Secrets of the Mormon Temple Revealed!

[mnn727]

Some of my feelings, I'm sure, are due to the fact I've known some pretty terrible human beings who are 'temple-worthy', .

I don't want to derail this wonderful thread, however I feel I must make a few observations here:

If they are not Temply worthy then they are going under false pretenses and will get theirs at the eternal judgement bar, for God will not be mocked.

You have the right and obligation to raise your hand in opposition to a calling if you have information that someone is unworthy of a calling, and each year at Ward Conference you sustain the Stake President (and all other officers), so I have to ask the question, if this Stake President was not worthy, did you oppose his being sustained? if not, why not?

Edited April 18, 2010 by mnn727

[Nikkie85]

Being sealed to my husband was on of the best experiences of my life. Nothing so far has compared to it. The spirit is so strong and so beautiful that it cannot be denied.

[prisonchaplain]

Sadly, you can chastise me at will, but it's one aspect of our culture I find challenging to make a regular part of my life.

I read one story of an ex-LDS member, wondering why he left. Surprisingly (at least to me) it was the Temple. He was an adult convert, and his first experience was very unsettling to him. To his credit, he did not disclose any of the details. The man sought counsel, and was told to go every day for a week. He did so, but could not come to terms with his feelings. Ultimately, he left the faith.

My sense is that his experience was unusual. Most who leave the faith, do so for other reasons. But that story always struck me. Personally, I think I would find the experience of a Temple-like experience profoundly enriching. Yet, I can understand that some would be nervous, and find the time challenging.

[prisonchaplain]

as for the topic of this thread..... i think the varying levels of dedication you see toward the temple can also be seen in all religions and what they hold sacred. ppl are just at different levels. some are more dedicated than others. i don't think it makes us all that different than the rest of the world. due to the temples and recommend process maybe it's just more obvious to outsiders than among other groups?

Gwen is right, of course. People have varying commitments to different aspects of their religions. Perhaps with LDS this seems stark because the Temple is so very different from the Ward. Additionally, even being active in the ward is a challenge for the majority. Like most faiths, perhaps 20% of the people do 80% of the work.

The question I asked is personal, and largely comes out of my experience on the tour. Also, I have come to learn that the Temple experience is highly revered in LDS spirituality, so perhaps the reality that some are uncomfortable seems particularly surprising.

[goofball]

Going to the temple is like swimming. At first you are nervous, excited and have no real grasp of how things are done. Then as you swim more and more, i.e. go to the temple, you become more and more comfortable. You learn so much (a huge understatement) and get better and better. Soon it is something you love and want to do every single day. Just my 2 cents as I read the posts

[MsQwerty]

I guess it's a good thing that it's not up to you to decide anyone's worthiness but your own.

What I was referring to was discovering after the fact - that I've attended the temple regularly with people who were the whole time committing terrible acts against their families.

I've never pre-judged anyone's worthiness - that is none of my business.

[MsQwerty]

To think less of the temple or avoid attending because I felt someone was not worthy of being there for whatever reason is to allow their bad choices to harm me. That's giving someone else the power to decide my relationship to my Lord. Thanks but no thanks, I'd rather sit beside a potential child molester and ignore him then stay home and ignore the Lord because of him.

You're a better person than I am. I would not, under any circumstances sit next to a child molester (if I knew for certain that's what the person was) in the temple.

[MsQwerty]

I don't want to derail this wonderful thread, however I feel I must make a few observations here:

If they are not Temply worthy then they are going under false pretenses and will get theirs at the eternal judgement bar, for God will not be mocked.

You have the right and obligation to raise your hand in opposition to a calling if you have information that someone is unworthy of a calling, and each year at Ward Conference you sustain the Stake President (and all other officers), so I have to ask the question, if this Stake President was not worthy, did you oppose his being sustained? if not, why not?

Because this man's wife, his sister-in-law and two of his kids had made complaints about him, and on a church level nothing more was done but counselling with the family. Eventually, after many years as a stake president he was released but the first thing they did was call him to the YM Stake Presidency. His kids are a mess, his wife has stayed with him but her testimony is all but gone.

So yes, he might be judged in the long term, but the damage he's wreaked on his family in this life has also affected their eternal progression.

He and I were actually taught and baptized by the same missionaries many years ago. We attended the temple together as part of a reunion with one of those returned missionaries who came back with his family to meet the people he helped convert. I have never revealed what I know to anyone or how it's affected me, except here on this forum. I would never have burst our RM's joy at seeing all his converts and their families together.

