The People before Adam

[bytor2112]

I have already shown you a few examples of whole verses missing and some partially missing not to mention the ones where changes in the text gives us the wrong or at least confusing messages.

Show me the original autograph and we can find what was really written down.

Biblical worship....dogma at it's worst.

[bytor2112]

you have yet to identify an error. And you wont find one, so if I were you I would spend time doing something else rather than looking.

An interesting read RRR1 if you click HERE

[RRR1]

I have already shown you a few examples of whole verses missing and some partially missing not to mention the ones where changes in the text gives us the wrong or at least confusing messages.

Show me the original autograph and we can find what was really written down.

Sorry Johnny I havent been ignoring you on purpose but can you give me those examples again. I must have missed them. Thanks.

[RRR1]

An interesting read RRR1 if you click HERE

wow that is long. Let me read this and get back with you tomorrow. Its almost midnight here and getting late. Thanks.

[JohnnyRudick]

Sorry Johnny I havent been ignoring you on purpose but can you give me those examples again. I must have missed them. Thanks.

That would be post 201

It may be in this area for you

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/31799-people-before-adam-21.html#post498412

[RRR1]

An interesting read RRR1 if you click HERE

ok I read part of it. Here are some thoughts.

First off the article if right about 2 Timothy 3:15 in that Holy Scriptures talks about the OT. However verse 16 they have wrong. Grammatically similar Greek constructions (Romans 7:12, 2 Corinthians 10:10, 1 Timothy 1:15, 1 Timothy 2:3, and 1 Timothy 4:4) argue that the translation "All Scripture is given by inspiration" is accurate. 2 Peter 3:15-16 says that the NT is identified as Scripture.

Under the Geography, Mark and Luke probably say Gadarenes because "country of" refers to the general region of Gersa and was under the jurisdiction of the city of Gadara.

Under misquoted Scripture, the quote was under Zechariah, but the Hebrew canon was divided into 3 sections, Law, Writings, and Prophets (Luke 24:44). Jeremiah came first in the order of the prophetic books so the Prophets were sometimes collectively called by his name.

Im not sure what the Mark1:2 is about. Mark 1:2 is quoting Isaiah 40:3 as well as Malachi 3:1 . Matthew 3:3, Luke 3:4, and John 1:23 only quote Isaiah. So since Mark is from two sources that is why he put "The Prophets" instead of Isaiah.

Under resurrection difficulties, there were most likely 2 angels. Matthew and Mark probably only mention one because they concentrate on the one that spoke.

As far as missing books, these books that were mentioned are non-canonical, but reliable historical records that the writer used. God's Spirit protected the Bible from error and omitted these. We can go back to 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and 2 Peter 1:20-21.

I cant touch on every subject because it would take way too long. But of these, I see no error and no problems with the Bible.

[RRR1]

Not so sure about all of that myself.

If we were to stand on all the bible versions out there to settle our differences we would be in a world of hurt:(

A person could list the differences between the versions "'till the cows come home" and I do not believe you could come to an end to it.

And if you were to go into discourse about why the differences are important you would never get done.

Here are just a few.

NKJV - "And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads." So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." (Acts 9:5-6)

NASB - "And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do." (Acts 9:5-6)

KJB - "16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. (Matthew 17:16-21)

NIV - "16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him."

17 "O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me."

18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.

19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"

20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

21 [no verse here]

KJB -10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. (Matthew 18:10&11)

NIV - 10 "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

11 [no verse here]

NKJV - "in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins." (Colossians 1:14)

NASB - "in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Colossians 1:14)

NKJV - "And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!" (Luke 1:28)

NASB - "And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you." (Luke 1:28)

KJB - 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! (Matt. 23:12-16)

NIV - 12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

14 [no verse here]

15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16 "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' (Matt. 23:12-16)

KJB - 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.(Mark 9:43 - 48)

NIV - 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

44 [no verse here]

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.

46 [no verse here]

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,

48 where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'(Mark 9:43 - 48)

KJB - 25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. (Mark 11:25&26)

NIV - 25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

26 [no verse here] (Mark 11:25&26)

NKJV - "and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus." (Matthew 1:25)

NIV - "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. (Matthew 1:25)

Even messing with the person of Jesus and confounding Him with Lucifer

compare these verses.

