Meat

[Rydney]

It's simple enough, the commandment not to eat meat unless in times of cold/winter/famine, and given how often a modern mormon finds themselves in a position of starving or eating meat, this means it should be eaten pretty much never. So why is this totally overlooked by all but two members I've ever met in my entire life, and worse yet, why do member tell me I'm wrong when the commandment is right there, it's not like I made it up, and even worse, this commandment is for the "least of ye" so what gives people, why doesn't anyone care about this but whoa nelly if someone drinks a cup of coffee?

[Faded]

It's simple enough, the commandment not to eat meat unless in times of cold/winter/famine, and given how often a modern mormon finds themselves in a position of starving or eating meat, this means it should be eaten pretty much never. So why is this totally overlooked by all but two members I've ever met in my entire life, and worse yet, why do member tell me I'm wrong when the commandment is right there, it's not like I made it up, and even worse, this commandment is for the "least of ye" so what gives people, why doesn't anyone care about this but whoa nelly if someone drinks a cup of coffee?

A.) The wording of that particular part of the Word of Wisdom (aka good advice) seems to suggest that this is not as much of an absolute.

B.) One must take this passage and balance it with:

Doctrine and Covenants 49:18-19

18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

Agreed that meat is probably overconsumed in the Church, but prohibiting it would contradict D&C 49.

It's an interesting balancing act. Many members do become vegetarians of course.

[Traveler]

It's simple enough, the commandment not to eat meat unless in times of cold/winter/famine, and given how often a modern mormon finds themselves in a position of starving or eating meat, this means it should be eaten pretty much never. So why is this totally overlooked by all but two members I've ever met in my entire life, and worse yet, why do member tell me I'm wrong when the commandment is right there, it's not like I made it up, and even worse, this commandment is for the "least of ye" so what gives people, why doesn't anyone care about this but whoa nelly if someone drinks a cup of coffee?

My refrigerator and freezer are capable of maintaining an environment of cold and winter year round – something not available when the commandment was given.

The Traveler

[Rydney]

A.) The wording of that particular part of the Word of Wisdom (aka good advice) seems to suggest that this is not as much of an absolute.

This is not accurate, as this commandment is is the WOW, making it as applicable as the commandment against alcohol and tobacco, and this argument is another problem I have, as members who espouse this have only repeated what they are told and not read it truly for themselves, as it is very clear when read. How do you see this as advice when it is in the WOW?

B.) One must take this passage and balance it with:

Quote:

Doctrine and Covenants 49:18-19

18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

And whoso forbiddeth (who forbids) to abstain from meats (anyone who forbids the abstaining from meats, meaning if you forbid me from being vegan). This passage only further proves my point.

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

The beasts of the field (used to produce food, not become it) and fowls of the air (could go either way) and that which cometh of the earth (plants) is ordained for the use (not the eating) of man for food and for raiment... This can easily be read to mean that the animals are to be used to help produce the food, not be it, but that is my point exactly, mormons always want this to mean they can eat meat, but that means it contradicts the WOW, so that means it should be read to mean that animals are to produce food, not be it, and that would be in line with the WOW, so why would anyone read it to contradict? This is exactly my point, the arguments for eating meat make no sense.

Agreed that meat is probably overconsumed in the Church, but prohibiting it would contradict D&C 49

Exactly, which is why it should NOT be read that way...

[Rydney]

"My refrigerator and freezer are capable of maintaining an environment of cold and winter year round – something not available when the commandment was given."

Exactly, which is why you have no excuse for eating meat, since you can refrigerate non-animal food year round, which could not be done when the commandment was given and often the only food available in winter time was that which came from the killing of a live animal. You don't have that problem, and therefore have no excuse.

[BenRaines]

Are you absolute on all the commandments that we have been given or is it just this one? Curious.

Ben Raines

[Rydney]

Are you absolute on all the commandments that we have been given or is it just this one? Curious.