[MsQwerty]

you posted this in another thread.

all i can say is "wow!?! you are kidding right?" did i miss something? it seems one moment you are criticizing those that share to much of being human in concern that it will drive investigators from the church and then the next you make some very harsh statements about one of the most significant aspects of our doctrine.

Why would I be kidding? Go back and read what I wrote - I was NOT criticizing those that share 'too much' of their humanity and I actually said so: . "I'm not criticising anyone as this is purely my own reaction to the 'honesty' people present when they are anonymous online."

Nor did I mention the above affecting investigators, I believe that was mentioned by several other people. I said that what I'm reading affects ME as a member - and I will add that I take full responsibility for my reactions and am endeavouring to make sense of them.

Since you are all for laying our 'humanity' out on the forum, why would you have a problem with what I have to say? Why is it 'harsh' if I vomited and if I don't have an affinity for temple attendance. Lots of members don't. I can say it was harsh on me, that's for sure. Some go once and never return because their first experience was too overwhelming (is that a polite enough word for it?). I haven't revealed anything about temple ordinances - my 'human' experience is that the temple rituals made me feel sick when I first attended. That's my reality. It hasn't been all that good for me, and I don't believe the open houses give even an inkling of what really goes on.

this (bolded mine) particularly jumps out at me. maybe you are more among these groups than you let on? one of the many disillusioned ones that struggle possibly because the ppl around you didn't show enough of their "humanity"?

Not at all. You are making some huge assumptions about me there. I have no problem with human frailty, it is part of the human condition and what allows us to grow spiritually. I certainly have my share and I have no illusions about perfection for myself or anyone else. However, maybe I'm weird but I would like to think that the people I trust my kids to on Sunday, or who are in leadership at church, who I attend the temple with, are at the very least living the basic principles of the gospel and are not closet porn addicts or messing around behind their spouses backs. Or maybe I just have expectations that are too high.

i'm sorry you have had some bad experiences surrounding the temple.

I don't think you are sorry I had bad experiences in the temple, because you are condemning me for being honest about them. What you want is for me to post only the rosy aspects of temple attendance so that we can all smile indulgently at PC, and feel validated by his positive description of the open house he attended. Non-member praise of anything to do with the church is something we lds thirst for, we can't get enough of it. PC asked for both positive and negative experiences at the end of his carefully worded post, I simply added mine since 'honesty' seems to be the order of the day here.

working on my worthiness and testimony is such a full time job i can't think about what others are doing. yes i would like things in the church to be "perfect" so that aspect didn't add to my struggles but that's just not going to happen. part of this life is opposition, sometimes that even means in the church.

Agreed.

as for the topic of this thread..... i think the varying levels of dedication you see toward the temple can also be seen in all religions and what they hold sacred. ppl are just at different levels. some are more dedicated than others. i don't think it makes us all that different than the rest of the world. due to the temples and recommend process maybe it's just more obvious to outsiders than among other groups?

PC asked for varying interpretations of people's temple experience. I gave mine.

Pardon me for having opinions, thoughts and feelings that are not in line with what others here have posted.

It seems that on this forum, if someone posts about being a sexual deviant, about masturbating to porn that exploits and dehumanizes god's children, about cheating on a spouse, and lord only knows what else, then there are plenty of pats on the back and encouragement for the poor sinner.

But heaven forbid an active and dedicated lds posts that they are uncomfortable with what appears to be the hypocrisy of so many who are doing the above things while attending the temple, and you'll get jumped on for being 'judgemental'. And whatever we do, let's never do anything but pretend the temple is a great experience for all who attend there. It's not - I know it can be edifying and uplifting for many, but there are those of us who don't feel that way. The nerve of us, we really should just shut up and let the interpretation of the temple experience be 'sanitized' ...but oh wait, we don't do that here, we are honest about our human frailties and experiences...nope, that's not it either...we should be sanitized on some issues and open on others. All too confusing for me, I'm afraid.

With that said, I won't be back. It's pretty clear what's going on here. And no, for the ever so compassionate and understanding lds here, I won't let the door hit me.

[LDSVALLEY]

You're a better person than I am. I would not, under any circumstances sit next to a child molester (if I knew for certain that's what the person was) in the temple.

Sorry, I'm not better then you. I just refuse to let others dictate my relationship with the Lord. Why should I allow another persons sins prevent me from spending time in the Temple with the Lord.

It's the same with those who give up the Sacrament and eternal happiness because someone at church offended them.

It's like people think well you offended me or your a sinful person but I got even by avoiding you. So I don't get the sacrament, I don't get eternity, I don't get to be in the Temple, I don't get to associate with the many good Saints But don't you feel bad that you caused me to lose all these many blessings. Mind you 95% of the time the offender or sinner has no knowledge of this but somehow people think they are getting even.

