Do We Recognize God's Prophecies Being Fulfilled?

[Intrigued]

So Rosabella.. you disagree that doctrine has changed in the LDS Church?

[Rosabella]

Snow this is my whole point that the Lord uses calamities to call people to repentance. All Prophets teach this as do the scriptures. Here are just some:

Dallin H. Oaks, “Love and Law,” Ensign, Nov 2009, 26–29

We read again and again in the Bible and in modern scriptures of God’s anger with the wicked and of His acting in His wrath against those who violate His laws. How are anger and wrath evidence of His love? Joseph Smith taught that God “institute[d] laws whereby [the spirits that He would send into the world] could have a privilege to advance like himself.” God’s love is so perfect that He lovingly requires us to obey His commandments because He knows that only through obedience to His laws can we become perfect, as He is. For this reason, God’s anger and His wrath are not a contradiction of His love but an evidence of His love.

M. Russell Ballard, “The Joy of Hope Fulfilled,” Ensign, Nov 1992, 31

Recently I read a newspaper article that cited statistics from the U.S. Geological Survey indicating that earthquakes around the world are increasing in frequency and intensity. According to the article, only two major earthquakes (earthquakes measuring at least six on the Richter scale) occurred during the 1920s. In the 1930s the number increased to five, and then it decreased to four during the 1940s. But in the 1950s, nine major earthquakes occurred, followed by fifteen during the 1960s, forty-six during the 1970s, and fifty-two during the 1980s. Already almost as many major earthquakes have occurred during the 1990s as during the entire decade of the 1980s.

Dallin H. Oaks, “Preparation for the Second Coming,” Liahona, May 2004, 7–10

In another revelation the Lord declares that some of these signs are His voice calling His people to repentance:

“Hearken, O ye nations of the earth, and hear the words of that God who made you. …

“How oft have I called upon you by the mouth of my servants, and by the ministering of angels, and by mine own voice, and by the voice of thunderings, and by the voice of lightnings, and by the voice of tempests, and by the voice of earthquakes, and great hailstorms, and by the voice of famines and pestilences of every kind, … and would have saved you with an everlasting salvation, but ye would not!” (D&C 43:23, 25).

These signs of the Second Coming are all around us and seem to be increasing in frequency and intensity. For example, the list of major earthquakes in The World Almanac and Book of Facts, 2004 shows twice as many earthquakes in the decades of the 1980s and 1990s as in the two preceding decades (pp. 189–90). It also shows further sharp increases in the first several years of this century. The list of notable floods and tidal waves and the list of hurricanes, typhoons, and blizzards worldwide show similar increases in recent years (pp. 188–89). Increases by comparison with 50 years ago can be dismissed as changes in reporting criteria, but the accelerating pattern of natural disasters in the last few decades is ominous.

"We are living in the prophesied time “when peace shall be taken from the earth” (D&C 1:35), when “all things shall be in commotion” and “men’s hearts shall fail them” (D&C 88:91). There are many temporal causes of commotion, including wars and natural disasters, but an even greater cause of current “commotion” is spiritual."

Russell M. Nelson, “Now Is the Time to Prepare,” Ensign, May 2005, 16

Because of frequent and frightening calamities in the world, some people doubt the existence of God. But, in fact, He is trying to help us. He revealed these words: “How oft have I called upon you by the mouth of my servants, and by the ministering of angels, and by mine own voice, and by the voice of thunderings, and … tempests, … earthquakes, … great hailstorms, … famines and pestilences of every kind, … and would have saved you with an everlasting salvation, but ye would not!”

Dieter F. Uchtdorf, “Have We Not Reason to Rejoice?,” Ensign, Nov 2007, 18–21

It is true, we live in a time foretold in the scriptures as a day of “wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places” (Mormon 8:30), when “the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them” (D&C 45:26).

Ezra Taft Benson, “Prepare for the Days of Tribulation,” Ensign, Nov 1980, 32

Too often we bask in our comfortable complacency and rationalize that the ravages of war, economic disaster, famine, and earthquake cannot happen here. Those who believe this are either not acquainted with the revelations of the Lord, or they do not believe them. Those who smugly think these calamities will not happen, that they somehow will be set aside because of the righteousness of the Saints, are deceived and will rue the day they harbored such a delusion.

