiritual death or sin. Is this not true?

Yes,

In denom and non-denom venues, being saved means, being saved from eternal damnation (separation from God)That's it!!!

It's pretty simple.

Edited May 10, 2010 by CedarCityCougar

[Hemidakota]

I was always curious as to what non-LDS mean when they say "just believe and be saved." I've been in many discussions with members of protestant religions and they say that works are good, but not necessary for salvation. So I just have a few questions for anyone that holds the "works arent needed" belief.

What does believing in Christ and accepting Him as your Savior mean? And how does one do that?

Can we be saved without sincerely trying to keep the commandments of the Lord?

After one has accepted Christ and been saved, can one fall from grace through sinful actions?

What if one man believes in Christ and does works, and one man believes in Christ and is lacking in his works. It is different for them in the judgement?

Or LDS members who believe by our own works we shall be saved.

[Soninme]

Every time I see or read "faith without works" I think of the song from Newsboys. (I think Newsboys)

The lyrics go; "faith without works is like a song you can't sing........ and like a screendoor on a submarine."

Not a blockbuster song but sticks in my head though.

[Carl62]

What I don't understand is that if it's all about having faith and works are secondary, then why did Jesus say to the rich man that the way to heaven was all about obedience to the ten commandments? (Luke 18: 18-20) He didn't answer by saying that it was just about accepting Him and that the commandments weren't important, or that his works would come later as a result of his belief in Him. He clearly said that it was about obedience to his commandments FIRST, yet we as LDS are told that we're "wrong" in thinking this? It seems like our thinking is more aligned with what the Saviour taught as opposed to the 'saved' denominations who seem to base their whole entire belief on eternal salvation on one or two verses from the apostle Paul. Even the apostle James seems to side more with what Jesus taught over what Paul says. (James 2:14-17) Nothing against what the apostle Paul wrote, but if I have to choose between what Paul wrote and what Jesus spoke, then for me it would be a no-brainer that I would go with what the Saviour taught.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Carl62

[Soninme]

What I don't understand is that if it's all about having faith and works are secondary, then why did Jesus say to the rich man that the way to heaven was all about obedience to the ten commandments? (Luke 18: 18-20) He didn't answer by saying that it was just about accepting Him and that the commandments weren't important, or that his works would come later as a result of his belief in Him. He clearly said that it was about obedience to his commandments FIRST, yet we as LDS are told that we're "wrong" in thinking this? It seems like our thinking is more aligned with what the Saviour taught as opposed to the 'saved' denominations who seem to base their whole entire belief on eternal salvation on one or two verses from the apostle Paul. Even the apostle James seems to side more with what Jesus taught over what Paul says. (James 2:14-17) Nothing against what the apostle Paul wrote, but if I have to choose between what Paul wrote and what Jesus spoke, then for me it would be a no-brainer that I would go with what the Saviour taught.

Hello Carl,

My understanding (I'm not LDS) of Luke 18:18-20 and also Mathew 19:16-26 is not that Jesus was telling the young man that obedience to the ten commandments is the way to enter eternal life, that is law, not gospel.

Before showing him the way to eternal life, Jesus wanted to show him, and us, the righteous standard required by God and the total futility of seeking salvation by his own merits.

No one, except Christ, can keep the commandments (Math. 19:17) yet this self-righteous young man wouldn't admit his sin.

The commandments (the law) show us how sinful we are (Galatians 3:24) then knowing our depravity we fall at the feet of Christ and He saves us, not because we have kept the commandments or done other good works (Titus 3:5) but only because we believe. Genesis 15:6 And he (Abram) believed in the Lord and He accounted it to him as righteousness.(also Gal. 3:6) (James 2:23)

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Clearly our works don't save us nor do they keep us saved.

As for James he begins with the testing of our faith (1:3) and that faith is a gift (1: 17-18)

He is saying there is a faith that isn't really a faith but dead and does not save, one that is just a mental assent to the facts about Christ like the demons have. (2:19)

James isn't contrasting two methods of salvation (faith versus works) instead he contrasts two kinds of faith; one that is a living faith that saves and a dead faith, or "said faith" that doesn't.

Living faith produces works, dead faith, or a "said faith" doesn't.

Our works, or lack of, show our faith but we are not saved by them.

Isaiah 64:5-7

5 You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,

Who remembers You in Your ways.

You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—

In these ways we continue;

And we need to be saved.

6 But we are all like an unclean thing,

And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;

We all fade as a leaf,

And our iniquities, like the wind,

Have taken us away.

7 And there is no one who calls on Your name,

Who stirs himself up to take hold of You;

For You have hidden Your face from us,

And have consumed us because of our iniquities.

Jesus and the apostles are all in agreement.

[Hemidakota]

Rich men who are otherwise worthy can be saved provided [Elder McConkie]:

(1) They forsake or are willing to forsake their riches in the cause of Christ; and

(2) Their love of wealth does not cause them to trust in riches. (DNTC 1:556.)

It has been asserted that the term "needle's eye" was applied to a small door or wicket set in or alongside the great gates in the walls of cities; and the assumption has been raised that Jesus had such a wicket in mind when He spoke of the seeming impossibility of a camel passing through a needle's eye. It would be possible though very difficult for a camel to squeeze its way through the little gate, and it could in no wise do so except when relieved of its load and stripped of all its harness.

If this conception be correct, we may find additional similitude between the fact that the camel must first be unloaded and stripped, however costly its burden or rich its accoutrement, and the necessity of the rich young ruler, and so of any man divesting himself of the burden and trappings of wealth, if he would enter by the narrow way that leadeth into the kingdom. The Lord's exposition of His saying is all-sufficient for the purposes of the lesson: "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (see Matt. 19:26.) (see JTC, pp. 485-86.)

I credit this to Daniel Ludlow, a wonderful friend.