I go to the temple and church for me and for my family. My time in the temple is focused on the Lord and whatever issues I brought in. I don't tend to talk even in whispers to anyone during sessions or in the celestrial room. That is time for me and the Lord to commune together.

I'm to spiteful to let any idiot take that away from me. It's my time, I worked to earn the right to be in the temple there is no way I will allow someone else's stupidity to deny me the rewards for that work.

Here is a suggestion. Go to the temple early, sit in a back corner seat, close your eyes and commune with the Lord until the session starts. During the session simply focus on the workers and ignore those around you.

If you only go where worthy people are you will never go anywhere.

Since you obviously are going places where those who sin are then isn't the temple the best place to go no matter who is there?

It is your life to live as you choose of course but we can't decide others actions only our reaction to them. I choose the selfish route, I choose my path no matter who else is traveling the same direction.

May you find peace and joy

[miztrniceguy]

MsQ I hope you don't leave because of what someone here said.

[Wingnut]

What I was referring to was discovering after the fact - that I've attended the temple regularly with people who were the whole time committing terrible acts against their families.

That doesn't jive with what you said before, unless the act of becoming physically ill after attending the temple happened years and years later, after all this information came out.

[Gwen]

msq, i don't care if you share your less than positive experience. it was what appeared to me to be an inherent contradiction that bothered me. i feel as much as there is a time for honesty there is a time for tact. if you use the search function you will see there are many many threads that speak very honestly about less than positive experiences in nearly any aspect of the church.

i would suspect you probably had a bad experience because ppl didn't share honestly. we do have a problem with that within our lds culture. it's very bothersome to me. my parents did it. had i gone to the temple with only what they and my youth leaders had shared i would have had a bad experience too, i would have been ill prepared. as others have pointed out. the temple if very ritualistic. something that lds are not used to. to feels awkward and off. it makes us uncomfortable. sometimes i think as lds we mistake comfort and familiarity with feeling the spirit. or being uncomfortable with being "warned" by the spirit. that too has been discussed a lot in this forum. i think moe pointed out that is why ppl should not have "temple dates". when we leave what is familiar to us we feel uncomfortable, sometimes we make the assumption that is the spirit warning us. that's not always any more true than when we feel good it being the spirit encouraging us. there is a difference. fortunately for me i had a very good stake pres, who had a bad first experience at the temple, and he personally did the first time temple attenders recommend interviews. in that interview he shared things about the temple, not the covenanted stuff, but the ritualistic stuff that tends to make some members uncomfortable. i also had a wonderful sister that worked at the temple who took it very slowly and was very plain spoken about everything. because of these ppl, not the ppl closest to me, i was very comfortable and had a good experience. i have made a point that anyone i have gone to the temple with for the first time to have a private talk during the week before to share the same things i was told. so they too can enjoy the experience. my saying i was sorry for your negative experience was very sincere. i don't like to hear that someone was ill prepared for the experience. that doesn't mean i think you can't talk about it.

the open houses aren't meant to show the world what goes on in the temple. that would pretty much mess up the whole needing a recommend thing. it is meant to show, those who are interested, what the temple looks like. a chance to learn the end goal of the temple. why it's so important to us. take some of the mystery and dispel some of the rumors. to give the chance to share as much as we can. that is a beautiful thing.

if you know for a fact that someone is abusing their family you have an obligation to report that. either to the bishop or to the proper authorities. whichever makes you most comfortable. you are not obligated to sit in the temple with them. if you sit in the temple or get up and leave because you are upset with them but you never act then you will be accountable for your actions as well. if you don't really know and you don't have solid reasons for you thinking then you are judging. what bothered me in your post wasn't that you were saying "i knew this person was doing x and that bothered me" but you said something to the effect of "i can't help but look around and wonder who all are x y and z". that's judgmental. would you want someone else in there looking at you and thinking "i wonder if she abuses kids too"? of course you wouldn't. i wouldn't want someone thinking that about me.

you want my personal experiences, my humanity? as i've said due to some ppl around me i had a wonderful first experience. my first experience with the garments not so great. i think there is a lot that could be fixed there. there have been a hand full of ppl that i have said if i found myself in a session with them i would have to excuse myself, i could not stay. i worked on that and am to the point that i could sit in a session with them but i could not and would not participate in the prayer circle with them. i feel that emotion is acceptable or they would not give the opportunity to excuse yourself before they start. i have never been enchanted with the temple. it's never been my most favorite part of the church. i enjoy baptisms the most. i loved the initiatory until they changed it. to me an ideal trip to the temple would to to go and do baptisms, initiatory (the old way), and then to just sit in the celestial room until i was ready to leave. it's not that i don't like the other things just not enchanted with it. at this moment i do have a recommend but i have not been to the temple in a long time. i have my own issues that do not prevent me from being worthy but because i take my temple attendance seriously i choose not to go till i have this worked out. i don't know how long that will be. i believe my temple attendance is between me and the lord. when i'm ready i will go again and as long as i'm worthy i will keep an active recommend even if i choose not to go.