First, Revelation 22:16 in three versions:

NKJV - "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."

NASB - "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

NIV - "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

All three versions identify Jesus as the Morning Star. No problem there. Now read the three versions of Isaiah 14:12:

NKJV - "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!"

NASB - "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!"

NIV - "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!"

This could cause at least a little confusion, Right?

Or how about the most famous verse in the Bible?

NKJV - "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

NIV - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

And so many wonder why there is so much confusion among even so-called Bible Believing Christians.

The only thing I see here is a couple of verses are either added or omitted in some translations. I will look into this. As far as the rest of them including John 3:16 I have no clue what you are talking about. All the verses look the same to me.

[rameumptom]

God does not deal in gray areas. See Revelation 3 in the letter to the church at Laodicea. God only deals in hot or cold. He hates Lukewarm.

What is the verse about the the 4 corners. Im sure you arent looking at the context to which that verse was written. I'll have to get back to you, but I can guarantee that is not what is meant. Even you saying the world is flat, what if 4 corners meant 3D? Then the Earth would be a box. Even your logic there is flawed.

It is well known history that Christians believed the world to be flat. For most, such an idea did not disappear until the times of Columbus, when science and exploration showed it was round.

The Bible is also earth-centric, meaning the earth is in the center of the universe. This is why Galileo had such a hard time with Church leaders when he showed the earth was not in the center.

And I mentioned gray areas, not lukewarm. Two different things.

[rameumptom]

ok I read part of it. Here are some thoughts.

First off the article if right about 2 Timothy 3:15 in that Holy Scriptures talks about the OT. However verse 16 they have wrong. Grammatically similar Greek constructions (Romans 7:12, 2 Corinthians 10:10, 1 Timothy 1:15, 1 Timothy 2:3, and 1 Timothy 4:4) argue that the translation "All Scripture is given by inspiration" is accurate. 2 Peter 3:15-16 says that the NT is identified as Scripture.

.

You are WAY off on your understanding. The New Testament could not have been identified by Peter, because most of it had not yet been written! Much of the NT was written AFTER his death. And it was not compiled into the NT until centuries afterward.

[Traveler]

:facepalm

I dont like using the word race because there is only one race, the human race. So I'll use ethnicity. How many ethnicities are there currently? You got black, Caucasian, Indian, Chinese, Japenese, Mexican, etc, etc. Noah (obviously as well as Adam) had to have had a lot of different genes in order to spread different blood types, eye color, pigmentation of the skin, etc. Animals were the same way. He probably brought one type of dog that carried all genes. After year and years of mating with each other, you now have poodles, German Shepherds, etc. You only need one type of dog, one type of worm, one type of human. You dont need one black person, one white person, one Asian etc. So yes there was enough room for every type of animal known to man.

The problem is that you do not understand what a species is. Different species cannot produce offspring without creating a hybrid that cannot produce offspring. Since German shepherds and poodles can have offspring with each other these are not different species. Likewise since all humans (male and female) can have children with each other there is only one human species. Now as I have said there is not enough room on the ark for all the known species of worms. So the worms must violate the creation and word of G-d to reproduce their own kind for sometime following the flood (which is not scripture) or Noah really did not take all species of animals and plants and they were preserved by other means. Whichever it is we are left with one of three possibilities concerning the Bible. Ether the Bible is wrong from the moment it was written or what the Bible said when it was first written has been altered or we have misinterpreted what the Bible says. None of which helps the cause that the modern versions derived from the ancient scriptures of the Bible are G-d breathed. If someone demands that a red light is green – I can know absolutely that they are wrong by simply looking at the light.

What concerns me is that you have not taken the time yourself to investigate the most important element of what you say you believe. This is the primary reason that scientist like myself find little or no credibility by many religious individuals. If a person cannot accept and recognize truth as it is available to all to seek, ask and easily verify – how can they be trusted to tell the truth of anything difficult to verify. It is like they look and the preponderance of evidence and deny truth as though they stand in the sun at noon day and say it is night.

The Traveler

[Adomini22]

In regards to the earth being 6,000 years old so far....

Link?