Ben Raines

I don't think I understand your question Ben, I have read what is given and that's that, it's not about being absolute, it's just about reading what is in the scripture and wondering why it is almost always interpreted to mean the very opposite. I would also like to know why "hot drinks" are interpreted to mean coffee when that is not to be found anywhere in the scriptures, but eating meat is, and yet it is ignored, denied, or often times angrily defended.

[Faded]

Hey Rydney, I can see that your new to the forum and all. Please use the QUOTE button. It makes it easier to sort out where your quotation of another person ends and your words begin.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Faded

[Wingnut]

http://www.lds.net/forums/health-exercise/16965-word-wisdom-meat.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/learn-about-mormon-church/15509-words-wisdom.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/15250-word-wisdom-vegetarianism.html

[Wingnut]

I would also like to know why "hot drinks" are interpreted to mean coffee when that is not to be found anywhere in the scriptures, but eating meat is, and yet it is ignored, denied, or often times angrily defended.

From Joseph Smith:

"I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'" (as quoted in Word of Wisdom by John A. Widtsoe, pp 85-86)

From Hyrum Smith:

"And again, ;hot drinks are not for the body, or belly;' there are many who wonder what this can mean; whether it refers to tea, or coffee, or not. I say it does refer to tea, and coffee." (as quoted in "The Word of Wisdom," Times and Seasons, 1 June 1842, p 800)

From Brigham Young:

"This Word of Wisdom prohibits the use of hot drinks and tobacco. I have heard it argued that tea and coffee are not mentioned therein; that is very true; but what were the people in the habit of taking as hot drinks when that revelation was given? Tea and coffee. We were not in the habit of drinking water very hot, but tea and coffee—the beverages in common use." (DBY, 182)

I'm so sick of people making this argument. How many more references do you want?

[Faded]

A.) The wording of that particular part of the Word of Wisdom (aka good advice) seems to suggest that this is not as much of an absolute.

This is not accurate, as this commandment is is the WOW, making it as applicable as the commandment against alcohol and tobacco, and this argument is another problem I have, as members who espouse this have only repeated what they are told and not read it truly for themselves, as it is very clear when read. How do you see this as advice when it is in the WOW?

B.) One must take this passage and balance it with:

Quote:

Doctrine and Covenants 49:18-19

18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

And whoso forbiddeth (who forbids) to abstain from meats (anyone who forbids the abstaining from meats, meaning if you forbid me from being vegan). This passage only further proves my point.

Actually, you have the context of the passage wrong here. The wording is odd, I'll give you that. But this revelation was directed to the Shakers. Among other things, the Shakers prohibited the consumption of pork. This passage is in direct response to that prohibition.

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

---

The beasts of the field (used to produce food, not become it) and fowls of the air (could go either way) and that which cometh of the earth (plants) is ordained for the use (not the eating) of man for food and for raiment... This can easily be read to mean that the animals are to be used to help produce the food, not be it, but that is my point exactly, mormons always want this to mean they can eat meat, but that means it contradicts the WOW, so that means it should be read to mean that animals are to produce food, not be it, and that would be in line with the WOW, so why would anyone read it to contradict? This is exactly my point, the arguments for eating meat make no sense.

---

Exactly, which is why it should NOT be read that way...

You're inserting a lot of things here with no basis for it.

If you want to be a vegetarian, go for it. If I eat steak, it's not endangering my eternal salvation. Vegetarians gain a lot of heath benefits, but more than half of the essential proteins cannot be found in plants.

I've known a few vegetarians who were ordered by their doctor to work some meat into their diet for health reasons.

[Rydney]

From Joseph Smith:

"I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'" (as quoted in Word of Wisdom by John A. Widtsoe, pp 85-86)

From Hyrum Smith:

"And again, ;hot drinks are not for the body, or belly;' there are many who wonder what this can mean; whether it refers to tea, or coffee, or not. I say it does refer to tea, and coffee." (as quoted in "The Word of Wisdom," Times and Seasons, 1 June 1842, p 800)

From Brigham Young:

"This Word of Wisdom prohibits the use of hot drinks and tobacco. I have heard it argued that tea and coffee are not mentioned therein; that is very true; but what were the people in the habit of taking as hot drinks when that revelation was given? Tea and coffee. We were not in the habit of drinking water very hot, but tea and coffee—the beverages in common use." (DBY, 182)

I'm so sick of people making this argument. How many more references do you want?