[mnn727]

on a church level nothing more was done but counselling with the family.

And what else can the Church do? Its not like we have Church Police and Church Jails

If there was actual abuse then the wife should have called the police and/or divorced the man. The Church can cousel but not coerce

I have never revealed what I know to anyone or how it's affected me, except here on this forum..

Like I said, you have the opportunity to oppose a sustaining of a Church officer both when they are first called and again once every year at ward conference and if you didn't then you have no cause to complain AND you are also now partially responsible in that you knew and didn't speak up.

I would never have burst our RM's joy at seeing all his converts and their families together.

What? you're afraid of saying something so the missionary who baptised you wouldn't be disappointed?! <<shaking head in disbelief>> Come on, you're kidding, right?

Do you think God will allow abusers into the C.K.? or someone who does not keep their Covenants?

Again, I am sorry for derailing this thread.

Edited April 19, 2010 by mnn727

[Matthew0059]

Open question...for some LDS the Temple is one of the most positive, encouraging, motivating aspects of the faith. Others apparently find it difficult, and feel little desire to go more than occasionally. Thoughts?

I haven't been to the temple since I was honest with my bishop about the fullness of my depression when I was 16 (before that, I had done baptisms for the dead twice). I am struggling mightily to overcome my own set of trials and challenges so that I might be able to enter HIS house and enter into HIS presence again.

I testify that the temple is the LORD'S house, and that nowhere on Earth does HIS glory shine forth unto men as it does inside the temple. Nowhere on Earth is the Celestial Kingdom as near as when one is inside the temple. I know this despite not yet having received the Endowment, because GOD has whispered it to me.

That's how I feel about the temple.

[prisonchaplain]

MsQ's posts are understandable. Probably the major reason people do not join our churches and attend our sacred events is because of the perceived hypocrites who are there. Understadable...but sad. Jesus told us there would be weeds amongst the tares, and pretty much encouraged us to leave it alone. Whenever we try to prune out the bad members we usually end up discouraging good ones too. When a sin or wrong doing becomes obvious, there is church discipline to deal with it. But "common knowledge," "several complaints" etc.--that's not enough.

As for what the public tours show--just an inkling would be my guess. Not more--just enough so that perhaps a few will show interest for more. Also, I would guess the leadership want the community to know that while there are sacred and closed rituals, the church desires to be as open as it can be to the public.

[Justice]

Everyone is at a different level in their progression. To someone who has either not experienced severe trials as a result of other people and have had to learn forgiveness over the space of many years, or to those who have already been through the process and feel we need to forgive everyone, it's easy to be critical of those struggling to forgive.

I appreciate honesty, no matter what it means.

I hope one day MsQ will find the ability to forgive through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I understand her feelings, and I know that if left unchecked they will cause serious pain to herself.

By no means do I condone the type of behavior she describes. But, it's not ours to judge or condemn. We don't know but a person will have a change of heart.

[Guest]

I had mixed feelings when I first went to the temple for more than just baptisms. That was during my sealing with my husband. I was only a member a year and I was 8 months pregnant - so I guess that had something to do with it.

I was confused with the rituals - and being ex-Catholic didn't help me. But, I have to say, when I first saw my husband meet me after getting changed, I kid you not, I saw him like he was an exalted person - with that sparkly aura around him. HE WAS BEAUTIFUL! When we got sealed, I can't explain the kind of joy I was feeling that it was a physical ache in my chest. And when we both sat in silence next to each other in the celestial room it was... ugh, I have no other words... priceless.

So, yeah, I understand how somebody would feel uncomfortable the first time they have endowments done.

[mnn727]

The fact that our regular Church Services have very little symbolism and ceremony makes the almost total symbolism and ceremony/rituals in the Temple a bit shocking the first time you go if you are not prepared for it.

While its true we have a Temple Prep class, its only as good as the instructor. My Temple Prep course was 20 minutes in the van on the way to the Temple. I was not prepared at all.

The one in my current ward is 6 one hour lessons, touching pretty much all aspects of the Temple.

[candyprpl]

You're a better person than I am. I would not, under any circumstances sit next to a child molester (if I knew for certain that's what the person was) in the temple.