The section in D&C eludes me - I will search for it tomorrow. It is located in the section where JS proclaims that the Holy Ghost is a spirit, while God and Jesus have physical bodies, and that the earth will become a Urim and Thummim.....

But here are some quotes to back it up (long, sorry guys!)

The Lord Almighty never created a world like this and peopled it for six thousand years, as He has done, without having some motive in view. (Journal of Discourses 25:9, January 6, 1884. The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p. 8)

After passing over the ages and generations of the children of men for about six thousand years, we will come to the present congregation and say the right of heirship is the same now that it was in the beginning. (Journal of Discourses, Vol.6, p.307, Brigham Young, April 8, 1853)

Let us ask what the nations of the earth have accomplished for the last six or seven thousand years. What great work have they achieved? What have the greatest warriors and statesmen that have existed from the beginning done? What good have they accomplished for the world? What boon have they handed down to posterity, and how much better are we off because they lived, because they moved upon the earth, and because they possessed a certain power upon it? They have accomplished a solemn nothing. Where are those mighty conquerors and bright geniuses now? Where are some of the mightiest men? and what has become of the nations and cities where they flourished? It has become a matter of doubt where even the foundations of Babylon and Nineveh were laid. Egypt, it is true, has preserved some of its ancient monuments, kings, and princes unto the present day. What are those men? Loathsome mummies. What are they doing with them? The great Potiphars, Ptolemies, and Pharaohs are now being used for fuel to make steam to drive railway cars. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 2, John Taylor, February 19, 1860)

The world has had a fair trial for six thousand years; the Lord will try the seventh thousand Himself; (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Five 1842-43 p.252)

We know the root and foundation of this hatred. It comes from the pulpit, from corrupt priests. Say they, "These people possess a union and a power that we do not possess, and if we let them alone, they will come and take away our place and nation, and we shall lose our fat livings." There is where it originated--with priests and deacons, with hounds professing to be Christians, but who are no better than the devils in hell. From the pulpit it has spread into political society, and they all hate us. Why? Because the priesthood of the Son of God is among this people, and they know that if we are let alone we shall convert the world and bring it into subjection to the law of Christ. The devil says, "I have had power over the earth for six thousand years, and do you think I am going to loose my grasp upon it? No, I will hold it, and before ever the Latter-day Saints obtain one foot of inheritance upon it they will have to contest it inch by inch." But we will contend with him until we gain power and influence sufficient to convert the world. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 12, p. 271, Brigham Young, August 16th, 1868)

We are living in the dispensation and generation to which Jesus referred--the time appointed by God for the last six thousand years, through the mouths of all the prophets and inspired men who have lived and left their sayings on record, in which his Zion should be built up and continue upon the earth. These prophecies will have their fulfilment before the world; and all who will not repent will be engulfed in the destructions which are in store for the wicked. If men do not cease from their murders, whoredoms, and all the wickedness and abominations which fill the black catalogue of the crimes of the world, judgment will overtake them; and whether we are believed or not, these sayings are true, and I bear my testimony as a servant of God and as an Elder in Israel to the truth of the events which are going to follow very fast on each other. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 5, Wilford Woodruff, January 1, 1871)

We know, according to the declaration of the Scriptures, that our earth was made some few thousands years ago. How long the progress of formation lasted we do not know. It is called in the Scriptures six days; but we do not know the meaning of the scriptural term day. It evidently does not mean such days as we are now acquainted with--days governed by the rotation of the earth on its axis, and by the shining of the great central luminary of our solar system. A day of twenty-four hours is not the kind of day referred to in the scriptural account of the creation; the word days, in the Scriptures, seems oftentimes to refer to some indefinite period of time. The Lord, in speaking to Adam in the garden, says, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die;" yet he did not die within twenty-four hours after he had eaten the forbidden fruit, but he lived to be almost a thousand years old, from which we learn that the word day, in this passage, had no reference to days of the same duration as ours. Again, it is written, in the second chapter of Genesis, "In the day that He created the heavens and the earth;" not six days, but, "in the day" that he did it, incorporating all the six days into one, and calling that period "the day" that He created the heavens and the earth. When this world was formed, no doubt, it was a very beautiful creation, for God is not the author of anything imperfect. If we have imperfections in our world God has had nothing to do with their introduction or origin, man has brought them upon himself and upon the earth he inhabits. But however long or short may have been the period of the construction of this earth, we find that some six thousand years ago it seems to have been formed, something after the fashion and in the manner in which it now exists, with the exception of the imperfections, evils, and curses that exist on the face of it. Six thousand years, according to the best idea that we have of chronology, are now about completed; we are living almost on the eve of the last of the six millenniums--a thousand years are called a millennium--and to-morrow, we may say, will be the seventh; that is the seventh period, the seventh age or seventh time; or we can call it a day--the seventh day, the great day of rest wherein our globe will rest from all wickedness, when there will be no sin or transgression upon the whole face of it, the curses that have been brought upon it being removed, and all things being restored as they were before the Fall. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 234, Orson Pratt, August 20, 1871)