The Lord has warned and forewarned us against a day of great tribulation and given us counsel, through His servants, on how we can be prepared for these difficult times. Have we heeded His counsel?

Ether 2:8-12

8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.

10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.

11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.

D&C 43: 25

25 How oft have I called upon you by the mouth of my servants, and by the ministering of angels, and by mine own voice, and by the voice of thunderings, and by the voice of lightnings, and by the voice of tempests, and by the voice of earthquakes, and great hailstorms, and by the voice of famines and pestilences of every kind, and by the great sound of a trump, and by the voice of judgment, and by the voice of mercy all the day long, and by the voice of glory and honor and the riches of eternal life, and would have saved you with an everlasting salvation, but ye would not!

D&C 87: 6

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

“Chapter 44: Preparing for the Second Coming of Christ,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, 389

The Latter-day Saints … believe in the statements of the Holy Scriptures, that calamities will befall the nations as signs of the coming of Christ to judgment. They believe that God rules in the fire, the earthquake, the tidal wave, the volcanic eruption, and the storm. Him they recognize as the Master and Ruler of nature and her laws, and freely acknowledge his hand in all things. We believe that his judgments are poured out to bring mankind to a sense of his power and his purposes, that they may repent of their sins and prepare themselves for the second coming of Christ to reign in righteousness upon the earth.

We firmly believe that Zion—which is the pure in heart—shall escape, if she observes to do all things whatsoever God has commanded; but, in the opposite event, even Zion shall be visited “with sore affliction, with pestilence, with plague, with sword, with vengeance, and with devouring fire” (Doctrine and Covenants 97:26). All this that her people may be taught to walk in the light of truth and in the way of the God of their salvation.

We believe that these severe, natural calamities are visited upon men by the Lord for the good of his children, to quicken their devotion to others, and to bring out their better natures, that they may love and serve him. We believe, further, that they are the heralds and tokens of his final judgment, and the schoolmasters to teach the people to prepare themselves by righteous living for the coming of the Savior to reign upon the earth, when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ.

Please stop your personal attacks and general nastiness. I did not come to this site to engage in mudslinging. You try to defame my character, my research, my Faith in Prophets and standard LDS teachings. I thought this was an LDS site that was friendly to LDS beliefs. I am now doubting this. I do not need to be mocked and ridiculed for my faith on a site that says it is LDS. If you do not believe in standard LDS teachings and scriptures that is your right, but please stop attacking me for my belief. I have tried to be polite and have not addressed you with rudeness. I am a convert to the LDS Church and have great respect for those of other faiths for my family is of many. I do not believe, however, in this kind of sarcastic bickering you keep levying at me. Please stop. I am more than happy to discuss topics, but not in this contentious way. Please confine your disagreements to the principles discussed and do not mock me personally. You keep eluding to my stupidity, alleged lack of education and dishonesty. I am far from any of those. I am a researcher and I have actually met with Prophets, Apostles and other GAs and shared my research with them upon their requests. I know where they stand on many issues including this one. Please stop this harassment.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Rosabella

[Rosabella]

So Rosabella.. you disagree that doctrine has changed in the LDS Church?

The core doctrines remain the same. There are policy changes and added revelation, clarifications and directions for specific generations but the core doctrines remain the same. If you do not agree that is fine, but this is my belief and it is consistent with standard LDS teaching. That is why I posted what the Church says is doctrine to try to clarify what the Church says is doctrine and not just my thoughts on the matter.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Rosabella

[Finrock]

Good morning Snow! I hope you are doing well today.:)

So here's my challenge to you Beautiful Rose,

Go into work tomorrow and in your next meeting announce out loud to your boss that God violently killed the tens of thousands of people in Haiti recently because he wants your boss and co-workers to repent - and that if they don't repent, God will just kill some more.

Let us know how it goes.

You can probably guess the result of that challenge, but I don't see how this is relevant to what Rosabella is posting? You are asking Rosabella to provide evidence of a claim she isn't making. For instance you make the following assertion:

[H]ere we have a poster who is trying to foist upon the community the notion that God brutally slays innocent people to call other sinful people to repentance

Will you please provide a quote from Rosabella where she made the claim you assert she did?