I'm new to this, but I have to ask, are any of these scripture? If not, why are they relevant? If so, I am wrong, but this still does not explain why meat is forbidden except in times described and is eaten constantly, making the eating of meat at least as forbidden as the drinking of coffee, if those are scripture references.

[pam]

Are you saying only scriptures are relevant and not the words of our Prophets?

[Faded]

Further counsel from prophets explaining and expounding the intended meaning of the revelation is perfectly valid and shouldn't be thrown aside. Joseph Smith himself and countless prophets since have confirmed that "hot drinks" specifically meant coffee and tea.

Cocaine, marijuana, heroine and angel dust are not specifcally mentioned in the Word of Wisdom. Using them is still a violation to God's commandments.

[Rydney]

Actually, you have the context of the passage wrong here. The wording is odd, I'll give you that. But this revelation was directed to the Shakers. Among other things, the Shakers prohibited the consumption of pork. This passage is in direct response to that prohibition.

You're inserting a lot of things here with no basis for it.

If you want to be a vegetarian, go for it. If I eat steak, it's not endangering my eternal salvation. Vegetarians gain a lot of heath benefits, but more than half of the essential proteins cannot be found in plants.

I've known a few vegetarians who were ordered by their doctor to work some meat into their diet for health reasons.

Those vegetarians you knew were not eating a healthy vegetarian diet, the meat added nothing to their diet they could not get from plants, but that is beside the issue. Telling me I have no basis explains nothing as to why this commandment is ignored, and doesn't really say anything anyway, I could tell you you have no basis, but what does that accomplish? Your reference to the quakers I will have to look up, but it seems odd that a statement that says you cannot forbid me to abstain from eating meat would mean the exact opposite.

[Rydney]

Further counsel from prophets explaining and expounding the intended meaning of the revelation is perfectly valid and shouldn't be thrown aside. Joseph Smith himself and countless prophets since have confirmed that "hot drinks" specifically meant coffee and tea.

Cocaine, marijuana, heroine and angel dust are not specifcally mentioned in the Word of Wisdom. Using them is still a violation to God's commandments.

Very well, then why do you eat meat?

[Rydney]

Are you saying only scriptures are relevant and not the words of our Prophets?

No, but what I am saying is that if it is in the scriptures it is beyond doubt, and as the commandment against meat is in the scriptures it is beyond doubt. You have to search outside of them for commandments against coffee and tea and would never touch those, but you have no problem consuming what is actually in the scriptures. If you don't want converts to read these books why do you give them to us?

[Traveler]

"My refrigerator and freezer are capable of maintaining an environment of cold and winter year round – something not available when the commandment was given."

Exactly, which is why you have no excuse for eating meat, since you can refrigerate non-animal food year round, which could not be done when the commandment was given and often the only food available in winter time was that which came from the killing of a live animal. You don't have that problem, and therefore have no excuse.

I am not sure you understand the importance of meat in healthy diet. I am a little older now and no longer compete like I use to but when I was in training for any century or greater ride, meat was an important part of my diet, especially following the event. Now days so many cyclists use various drugs (and other things) to enhance energy and stamina that it may not seem so important. But for those of us that train based only on diet and exercise understand the importance of animal protein in our diet.

The scriptures are clear (including the Word of Wisdom) – that all things (including meat and non-meat) should be used with prudence. Meat should be used sparingly – that does not mean to go without; cutting it completely out of our diets.

The Traveler

[Faded]

Very well, then why do you eat meat?

You appear to have come to the forum for no reason other than debate. At this point, I've lost interest. Good night.