As there is one day out of seven set apart, sanctified and ordained as a day of rest, so there is one thousand years set apart as a day of rest out of the seven thousand which will constitute the temporal existence of our earth. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 350, Orson Pratt, March 10, 1872)

Now, if I have not already occupied too much time, I desire to dwell a little upon the subject of the chronology of our world. We have no dates on which we can depend as to the period or history of our globe from the creation down to the present time. Chronologists differ in regard to the history and age of the world. Some make the age of the world, from the creation to the coming of Christ, to be four thousand years. Archbishop Usher has introduced this chronology into King James' Bible; and in that you will find all the dates adapted to that particular reckoning; and according to his reckoning you will find that Christ came in the year of the world 4004. Is this to be depended upon? Not at all. Many chronologists equally as learned, and who have made deeper researches than he has on this subject, differ with him materially. There are many who place the birth of Christ at 5500 years from the creation; others place it at 5490, others at 5508 or 9 years. There are about two hundred chronologists who all differ in regard to this matter. Many Jewish chronologists make it over six thousand years from the creation till the birth of Christ, so that you see when we attempt to take up the subject on the learning of the world, we are in the midst of confusion--no person knows anything about it. It is not really necessary that we should know, but we have some little light on this subject. We know that it was not six thousand years from the creation to the birth of Christ. How do we know this? God has told us in new revelation that this earth is destined to continue its temporal existence for seven thousand years, and that at the commencement of the seventh thousand, he will cause seven angels to sound their trumpets. In other words, we may call it the Millennium, for the meaning of the world millennium is a thousand years. Six thousand years must pass away from the creation till the time that Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven, and he will not come exactly at the expiration of six thousand years. When the Prophet Joseph asked the Lord what was meant by the sounding of the seven trumpets, he was told, "That as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth; even so in the beginning of the seventh thousand years, will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things and shall redeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power when he shall have sealed all things unto the end of all things, and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels is the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years; to prepare the way before the time of his coming." This quotation will be found in the Pearl of Great Price. Neither of these trumpets have sounded yet, but they shortly will; and this gives us a little clue to the period and age of our world. We know that six thousand years have not yet elapsed since the creation, but we know that they have very nearly expired.

But how long that morning had existed we do not know, unless we appeal to the Book of Abraham, translated by Joseph Smith from Egyptian papyrus. That tells us in plainness that the way the Lord and the celestial host reckoned time, was by the revolutions of a certain great central body called Kolob, which had one revolution on its axis in a thousand of our years, and that was one day with the Lord, and when the Lord said to Adam, "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." the Book of Abraham says it was not yet given unto man the true reckoning of time, and that it was reckoned after the Lord's time that is one thousand years with us was a day with him, and that Adam, if he partook of the forbidden fruit, was to die before that day of a thousand years should expire. Hence when we go back to the history of the creation, we find that the Lord was not in such a great hurry as many suppose, but that he took indefinite periods of long duration to construct this world, and to gather together the elements by the laws of gravitation to lay the foundation and form the nucleus thereof, and when he saw that all things were ready and properly prepared, he then placed the man in the Garden of Eden to rule over all animals, fish and fowls, and to have dominion over the whole face of the earth. (Journal of Discourses, Vol.15, p.263, Orson Pratt, December 29, 1872)

[JohnnyRudick]

In regards to the earth being 6,000 years old so far....