In truth, the above question is a rhetorical question because Rosabella never made such a claim. In logical parlance, what your post is doing is creating a straw man. That isn't very helpful in advocating your point and it is even less helpful in producing any sort of productive dialogue.

Essentially, Rosabella is making this claim: God, through His prophets, has warned His children that as the last days prior to the second coming draws near, calamaties will increase on the earth. These calamaties will affect both the good and the bad. When calamaties affect individuals, they can be humbled by them or imbittered by them. The obedient will see them for what they are: trials to overcome and to grow from. While those who do not humble themselves and repent, will be filled with dread and fear because they have no hope in Christ and in the gospel and are unable to see beyond mortality.

So, my challenge to you, Snow: I challenge you to deal with the content of Rosabella's posts rather than the caricature of her posts presented in your responses. I further challenge you to lay aside your sacrasm and ad hominems (which using such is just another way to not have to deal with the actual content) and have a discussion with her like a gentleman. :)

If you accept this challenge, you may even have a chance at convincing her of your position. Otherwise, I can almost assure you that your goal of helping, "...those who haven't thought through it to come to a rational conclusion," will not be realized. In order to help others come to rational conclusions, your posts need to be rational themselves. And that's a good thing!

Regards,

Finrock

Edited April 20, 2010 by Finrock

[Elphaba]

Please stop your personal attacks and general nastiness. I did not come to this site to engage in mudslinging. You try to defame my character, my research, my Faith in Prophets and standard LDS teachings. I thought this was an LDS site that was friendly to LDS beliefs. I am now doubting this. I do not need to be mocked and ridiculed for my faith on a site that says it is LDS. If you do not believe in standard LDS teachings and scriptures that is your right, but please stop attacking me for my belief. I have tried to be polite and have not addressed you with rudeness. I am a convert to the LDS Church and have great respect for those of other faiths for my family is of many. I do not believe, however, in this kind of sarcastic bickering you keep levying at me. Please stop. I am more than happy to discuss topics, but not in this contentious way. Please confine your disagreements to the principles discussed and do not mock me personally. You keep eluding to my stupidity, alleged lack of education and dishonesty. I am far from any of those. I am a researcher and I have actually met with Prophets, Apostles and other GAs and shared my research with them upon their requests. I know where they stand on many issues including this one. Please stop this harassment.

You bring the ridicule on yourself.

You are a "researcher" who posted a link to one person's website, who used data from the USGS to demonstrate earthquakes are on the rise and that it's a sign of the Second Cooming when the very scientists who collect and define that data clearly say earthquakes are not on the rise. Any credible researcher would have known better.

Even though you deny it, the very fact that you posted the link demonstrates you really are saying earthquakes are on the rise in frequency and that it means something. In fact, you might as well say the fact that sun rises and sets every day is a portentious sign, because the frequency of those events is not rising either.

In other words, it's nonsensical, albeit not as nonsensical as your "prophets, apostles and GAs have requested research from me" comment, because that's simply not possible.

These men are well-educated, including in the sciences, and have no need of a "researcher," because the Church provides them with employees to do whatever research they need completed. Nor do they have the time to waste requesting research from someone who is so poor at actual research.

I can't believe you really said these men, who devote all of their time to the workings of the Church and who don't have time to give most of us the time of day, actually requested research from you. In fact, I'm stunned.

Elphaba

Edited April 20, 2010 by Elphaba

[Adomini22]

Ha ha ha ha! Elphaba, your post is direct and kind of witty. I am somewhat stunned a little bit as well. However, there are two points I want to add:

1) Personal attacks are not very nice - even if you have facts. I struggle with this as well.

2) Technically, science , while proven, can be wrong and overridden if God wills it so. There is a higher power. Unless, if you dont believe in such higher power, then you can ignore this last point.

[Dravin]

Edit: Never mind, not worth it. Edited April 20, 2010 by Dravin

[Rosabella]

You bring the ridicule on yourself.

