unclean spirits and sin

[Gwen]

this is a branch off from another thread where sin and the influence of unclean spirits came up. seemed like it deserved it's own thread. i do want to say that though this came up in the thread discussing homosexuality this thread is not to discuss that. i would like to keep it about sin in general. this isn't necessarily about possession (though that would fit) but about the influences around us.

my thoughts. i don't think unclean spirits cause us to sin. i do think when we choose to sin we do invite unclean spirits around us. i think those spirits can influence us toward other variations/deeper into that sin. i don't think sin is the result of possession. i know church leaders have said that mental illness is not the result of possession.

i found traveler's comments about the counselor's office very interesting. i can see some logic to it (though i'm not sure i "believe" it yet) if you go to the counselor to talk about your "sin" struggles, then you invite those spirits to be with you. the next person comes in to talk about their issues though different there is some connection there, then that person starts to feel the influence and also fall into those temptations.

those that posted in the other thread feel free to copy your posts here if you want them to be part of this discussion. we'll see where this goes. lol

[Wisc]

Do you believe in Heaven and Hell? How about what comes out of each?

Look, I see terrible things every day. A mother drowns her baby. A ten-year-old shoots his father. But it's not demons, it's the evil that men do.

And while its true, we're capable of terrible things; we usually justify it with motives like money and power and jealousy... Then sometimes, something comes along and gives us just the right nudge and we do truly evil things just for the kick of it. Dont believe in demons? You should. They believe in us. Heaven and Hell are right here, behind every wall, every face --

the world behind the world. It's crossing over that's the real trick. That's why most demons can only whisper in our ears. But even a whisper can turn your favorite pleasure into your worst nightmare.

[Gwen]

here are the quotes from the other thread (i think i got them all) that prompted this thread. reminder: these quotes do talk about homosexuality as part of this because that was the topic of the other thread. i would like to avoid that focus. just sin in general.

Interesting post. There was an ancient doctrine that there is a connection between spirit and the functioning of the physical in the empirical universe. That is, that all that happens in the physical is the direct result of spirit influence. This doctrine implies that there are 3 possibilities for an individual’s behavior. 1. Choices involving their unique spirit. 2. Influences of Holy spirits or Holy Spirit. And 3. Influences of unclean spirits.

There are several instances where an individual was cured when Jesus cast out the unclean spirit that was influencing their behavior. We also learn of instances from the Book of Mormon where individuals that were being influenced by unclean spirits that when the unclean spirits were “cast out” that the individuals longed for and wished for the return of the unclean spirit.

I know a very successful LDS psychologist and MD that believes that any troubled individual (especially and individual spiritually troubled) are experiencing influences from unclean spirits.

The Traveler

Traveler: I very much believe that. Perhaps too much :) I've even considered and wondered over the possibility that being gay is the result of some sort of unclean spirit. Of course I don't believe that now, because the church has said the attractions are not "wrong." And how would such a spirit be given dominion over a soul who has not reached the age of accountibility?

Related and not: during some of the toughtest times of my life I've wondered how well I knew Satan in the pre-existance. Personally, I don't think he and I would have gotten along. But I've often wondered if I didn't have a close friend up there who knew all my secrets, who perhaps followed Satan's plan. Perhaps it isn't Satan I need to be most afraid of, but the spirits who followed him who knew me even better than he did.

Sorry to go off on this tangent. I realize that what makes a person gay isn't really as important as what they do once they realize they are - but this discussion is kind of fun =).

There is an interesting biblical account of Jesus casting out an unclean spirit from a child found in Mark 9 starting with verse 14. In verse 21 Jesus asked how long the child had been afflicted – The father responds and says “Of a child”. The direct translation is since the child was an infant. This would indicate that the unclean spirit had dominated the child before the age of accountability. It is my understanding that children can sin before they are accountable but that they will not be held responsible.

It is also interesting that in severe cases of unclean spirit influence Jesus did not indicate that such influence is necessarily associated with sin or that the individual simply needed to repent to be rid of the unclean spirit.

This may sound interesting but my physiologist friend discovered that many times his patents started exhibiting a problem afflicting their previous patent. He was able to end this problem by using the priesthood to bless (or cleans) his office after each patent. This would indicate that a unclean spirit could be passed on by “carriers” if you will and not necessary directly associated to the individual that is influenced.

I have a rather interesting article concerning this if you are interested - and if I can find it. It is not on the internet I would have to e-mail it.

The Traveler

Traveler: Interesting. PM me and I'll send you my email address. Of course, I do think the idea that an unclean spirit is to blame for people doing something that is not in harmony with the gospel is a little bit anti-agency. How could a person be blamed for their own actions, and judged accordingly, if it isn't the fault of person to begin with?