[Rydney]

I am not sure you understand the importance of meat in healthy diet. I am a little older now and no longer compete like I use to but when I was in training for any century or greater ride, meat was an important part of my diet, especially following the event. Now days so many cyclists use various drugs (and other things) to enhance energy and stamina that it may not seem so important. But for those of us that train based only on diet and exercise understand the importance of animal protein in our diet.

The scriptures are clear (including the Word of Wisdom) – that all things (including meat and non-meat) should be used with prudence. Meat should be used sparingly – that does not mean to go without; cutting it completely out of our diets.

The Traveler

There is nothing in animal protein that you cannot get from plants, and actually the digesting of animal protein is damaging in many ways. There are many world class athletes who choose to be vegan because it enhances there abilities, so you are wrong there I'm afraid. What you say about prudence regarding meat is also wrong, as the scriptures clearly state when it is okay to eat meat, and as I explained earlier, in modern times it is next to never that you would be in those situations. Why are the arguments for eating meat never based on scripture, except to reverse what the scripture actually says?

[Rydney]

You appear to have come to the forum for no reason other than debate. At this point, I've lost interest. Good night.

I am sorry that open debate is a problem for you, but it is not for me, and if you lose interest in honest debates in which valid points are made that you disagree with... well, that is something you should think about. I was given a set of scriptures by the missionaries and I read them, and what I read contradicts what I see at Church, and I wanted to know why. I am disappointed that all I found here was contention and anger. Good luck to you.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Rydney

[pam]

On another website that I assist with, there was a question and answer that I have come to enjoy. Forgive me for quoting it here:

Dear Gramps,

There’s something I struggle with as a member of the Mormon Church. When was a revelation received that said meat was okay to eat or is the only part of the Word of Wisdom that allows people to be temple worthy is to abstain from coffee, tea, tobacco, or alcohol? Is it a sin to not eat meat? Can one gain exaltation if they choose not to? I want your answer on this.

Derek

Dear Derek,

In partial answer to your question, the comma in verse 13 of Section 89 is of particular significance. With that comma in place, in the phraseit is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine, the word only could be replaced by except, suggesting that meat should not be eaten when those severe conditions did not obtain. However, that comma did not appear in the original version of the Doctrine and Covenants, nor in subsequent versions, until the 1920 version when the Doctrine and Covenants was divided into columns. Without that comma, in the phraseit is pleasing unto me that they should not be used only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine, the word only, implies that it is proper to eat meat during those severe conditions, and also during other times as well. In this context the word only could be replaced by the word just.

When the question of where that comma came from was posed to Elder Bruce R. McConkie, his reply was, “We eat meat in the winter, we eat meat in the spring, we eat meat in the summer, we eat meat in the fall. As to where that comma came from, I have no idea.”

That interpretation of verse 13 is consistent with D&C 49:19-

For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

Now, looking at D&C 89:13-14,

All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth; And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

We observe here that different classes of animals are mentioned-beasts of the field, fowls and wild animals. The pronoun these in verse 14 refers only to its antecedent wild animals, not to all animals. Thus, wild animals should not be used for food except in times of famine and excess of hunger. This is consistent with the phrase in D&C 49:21,

And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

The idea of hunting wild animals for sport or for food when the meat of domestic animals (beasts of the field) is abundant is repulsive to the Lord, and those who indulge in such destruction of this class of God’s creatures will be held accountable for their actions.

However, the injunction is given in D&C 89:12 that the flesh of domestic animals and fowls should be eaten sparingly,

Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly.

So it would seem from the above that it is not against the will of the Lord to eat the meat of domesticated animals at any season of the year, but to do so sparingly; the interpretation of the word sparingly being left to the judgement of each individual.

Gramps

[Rydney]

On another website that I assist with, there was a question and answer that I have come to enjoy. Forgive me for quoting it here:

I am amazed that you can just disregard a comma and decide that the scriptures do not say what they say... more disappointment.

[pam]

Okay I'm done with you.

[Suzie]

Rydney the topic is very touchy within the church membership because as it was pointed out, a lot of our members of the Church love to eat meat and some of them do it in excess (every single day). I agree with your points.