You are a "researcher" who posted a link to one person's website, who used data from the USGS to demonstrate earthquakes are on the rise and that it's a sign of the Second Cooming when the very scientists who collect and define that data clearly say earthquakes are not on the rise. Any credible researcher would have known better.

Even though you deny it, the very fact that you posted the link demonstrates you really are saying earthquakes are on the rise in frequency and that it means something. In fact, you might as well say the fact that sun rises and sets every day is a portentious sign, because the frequency of those events is not rising either.

In other words, it's nonsensical, albeit not as nonsensical as your "prophets, apostles and GAs have requested research from me" comment, because that's simply not possible.

These men are well-educated, including in the sciences, and have no need of a "researcher," because the Church provides them with employees to do whatever research they need completed. Nor do they have the time to waste requesting research from someone who is so poor at actual research.

I can't believe you really said these men, who devote all of their time to the workings of the Church and who don't have time to give most of us the time of day, actually requested research from you. In fact, I'm stunned.

Elphaba

The link I posted was merely to show that there were other sites out there that say opposite things about earthquakes increasing. I have actually not taken a direct stand on that topic but have said if the GAs say it is so, I will stand by them over scientists. Some GAs have said that earthquakes are increasing or that they seem to be. Yet that is not the point. The key is that they are telling us we live in the times of the signs of the last days. My purpose was merely to ask, do we reconized that all these things are signs? I had hoped to just use earthquakes as a jumping off place on to other topics. Instead it became the whole issue. Otherwise I would have named the thread "earthquakes are increasing" which I did not. I named it "Do We Recognize God's Prophecies Being Fulfilled" It was meant to talk about more than just earthquakes. I had just been reading a book of quotes by Elder Cannon that I found of great interest, so I used some of what he said.

The link I gave was just that a link. It was merely an example of how everyone is not in agreement about this. I was being asked to prove a point in which I was not trying to prove. I was merely showing that others had a difference of opinion in the way they chart the earthquakes. I really do not care if earthquakes are increasing, staying the same or lessening. That was not my point to begin with. My point as I have tried to say again and again is Earthquakes are a sign of the end times and are used to call man to repentance. The GAs have said this so if you disagree then you disagree with them not me.

Regarding my meeting with the GAs, well go ahead and be stunned if you must. I have met with them. Shocking as it may seem to you. What you are implying is that I am lying, which is false.

I am a researcher on a topic about which they asked me to meet with them for months. It was not science. It was about my research into social and spiritual movements of our times outside of Mormonism and the impact they were having and would have in the future. In these conversations the concept of calamities that do and will beset us was discussed.

Yes I shared my data with the GAs per their request. This happens all the time in the church. I personally know several people that have met with them in regards to their areas of expertise. They do not just use hired staff. That idea is "nonsensical" as you like to say. In reality they talk to many experts in many different fields all the time. That is how the Church works, if you are unfamiliar with that I am sorry, but it does not make it less true.

I wish man put as much faith in the Lord's Anointed as they do in men of science and fought as passionately for them. It is just as much a matter of unprovable faith to assume that scientists always tell the truth. Again I am not saying the USGS is lying or misleading, my point merely is who would you believe if it came to a difference between a Prophet saying that earthquakes are increasing and science saying they are not? Let me clarify we are not there yet, but what if? Which would you believe? I would believe the Prophet. Many scientists say their is no God, while others now are saying we are god and co-create the universe. Just because something is asserted by scientists, even by the majority of scientists does not make it so. I remember the days when we were being told the "fact" that we were headed into an Ice Age of disastrous proportions, now it is Global Warming. I do understand that those are theories and not exactly the same as collecting earthquake data, but it makes me question how much "faith" I should put in science. I put my faith first in the Prophet.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Rosabella

[Rosabella]

From now on any and all of my posts, IF I decide to make anymore, will only be directed to those that are polite, respectful and seem truly willing to have a conversation without personal attacks. My posts will always come from a perspective of absolute faith in the scriptures and the Prophets and Apostles. I have a personal testimony of them and I and my husband have had the blessing to know many of them personally and have even been in their homes. They are true men of God. I will ignore any posts that attack either me or the Church leaders, or any posts that cast aspersions on them or the scriptures. I enjoy sincere questions from searchers of truth; those are always welcome, but posts that are contentious will not be addressed.