Say I'm possessed. I certainly didn't let an evil spirit into my body on purpose when I was six. How can I be held accountable for actions that would result that I otherwise wouldn't have committed? It seems very against the plan of salvation to me for God to allow an evil spirit to enter someone without their consent only to then cast blame on person who was possessed.

Not to mention the amount of priesthood blessings I've received on the issue... haha...

But it is a theory. Not sure it is one I believe, but interesting to consider nonetheless.

Local: I think the only thing that I can't draw a parallel between is that a drug addict must sin before he has consequences for his actions. A gay person can know he is gay, and struggle with being gay, long long long before he ever acts (as I've said before, in my case that was over 12 years). A drug addiction, and the resulting longing, is the consequence of a bad choice. That is not true about homosexuality - or if it is, the choice would have to be made at an extremely young age (most psychologists agree that sexuality is more or less determined in males by the time they are 2 to 3).

I can't imagine God holding a child accountable for a choice made at that age (if it is a choice) that would literally ruin his chances of having a normal "approved" family in this life.

[LocalFarms]

I believe every time you choose to sin you are inviting an unclean spirit possession over you. To the greater extent that you sin you give greater control to an unclean spirit in possession over you.

[Elgama]

Nothing chases away our own ability to sin - however i do notice when Satan is determind something isn't going to happen or if I am doing something that invites the wrong spirit in my children turn into little devils lol they are all under the age of accountability but they feel the 'evil' and it does impact on their behaviour

Edited April 8, 2010 by Elgama

[Gwen]

I believe every time you choose to sin you are inviting an unclean spirit possession over you. To the greater extent that you sin you give greater control to an unclean spirit in possession over you.

maybe we are using a different definition of possession. i don't think spirits can possess our bodies easily. i think it takes a lot before such can happen. however i do think that we can and do invite the companionship of spirits with us, be they good or bad.

i've often wondered if some ppl are also just more susceptible to the companionship of spirits. if surrounded by bad then we find those, if surrounded by good then those too will be present.

[marts1]

There was a peiod of time in my life where I was bothered by the personal advances of evil spirits. I remember the hometeachers commenting on seeing them hovering in the air all around my home. There was a scary feeling when they were close by. Many times I used priesthood power to keep them away which always worked but they kept coming back. On one particular occasion I awoke from a very nasty nightmare and saw with my minds eye, something I did not see but I sure felt it coming quickly toward me and I sat up quickly and blurted out something I could not understand. I think that was evil spirits attempting to actually possess my body but it didn't work because of what I did or said. We've been told it may not be the best idea to talk about this stuff so I'll cut it short. I have not found a little talk of this stuff to be of harm.:) This experience I had with my xwife lasted about 2 months. On another of many incidences she was picked up and carried from one side of the living room to the other, I wasn't there to see that one. Singing hymes and prayer help a great deal to chase spirits away but the best way is by someone who has the priesthood and saying the proper words.

[rameumptom]

Many years ago, Elder Grant Von Bangerter spoke on an experience he had as mission president in Brazil. The elders began to have evil spirits come to them. This began happening throughout the mission. It got so bad that Elder Bangerter told all the elders to not speak to anyone again about such evil appearances, but to only detail the experience in their weekly letter to the mission president. After two months, the events had virtually ended.

So, I'd say there is reason to not dwell on evil, etc. It is better for us to focus our minds on uplifting and spiritual things. I'm much rather have an angelic visitor than a demon.

That said, I know a member who has struggled with demons attacking her for years. I've guided her and her husband through many teachings to help them. Part of it was to have her focus on happier thoughts and concepts. It does help her. There came a time when I had to explain to her that not all her spiritual experiences were from the devil, and she needed to patiently learn to tell the difference, so she could focus in on the holy events, and turn her back on the bad ones.

[LocalFarms]

maybe we are using a different definition of possession. i don't think spirits can possess our bodies easily. i think it takes a lot before such can happen. however i do think that we can and do invite the companionship of spirits with us, be they good or bad.

i've often wondered if some ppl are also just more susceptible to the companionship of spirits. if surrounded by bad then we find those, if surrounded by good then those too will be present.