I know this is off topic but I can't help myself. I also thought that maybe I should just send an IM but again thought, maybe others should know this too.

I am a survivor off child sexual abuse by a neighbor from age 8-11 and then when I was 14 I was raped by my guidance counselor. I struggled many years, as you can imagine. Nightmares led to suicide attempts when I got older, etc. etc.

When I was preparing for baptism the verse in Matthew (and there are other verses in both the Bible and The BoM) that instruct us we must forgive. All I could think of was how those two men had ruined my life and didn't deserve forgiveness!! I talked to the missionary who was teaching me -- I told him how much I was struggling with this. I didn't see how I could ask for forgiveness and enter the baptismal waters if I was unwilling to forgive. He told me to fast and pray and if I still was having problems he would set up an appointment with the Mission president.

I had come to know the Relief Society pres and I called her and asked if I could visit with her about something. After I explained everything she gave me her quad and showed me how to use the Bible Dictionary and the Topical Guide. I took her scriptures home and started my fast. I read scriptures most of that day and way into the night, and prayed that I would find an answer. I'll tell you right now that the answer I was hoping for was that I didn't need to forgive these men.

When I finally exhausted myself with reading I knelt at my bed and cried and prayed -- I felt like such a child -- the child that had been molested. I actually cried myself to sleep that night.

Never in my life had I had such a peaceful sleep! The next morning I was filled with peace and knew that I had forgiven them. I understood the Atonement! The Atonement HAD HEALED ME! I didn't need to have that anger and hurt in my life anymore.

No, I haven't forgotten what happened to me but I do find great comfort in knowing that God knows what happened to me.

If those men came and sat in the temple I would think two things:

1. If they are worthy to be here -- wow -- the repentance process they had to go through must have been so hard.

2. If they are here under false pretenses -- so, so very sad and then I would pray for them.

I'm not trying to sound like a goody two-shoes -- my message is that I KNOW that the Atonement heals and if we believe that, what comfort is available to us.

[prisonchaplain]

On this matter of forgiveness, I would add that doing so is certainly no endorsement of sin. Neither does it exonerate the unrepentent soul. Forgiveness, to my way of thinking, is a gift. I give the perpetrators over to God. I sustain God's authority to judge the person. If their repentence is sincere, then God can restore them--and I submit to that. If they are pretenders, then God can judge them--far more thoroughly then anything I might come up with. The unrepentant soul that molests a child would have been better off never having been born--so says Jesus directly. Hurting one of God's princesses??? I'm more than willing to give that over to my Sovereign Lord--he will deal most righteously with that sin!

If I understand that God is most cognizant of my suffering, most just in his judgments, and most merciful to those who truly repent, then forgiveness becomes a faith-act of handing over my bitterness to God. Oh yes Lord...take it. I gleesfully give it up!

[Guest Goose]

Okay...

Open question...for some LDS the Temple is one of the most positive, encouraging, motivating aspects of the faith. Others apparently find it difficult, and feel little desire to go more than occasionally. Thoughts?

I found a part of the ceremony, specifically the initial washing, to be confronting and uncomfortable. Because of that whenever I do manage to go I avoid that part of the work for the deceased.

The 'instructions' as you put it in the theater like rooms can be both uplifting and depressing or long. When I go in with the correct attitude it is uplifting but when I run in with little time left at the end of the day the session seems to be longish and tiring.

However the celestial room is always uplifting. We just go in to sit for a while, resting or meditating if one wishes to. But there is no set 'ceremony' for the celestial room so I find it relaxing and very peaceful.

I'd also thank you for your post however the button to 'Thank' isn't coming up so I'll do it here with a :)

[Guest Goose]

Re: thanks button,

sorry its there now that I've logged in, silly me!

[Guest Goose]

I haven't been to the temple since I was honest with my bishop about the fullness of my depression when I was 16 (before that, I had done baptisms for the dead twice). I am struggling mightily ...

Why would depression keep you out of the temple? depression surely isn't about worthiness, right? just curious

[Wingnut]

I found a part of the ceremony, specifically the initial washing, to be confronting and uncomfortable. Because of that whenever I do manage to go I avoid that part of the work for the deceased.

The washing and anointing ceremony was changed somewhat a few years ago. You may not find it as uncomfortable as you used to. I was also a little freaked out by it when I first went, but after doing proxy work in that area several times, I really enjoy it because I think the specific blessings given in that ordinance are some of the most special ones we receive in the temple.

Why would depression keep you out of the temple? depression surely isn't about worthiness, right? just curious

I don't think he was saying that he hasn't gone to the temple because he was honest about his depression, but rather that he hasn't been since that time.