[Intrigued]

From now on any and all of my posts, IF I decide to make anymore, will only be directed to those that are polite, respectful and seem truly willing to have a conversation without personal attacks. My posts will always come from a perspective of absolute faith in the scriptures and the Prophets and Apostles. I have a personal testimony of them and I and my husband have had the blessing to know many of them personally and have even been in their homes. They are true men of God. I will ignore any posts that attack either me or the Church leaders, or any posts that cast aspersions on them or the scriptures. I enjoy sincere questions from searchers of truth; those are always welcome, but posts that are contentious will not be addressed.

Please do not confuse debate or challenging remarks with contention. If you feel the urge to stick your head into the sand by all means do so but these are real issues that must be discussed and as far as I can tell.. you are the only person defending your stance.

About your previous post directed towards me.. I fully understand what doctrine is. I asked why does doctrine change and you deflected my question with a comment about what doctrine is and some nice quotes on the end times being the present. If you don't mind could you address my previous point that you may have simply just missed?

I'll state it again so it doesn't get lost in the middle of my post. Why does doctrine change if 'truth' is unchanging? I'm asking this because you mentioned the 'all or nothing' statement when it comes to prophets. As pointed out before.. it can be demonstrated that prophets have been incorrect in the past which IMO takes nothing away from Pres. Monson.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Intrigued

[GADBabaganoosh]

If you really think of it, regardless of whether or not there are an increase (even though I beleive there is, you know, since people are getting more wicked by the year, or even day, and the second coming is getting closer and closer.) ANYWAYS, whether or not, God has called his people to repentance in all years. So if he uses them as a call to repentance its because we always need it and have always need it since Adam fell. The people in Noah's day didn't heed the flood. If we ignore these, we'll end up like the ignorant people in Noah's day. We'll be marrying giving in marriage, going on as if everything is normal (and we still do.) but when it comes, we can't cry that we didn't see or weren't prepared when he comes. He's given us ample warning.

[Blake]

Please do not confuse debate or challenging remarks with contention. If you feel the urge to stick your head into the sand by all means do so but these are real issues that must be discussed and as far as I can tell.. you are the only person defending your stance.

If you feel you will get a response from Rosabella with your jab about her sticking her head in the sand, I highly doubt you will.

What specific stance are you referring to Rosabella defending? I have personally come out in support of a number of her statements so she is by no means the only one defending her position. Is it her claim that the Prophet and apostles are telling the truth when they say, as they do, that earthquakes are a sign from God calling men to repentance? She supported that claim with a plethora of quotes from current and past church leaders. I could add even more.

Perhaps you are referring to her claim that doctrines don't change. Your assertion that doctrines change could possibly be based on a rather different definition of the word "doctrine". Some tend to think that policies and public relations verbiage count as doctrine. They do not. I believe that is what Rosabella was trying to say when she said that core doctrines do not change. She was only reiterating the official church position. This is an LDS forum after all, so her orthodox viewpoint should not be a big surprise. The burden of proof is not on her, but on the dissident.

About your previous post directed towards me. I fully understand what doctrine is. I asked why does doctrine change and you deflected my question with a comment about what doctrine is and some nice quotes on the end times being the present. If you don't mind could you address my previous point that you may have simply just missed?

I'll state it again so it doesn't get lost in the middle of my post. Why does doctrine change if 'truth' is unchanging? I'm asking this because you mentioned the 'all or nothing' statement when it comes to prophets. As pointed out before.. it can be demonstrated that prophets have been incorrect in the past which IMO takes nothing away from Pres. Monson.

She did answer your question. She said that core doctrines do not change. You cannot ask her to explain why doctrines change, when she does not believe that they do. Here is evidence that Rosabella's position is in line with the church.

Changes in organization or procedures are a testimony that revelation is ongoing. While doctrines remain fixed, the methods or procedures do not...The doctrines will remain fixed, eternal; the organization, programs, and procedures will be altered as directed by Him whose church this is. - Revelation in a Changing World, Elder Boyd K. Packer

Again, since you are the one disagreeing with an official church position on an LDS forum, I think the burden of proof rests on you, not on Rosabella.