I agree we have a different deffinition Gwen and this is something I'd like us to investigate further. It is my opinion that we today have a faulty idea about what spirit possession is. I do not believe in the Hollywood/ Exorcist version of spirit possession. Have you ever seen someone be hypnotized by a stage hypnotist? They are made to do silly things like eat onions like they're apples and cluck like a chicken on stage. Does the hypnotist jump inside them and start pulling the puppet strings? No he usesthe power of persuasion to convince you you WANT to eat that onion or cluck like a chicken in front of everyone you know. This is similar to how I think an unclean spirit can take possession of a person. Sometimes the persuasion can become almost inescapable (as I learned durring my own experience with asleep paralysis), but, I believe, the spirit can't make you do anything you don't want to do.

[marts1]

Have you not read the account in the bible about the person possessed by evil spirits?

[LocalFarms]

Yes they asked the lord to cast them out. For me there is a huge dissonance between the biblical accounts and the hollywoodized version.

[marts1]

I was referring to scripture, not movies.

[LocalFarms]

I wasn't claiming that... I was claiiming that the popular notion of a person under demonic possession being like a puppet on strings being totally controlled by a spirit entity that never leaves that body until it is cast out by a priesthood holder is not how I understand scriptures to describe spirit possession. The person still had enough control of themselves to ask the the unclean spirit be cast out. I think of spirit possession to be of a type (but certainly of no comparison) to the spirit of god. Anytime you are feeling lustful thoughts, for example, you are inviting a spirit of lust to reside within you. That spirit may compel you to do different things (i.e. one person may be compelled to seek after immoral acts with a woman and another may just be compelled to look at porn) but it is still the same "spirit". The same can be said about hate, pride, envy, or any other sin. Also, the more you invite a particular type of spirit into your home or your body you make it easier for that spirit to dwell there.

[marts1]

I thought when you said an evil spirit can't make you do what you don't want to do, you meant physically.

[Traveler]

maybe we are using a different definition of possession. i don't think spirits can possess our bodies easily. i think it takes a lot before such can happen. however i do think that we can and do invite the companionship of spirits with us, be they good or bad.

i've often wondered if some ppl are also just more susceptible to the companionship of spirits. if surrounded by bad then we find those, if surrounded by good then those too will be present.

I suggest you read Joseph Smith's account of the first vision.

The Traveler

[Gwen]

I suggest you read Joseph Smith's account of the first vision.

The Traveler

you are suggesting i'm wrong? i don't think the events of the first vision were little. thus it did take a lot for evil to attempt to take over joseph. however, i don't believe he was possessed.

when i refer to possession i think of it in the very literal since you read about in the scriptures. the evil spirit does enter the body. not hanging around and trying to "talk us into things" but physically in our bodies with our spirit. i don't watch holly wood versions of this so i can't speak for how accurate i think it may or may not be. knowing what i do of holly wood i'd say it's wrong. i think the person still has some control of themselves. and it makes complete since to me why ppl would think that mental illnesses were possessions.

[LocalFarms]

I thought when you said an evil spirit can't make you do what you don't want to do, you meant physically.

I only believe they can make us think they can control us physically, through the power of suggestion.

[marts1]

I only believe they can make us think they can control us physically, through the power of suggestion.

So you don't believe my story. Thats ok. I've been called a loonytoon before. :)

[marts1]

i've often wondered if some ppl are also just more susceptible to the companionship of spirits. if surrounded by bad then we find those, if surrounded by good then those too will be present.

You might relate this to how some people seem to see apparitions in the temple while so many others never do.

It may be true that living in sin might have something to do with being troubled by evil spirits. I also think that a person can be troubled in this way because of the knowledge Satan has, like for example the experience Joseph Smith had just before his first vision.

[LocalFarms]

So you don't believe my story. Thats ok. I've been called a loonytoon before. :)

I wasn't reffering to your story at all... I may have overlooked it I'll go back and take a look sorry.

[marts1]

I wasn't reffering to your story at all... I may have overlooked it I'll go back and take a look sorry.

That was a lot of typing for me..:)

[Wisc]

I read all of your posts about possession, and unclean spirits attacking and tempting and harassing and you all ooz with fear of these creatures and what they might do to you. Well, let me tell you something from personal experience. There is NOTHING as chilling to the soul as the realization that Satan is no longer attacking you. That you are no longer of concern to him. That is what you all need to fear. If he is attacking you in whatever fashion, that is cause to rejoice!! For the day the attacks cease is the day your soul is lost.

[marts1]

You have a way of putting things so mild like Wisk. :)

[Wisc]

You should hear me tell ghost stories...

[GADBabaganoosh]

Theres a little book called Jay's Journal. It will disturb you. AS far as I know it is not fiction.

Scratch that, i guess it's BS, and was changed.

Amazon.com: Jay's Journal (9780671735593): Beatrice Sparks: Books

Nevertheless, it was still quite and unsettling read when i read it in high school.