The section in D&C eludes me - I will search for it tomorrow. It is located in the section where JS proclaims that the Holy Ghost is a spirit, while God and Jesus have physical bodies, and that the earth will become a Urim and Thummim.....

. . .

As I pointed out in an earlier post it can be found in;

Doctrine and Covenants 77:6 Q. What are we to understand by the

book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven

seals? A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed

will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his

economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of

its continuance, or its temporal existence.

[Adomini22]

Thank you! I knew I was not the only one to read that!

[RRR1]

It is well known history that Christians believed the world to be flat. For most, such an idea did not disappear until the times of Columbus, when science and exploration showed it was round.

The Bible is also earth-centric, meaning the earth is in the center of the universe. This is why Galileo had such a hard time with Church leaders when he showed the earth was not in the center.

And I mentioned gray areas, not lukewarm. Two different things.

Not sure why. JohnnyRudick already posted a verse proving the world to be spherical. Also the 4 corners of the earth could mean North, South, East, and West.

Can you provide a link about Galileo? I believe the universe to be finite. Nothing can be bigger than God so the universe has to have an end. In order for it to be proven that the Earth is NOT the center you have to have found the end of the universe and I didnt know this was already proven. So can you please provide a link somewhere to prove both the Earth is not the center and to prove the universe is finite? Thanks.

[RRR1]

You are WAY off on your understanding. The New Testament could not have been identified by Peter, because most of it had not yet been written! Much of the NT was written AFTER his death. And it was not compiled into the NT until centuries afterward.

John 10:34-35, John 17:17, Titus 1:2, Proverbs 30:5, 1 Corinthians 14:36-37, 1 Thessalonians 2:13 are more verses proving the Scripture is God breathed, inerrant, and is the truth.

To me this seems like a TON of errors and to believe a book with this many errors is insane.

[RRR1]

The problem is that you do not understand what a species is. Different species cannot produce offspring without creating a hybrid that cannot produce offspring. Since German shepherds and poodles can have offspring with each other these are not different species. Likewise since all humans (male and female) can have children with each other there is only one human species. Now as I have said there is not enough room on the ark for all the known species of worms. So the worms must violate the creation and word of G-d to reproduce their own kind for sometime following the flood (which is not scripture) or Noah really did not take all species of animals and plants and they were preserved by other means. Whichever it is we are left with one of three possibilities concerning the Bible. Ether the Bible is wrong from the moment it was written or what the Bible said when it was first written has been altered or we have misinterpreted what the Bible says. None of which helps the cause that the modern versions derived from the ancient scriptures of the Bible are G-d breathed. If someone demands that a red light is green – I can know absolutely that they are wrong by simply looking at the light.

What concerns me is that you have not taken the time yourself to investigate the most important element of what you say you believe. This is the primary reason that scientist like myself find little or no credibility by many religious individuals. If a person cannot accept and recognize truth as it is available to all to seek, ask and easily verify – how can they be trusted to tell the truth of anything difficult to verify. It is like they look and the preponderance of evidence and deny truth as though they stand in the sun at noon day and say it is night.

The Traveler

What concerns me is your belief in a book that you claim to be false. Its almost funny.

[HiJolly]

What concerns me is your belief in a book that you claim to be false. Its almost funny.

Paradox is at the heart of everything meaningful in life, RRR1.

Jesus taught not in literally true stories, but in parables, made-up stories with an eternally valuable message. Were they 'true'?

Of course they were.

HiJolly

[Snow]

John 10:34-35, John 17:17, Titus 1:2, Proverbs 30:5, 1 Corinthians 14:36-37, 1 Thessalonians 2:13 are more verses proving the Scripture is God breathed, inerrant, and is the truth.

To me this seems like a TON of errors and to believe a book with this many errors is insane.

If you mean that those verses prove that the Bible is true and inerrant - then that is absolutely false and you should be ashamed for making stuff up.

You seem to know very little about the Bible, not even knowing that Maccabees is part of it.

[Moksha]

Except that we supposedly descend from CroMagnon man. Neanderthals died out long before Adam....

Good point. Cro-Magnon man was definitely Homo Sapien, but had some differing traits such as being a bit taller, more robust and having a larger brain size. Almost like a cross between a football player and a nerd.