[Snow]

Good morning Snow! I hope you are doing well today.:)

Hello Finrock,

Why is it that everytime I see you, you have someone nibbling on your ear?

You can probably guess the result of that challenge, but I don't see how this is relevant to what Rosabella is posting?

It's relevant to the extent that the obvious reaction would be for the boss to think that a person making such a claim was a nutbar. Same thing for Sacrament Meeting, If you bore your testimony that God kills innocent babies to make a point to bad people, your Bishop would probably have a few words for you.

You are asking Rosabella to provide evidence of a claim she isn't making. For instance you make the following assertion:

"Originally Posted by Snow

[H]ere we have a poster who is trying to foist upon the community the notion that God brutally slays innocent people to call other sinful people to repentance"

Will you please provide a quote from Rosabella where she made the claim you assert she did?

In truth, the above question is a rhetorical question because Rosabella never made such a claim. In logical parlance, what your post is doing is creating a straw man. That isn't very helpful in advocating your point and it is even less helpful in producing any sort of productive dialogue.

You are mistaken. In my very first post I asked: Are you implying that God is indiscriminately killing good and bad people as part of some judgement by supernaturally causing earthquakes?"

The poster responded: "We do not know all the reasons of why certain things that apper to us as unfair are truly good and God's will.

We are clearly warned that if we do not follow His commandments we will receive of His wrath. It is said it is to call us to repentance. Earthquakes are one of the things stated in the scripture as one of the ways God calls man to repentance.

We must remember the salvation of a soul is far greater than the salvation of ones temporal life. What is our temporal life worth if we lost our eternal life? We have example after example of the Lord pouring out His wrath upon the world. It is done with love for higher purposes that we do not always understand. Death is nothing to fear if one is repentant."

In most every subsequent post of mine I reiterate her position, being that God brutally kills innocents to make a point to bad people. The poster never corrects me by claiming that she does not, in fact, believe that God causes natural disasters to make a point.

Essentially, Rosabella is making this claim: God, through His prophets, has warned His children that as the last days prior to the second coming draws near, calamaties will increase on the earth. These calamaties will affect both the good and the bad. When calamaties affect individuals, they can be humbled by them or imbittered by them. The obedient will see them for what they are: trials to overcome and to grow from. While those who do not humble themselves and repent, will be filled with dread and fear because they have no hope in Christ and in the gospel and are unable to see beyond mortality.

Well she didn't make that point. Had she made that point instead of the one she did, or if she misspoke originally and then corrected her point to the point you make, there would be no issue, from me or anyone. Your point is uncontroversial and rational. Instead you chose to defend her point and portray herself as a victim.

So, my challenge to you, Snow: I challenge you to deal with the content of Rosabella's posts rather than the caricature of her posts presented in your responses. I further challenge you to lay aside your sacrasm and ad hominems (which using such is just another way to not have to deal with the actual content) and have a discussion with her like a gentleman. :)

What you want me to do is to ignore her point and debate your point. I am not interested in debating your point since I agree with it. It is Rosabella's point that is so offensive.

Regards.

[Snow]

If you really think of it, regardless of whether or not there are an increase (even though I beleive there is, you know, since people are getting more wicked by the year, or even day,

Are you just making that up?

Can you objectively compare the wickedness of today vs 1800ce, 1500ce, 700ce or even 3000bce?

...and the second coming is getting closer and closer. ANYWAYS, whether or not, God has called his people to repentance in all years. So if he uses them as a call to repentance its because we always need it and have always need it since Adam fell. The people in Noah's day didn't heed the flood. If we ignore these, we'll end up like the ignorant people in Noah's day. We'll be marrying giving in marriage, going on as if everything is normal (and we still do.) but when it comes, we can't cry that we didn't see or weren't prepared when he comes. He's given us ample warning.

People have been saying that since the first century CE. The early restored Church thought it would happen any moment. People have always been wrong - every single time, throughout history.

Don't hold your breath.

[Finrock]

Good evening Intrigued! It is a pleasure to meet you and welcome to the forums! :)

I'll state it again so it doesn't get lost in the middle of my post. Why does doctrine change if 'truth' is unchanging? I'm asking this because you mentioned the 'all or nothing' statement when it comes to prophets. As pointed out before.. it can be demonstrated that prophets have been incorrect in the past which IMO takes nothing away from Pres. Monson.

I understand that you are addressing this question to Rosabella, but since I feel the urge to respond, I'm gonna just give in and do it. Plus, I want to test out my new mechanical keyboard (not sure of your age, but think of the old Model M IBM keyboards). So far I'm very happy with the keyboard. I like the tactile feel and clickity click of the mechanical keys. So, I hope you don't mind.

Anyways, to answer your question. Doctrine has not changed and neither has truth. More particularly, eternal truth has not changed. The source of doctrine is God and the doctrine of the Church is based upon eternal principles (Source). Changes that do occur in the Church and which often get misunderstood as changes in doctrine are:

1. People's understanding of truth. This can vary from time to time or from person to person.

2. How doctrines are implemented. How eternal principles are implemented can and has varied through-out the history of the Church. These changes in policies and implementations of eternal truths, or doctrine, do not constitute a change in doctrine.

3. What doctrines are applicable to us at any given era.

How much doctrine may be revealed to us or which doctrines are applicable to us, or how a particular doctrine is implemented, can, has, and likely will continue to change. But in all of these cases, that which is doctrine, or eternal truth, does not change.

Regards,

Finrock

[Rosabella]

Thank you Finrock you have stated my point perfectly.

Essentially, Rosabella is making this claim: God, through His prophets, has warned His children that as the last days prior to the second coming draws near, calamaties will increase on the earth. These calamaties will affect both the good and the bad. When calamaties affect individuals, they can be humbled by them or imbittered by them. The obedient will see them for what they are: trials to overcome and to grow from. While those who do not humble themselves and repent, will be filled with dread and fear because they have no hope in Christ and in the gospel and are unable to see beyond mortality.

[Intrigued]

She did answer your question. She said that core doctrines do not change. You cannot ask her to explain why doctrines change, when she does not believe that they do. Here is evidence that Rosabella's position is in line with the church.

Again, since you are the one disagreeing with an official church position on an LDS forum, I think the burden of proof rests on you, not on Rosabella.

I asked her if she disagreed that doctrine has changed.. if she did I would provide my evidences. She neither denied nor agreed (that I can remember) .. so why would I present them? Thankfully, someone answered and this thread can move forward now..

One piece of evidence should be sufficient.. and I'll throw down the Adam-God doctrine presented by Brigham Young. He presented this as binding doctrine and it was taught as such. Now.. it's not taught any longer is it? In fact it's been called heresy fairly recently. It's a great example of binding 'core' doctrine that has changed.

Anyways, I think it was Finrock who said eternal truths do not change.. which is exactly why I posed the question of 'Why does doctrine change?'. The only way to reconcile the fact that LDS doctrine has changed while eternal truths do not.. is to realize that LDS doctrine is not absolute truth, right? There is absolutely nothing wrong with that either.. you have to walk before you can run.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Intrigued

[Snow]

From now on any and all of my posts, IF I decide to make anymore, will only be directed to those that are polite, respectful and seem truly willing to have a conversation without personal attacks.

Have you considered holding your breath until you turn blue?

Seriously, if you want some credibility as a poster, post credible things. If you want to be treated respectfully, post accurate or truthful things but for Pete's sake, drop the silly victim routine.

My posts will always come from a perspective of absolute faith in the scriptures and the Prophets and Apostles. I have a personal testimony of them and I and my husband have had the blessing to know many of them personally and have even been in their homes. They are true men of God. I will ignore any posts that attack either me or the Church leaders, or any posts that cast aspersions on them or the scriptures. I enjoy sincere questions from searchers of truth; those are always welcome, but posts that are contentious will not be addressed.

I'm gonna say that is untrue. I bet I could fine tons of things from scripture, prophets and apostles that, far from having absolute faith in, you disagree with.

For example, do you agree with the prophet and apostle who said that women are not allowed to speak in Church?

Or, do you agree with the prophet and apostle who thinks that women should or do (did) hold the priesthood?

...and by the way, those weren't just private opinions. They're scripture.