Here is an interesting graphic detailing the range of the men and the Neanderthals. They coexisted for at least 10,000 years.

[Moksha]

I was not even aware that Chimp DNA had even been fully sequenced for a fair comparison.

Johnny, I think this comparison was made by adding together shorter DNA sequences into a longer DNA strand and then comparing them. Of course there is differentiation, since the Chimp is of a different species, but within the same genera, the Chimp is the closest to us genetically.

Even so, that does not mean either of us is a monkey's uncle.

[Seminarysnoozer]

EDIT: I changed the yes and no continuation of question 3 to make sense. If you've already answered, ignore the previous version and use only the edited version.

Hello Seminarysnoozer. :)

You're welcome.

Before I go any further, I just want to know what your answers are to a few questions so that we can establish a baseline or troubleshoot where the disagreement lies. I hope you don't mind doing this exercise:

1. Do you believe that stating "I am a child of God" correctly describes one's identity? If yes, then continue to the next questions. If no, then answer no more questions because we'll need to start from another baseline.

2. Do you believe that a spirit child of God constitutes a person that is either a man or a woman? If yes, continue. If no, then you may stop here.

3. Do you believe that when a spirit person obtains a physical, mortal body that the spirit's identity as a child of God, as a person, and their identity as a man or a woman ceases to be the case? If yes, you may stop. If no, please continue.

4. Can the physical body live without the spirit? If yes, please continue. If no, you may stop.

5. Do you agree with the following statement?

A spirit child of God obtained their identity as a person and as a man or as a woman long before they received their physical body, therefore the spirit of a person, and not their body, is the essential component of a person's identity.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Regards,

Finrock

EDIT: I changed the yes and no continuation option of question 3 to make sense. If you've already answered, ignore the previous version and use only the edited version.

Thanks. 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. It doesn't cease but it could be greatly obscured by the passions of the body, the spirit is simply hidden underneath those passions. 4. I don't know. We can make individual cells live outside the body. Why not? 5. Yes, absolutely ... that was my point - this body is not who we really are.

I agree with all those things. Where are you going with this?

I absolutely believe our spirit being is who we really are not the body. I thought that was my point. In this existence the body overpowers who we really are and that is part of the test, to find who we really are. But if we don't hunt and feel the spirit we will not know who we really are because it is overpowered by the nature of this body (which includes personality, physical appearance, and primitive drives - i.e. pleasure derived from food, music, art, sexual drives etc.)

One proof of that is to think about people born with trisomy 21 or 18. Or do you think their spirits were of that form and therefore they were born to a body with similar traits? That seems really absurd to me. Well, then you might say, they have diseases. But this is my point, we all have "diseases" and genetic variations from the original creation. I know that because we all die. The only perfect creation is one that doesn't die. So, we are all changed in our appearance and talents and abilities and likes and dislikes to formulate this test. If we all had perfect bodies I would go as far as saying that we would look all very similar and likely nothing like how we look now (unless you think will live forever in your current state and you think you have a perfect body of course - which would be a very arrogant statement).

The other thing to think about is the fact that we say that we are all created in the image of God and yet there is a lot of variability in the way humans look. Just think of the tallest man ever 8'11'' compared to the shortest 1'10''. Looking at just one aspect, height, if there is a 7' variability and yet we are all created in the image of God then that is how far off we could be from God's physical person in just one aspect. When we are all restored to the original creation which is Adam and Eve, the perfect version of our bodies, restoring every 'hair of the head' we will all look quite different from the way we now look. Our current look is one of millions of genetic mutations and defects and even "curses".

Edited May 2, 2010 by Seminarysnoozer
Answered questions specifically

[rameumptom]

John 10:34-35, John 17:17, Titus 1:2, Proverbs 30:5, 1 Corinthians 14:36-37, 1 Thessalonians 2:13 are more verses proving the Scripture is God breathed, inerrant, and is the truth.

To me this seems like a TON of errors and to believe a book with this many errors is insane.

This is all opinion and assumption on your part. I read those verses very differently than you do. I see them as saying scripture is inspired. But that does not mean they are perfect nor complete. Again, Peter could not have said that the Bible is God Breathed, because the Bible did not exist in his day. Only separate books and letters floating around. The Dead Sea Scrolls include most of the Old Testament, but also hundreds of other spiritual writings. Do we include them in the God Breathed scriptures?