Finally, just to be clear Rosabella, I don't think you are bad or immoral or nutty or dishonest so don't get too bent. I think you have made an absurd point and it is that point which I am ridiculing. If it seems overly personal, I apologize.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Snow

[Blake]

It was really clear to me right from the beginning that what Rosabella was trying to say is the same as what Finrock so eloquently stated. Other people are trying to put words in her mouth, I suppose so that can have someone to fight with.

I posted a lengthy statement on page five that asserted and supported pretty much the same thing as what Rosabella has been saying all along on this thread. Again, it was pretty clear to me that she was merely asserting that earthquakes are under God's control and so he must have higher purposes in allowing them to happen (such as calling people to repentence, stimulating compassionate service, executing his wrath on mankind collectively, or merely signifying the end of times). We've got to retain an eternal perspective on mortality and understand that mortal death and even mortal suffering is not to be feared and should not be used as an excuse for turning away from God or reinventing church teachings.

[Snow]

It was really clear to me right from the beginning that what Rosabella was trying to say is the same as what Finrock so eloquently stated. Other people are trying to put words in her mouth, I suppose so that can have someone to fight with.

That is demonstrably untrue.

Finrock said nothing at all about God killing innocent people to make a point to bad people.

I specifically asked Rosabella if that was her point and she responded that if people don't do what God wants, God gets mad. She then said (so strongly implied that it is impossible to miss) that the result of God getting mad is that he kills people. She said it when, in conjunction with stating that God gets mad, she talked of death, that temporal life is nothing compared to eternal life... and remember, that's all in response to my asking if she believes God kills people to make a point.

[Blake]

I asked her if she disagreed that doctrine has changed.. if she did I would provide my evidences. She neither denied nor agreed (that I can remember) .. so why would I present them? Thankfully, someone answered and this thread can move forward now..

One piece of evidence should be sufficient.. and I'll throw down the Adam-God doctrine presented by Brigham Young. He presented this as binding doctrine and it was taught as such. Now.. it's not taught any longer is it? In fact it's been called heresy fairly recently. It's a great example of binding 'core' doctrine that has changed.

Anyways, I think it was Finrock who said eternal truths do not change.. which is exactly why I posed the question of 'Why does doctrine change?'. The only way to reconcile the fact that LDS doctrine has changed while eternal truths do not.. is to realize that LDS doctrine is not absolute truth, right? There is absolutely nothing wrong with that either.. you have to walk before you can run.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine makes it quite clear that the assertion that Brigham Young was claiming that Adam and Elohim are the same person is patently false. Mc Conkie points out that the term "god" as applied to Adam is used in the same sense as in the Book of Elijah, when the Saints are called "gods", a verse quoted by Christ himself to substantiate his right to claim he is the Son of God. McConkie made the argument that all heirs of exaltation can be rightly called "gods" since that will be their final glory. Adam has already attained his glory and has been deifiied. So Brigham Young was correct in stating that we will all answer to Adam as our God. That does not mean Adam does not in turn answer to Jehovah, who in turn answers to Elohim. There is a heirarchy of divine persons, with Elohim at the top, then Jehovah, then Adam, and so forth. Adam (Michael) is the God of this particular world. Jehovah governs this world along with countless others, each with its own Adam, while Elohim is the great King of all his creation. It is the misquoting and misinterpretation of Brigham Young's statement that led people to invent the Adam-God theory, which stated that Adam was Elohim. Please read all of Elder McConkie's entry on "Adam-God Theory" on pages 18-19 of Mormon Doctrine.

[Snow]

Elder Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine makes it quite clear that the assertion that Brigham Young was claiming that Adam and Elohim are the same person is patently false.

Let me get this straight. You are deny that Brigham Young taught that Adam was God and as proof you cite McConkie's opinion of what he thought BY meant?

Adam has already attained his glory and has been deifiied. So Brigham Young was correct in stating that we will all answer to Adam as our God. That does not mean Adam does not in turn answer to Jehovah, who in turn answers to Elohim.

Can you please reference a modern, current, Church authority who teaches that we answer to God Adam?

[pam]

I"m going to close this thread temporarily while it goes through admin review. The personal attacks are getting ridiculous and totally uncalled for.