In the early Church, books like Enoch, Shepherd of Hermas and many others were considered inspired, or God Breathed. Yet, St Jerome did not put them in the final Bible list. Are we to believe the early Christians or St Jerome, when it comes to what should have been in the Bible?

Such errors only make one insane if one insists on perfection in the written word. That seems to be your problem. And it is for many Christians, because they do not believe in continuing revelation through modern prophets. Modern prophets can guide us to know what God's will is, and help us to understand what is truly important. But without a modern Peter or Moses to guide us, then people are left to figure it out all by themselves. And one way to do that is to imagine that previous writings are absolutely perfect and complete - even when the scriptures show they are not! There are more than a dozen books mentioned in the Bible that are not in the Bible. The New Testament quotes Enoch several times, but St Jerome did not include it. The Dead Sea Scrolls are essentially another Old Testament - showing we are missing hundreds of sacred books.

Ignore the evidence if you will. But just know that the truth can make you free. With an understanding that the scriptures are inspired, but not complete, we can then move forward to accept modern apostles and prophets to guide us.

[RRR1]

If you mean that those verses prove that the Bible is true and inerrant - then that is absolutely false and you should be ashamed for making stuff up.

You seem to know very little about the Bible, not even knowing that Maccabees is part of it.

In other words what you are saying is this? "RRR1, because you can read, you can tell that those verses mean that the Bible is inerrant and true. Because Im brain washed I will not accept the truth that you have laid in front of me."

Snow, prove that Maccabees is in the Bible. Once you do that, I will sell all my posessions. I will then fly to wherever you are in this world and give you all the money I have. Seems like I know more about the Bible than you.

[RRR1]

This is all opinion and assumption on your part. I read those verses very differently than you do. I see them as saying scripture is inspired. But that does not mean they are perfect nor complete. Again, Peter could not have said that the Bible is God Breathed, because the Bible did not exist in his day. Only separate books and letters floating around. The Dead Sea Scrolls include most of the Old Testament, but also hundreds of other spiritual writings. Do we include them in the God Breathed scriptures?

In the early Church, books like Enoch, Shepherd of Hermas and many others were considered inspired, or God Breathed. Yet, St Jerome did not put them in the final Bible list. Are we to believe the early Christians or St Jerome, when it comes to what should have been in the Bible?

Such errors only make one insane if one insists on perfection in the written word. That seems to be your problem. And it is for many Christians, because they do not believe in continuing revelation through modern prophets. Modern prophets can guide us to know what God's will is, and help us to understand what is truly important. But without a modern Peter or Moses to guide us, then people are left to figure it out all by themselves. And one way to do that is to imagine that previous writings are absolutely perfect and complete - even when the scriptures show they are not! There are more than a dozen books mentioned in the Bible that are not in the Bible. The New Testament quotes Enoch several times, but St Jerome did not include it. The Dead Sea Scrolls are essentially another Old Testament - showing we are missing hundreds of sacred books.

Ignore the evidence if you will. But just know that the truth can make you free. With an understanding that the scriptures are inspired, but not complete, we can then move forward to accept modern apostles and prophets to guide us.

I think you are right. But the problem with Christianity is we dont accept these modern prophets. Do you consider Muhammad a prophet? Who decides who a prophet is? Who decided Joseph Smith was a prophet?

I believe we dont need prophets nowadays. Once Jesus died and the veil was torn, anyone could enter the Holy of Holies. Once Jesus died everything changed. We dont need a High Priest of prophet to guide us. We can go to God directly.

[bytor2112]

In other words what you are saying is this? "RRR1, because you can read, you can tell that those verses mean that the Bible is inerrant and true. Because Im brain washed I will not accept the truth that you have laid in front of me."

Snow, prove that Maccabees is in the Bible. Once you do that, I will sell all my posessions. I will then fly to wherever you are in this world and give you all the money I have. Seems like I know more about the Bible than you.

RRR1.....you have already said that you haven't read the Bible cover to cover. So, why would anyone view you as any kind of scriptural authority? The Bible is TRUE...it is not however without error and it most definitely IS incomplete.