The People before Adam

[HiJolly]

Where may I find copies of those letters?

I would try reading Sterling B. Talmage's book Can Science Be Faith-promoting? (SLC: Blue Ribbon Books, 2001): pp.190-195.

Here's a comment from David H. Bailey, based on information from that book: "In the 1920s, LDS Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith became enamored with Price’s writings. He was particularly impressed by Price’s syllogism, “No Adam, no fall; no fall, no atonement; no atonement, no savior.” He corresponded with Price, encouraging him in his efforts to defeat evolution, and then began writing a manuscript laying out what he regarded as the LDS case against evolution."

This was taken from an article David wrote, found here: http://www.dhbailey.com/papers/dhb-creationism.pdf

David is an exceptional scientist, an acquaintance of mine, he has a lot of excellent articles, found here: Papers Directory

Here's his recent testimony (on Dan Petersen's site) Mormon Scholars Testify Blog Archive David H. Bailey

HiJolly

[JohnnyRudick]

I would try reading Sterling B. Talmage's book Can Science Be Faith-promoting? (SLC: Blue Ribbon Books, 2001): pp.190-195.

Here's a comment from David H. Bailey, based on information from that book: "In the 1920s, LDS Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith became enamored with Price’s writings. He was particularly impressed by Price’s syllogism, “No Adam, no fall; no fall, no atonement; no atonement, no savior.” He corresponded with Price, encouraging him in his efforts to defeat evolution, and then began writing a manuscript laying out what he regarded as the LDS case against evolution."

This was taken from an article David wrote, found here: http://www.dhbailey.com/papers/dhb-creationism.pdf

David is an exceptional scientist, an acquaintance of mine, he has a lot of excellent articles, found here: Papers Directory

Here's his recent testimony (on Dan Petersen's site) Mormon Scholars Testify Blog Archive David H. Bailey

HiJolly

So, now I am wondering:mellow:

Does this qualify under the idea that we seek after truth

no matter where it may be found?

[rameumptom]

Margaret Toscano was not one of the so-called September Six.

Unless you have inside information that you should not have, you don't know why they were excommunicated. That information is not shared publicly. What you have is supposition.

I wouldn't call the Church "mean spirited" in the least but it seems clear enough that the excommunications were in some measure a product of the times and the Church's attitude towards the twin evils (not in my eyes - but in the eyes of some in Church hierarchy) of feminists and intellectuals. I doubt that all six would have suffered the same fate in today's Church's more enlightened view. Who knows, but I doubt it.

For what it's worth, I've talked personally with half or so of the Six and with Margaret Toscano, although it has been several years now. Whitesides said her main desire was to hold the priesthood - and she does so know in a Native American church. Quinn still believes the Church is true - it's a pity that such a scholar has come to the sorry state he is in (from my pov). Anderson says she attends Church with more regularity than her Bishop.

I've not talked to Gileadi but he has said in print that his case was different than the other 5 and he does not wish to be lumped in with them.

Hanks used to work for my mom who said she was a lousy employee.

I heard Margaret Toscano talk at a symposium. She had some theory about sex and spirituality that I didn't quite grasp.

I know Margaret was not an official member of the Sept Six. Her husband Paul was. However, she was ex'ed not long afterward. And in the PBS Mormon special, they interview her in regards to the September Six, and she speaks as if she were one of them. I'm thinking she's one in spirit, if nothing else.

I agree that Gileadi wanted nothing to do with the others. Sadly, the timing lumped him in with them. He had issues, he's resolved those issues, and has been an active and faithful member ever since. I've read much of his stuff, and enjoy it very much.

Margaret Toscano discusses in some of her lectures the ancient Semitic sex rites that were connected with the temple. It is possible that some of them were done in connection with the temple in Jerusalem at some periods (such as 600 BC, when Jeremiah complained about worship of the mother in heaven).

I do not have any special information from any of the councils. All I can do is discuss from what several of the disaffected have very loudly proclaimed happened in their councils. I do not consider the Church's councils "mean spirited", I was tongue in cheek on that term, as it is a term I heard a few of the Sept Six use back during the early 1990s.

Quinn is an excellent historian. It is his personal lifestyle choices that keep him from being rebaptized right now, as he has openly come out as a practicing homosexual.

[Hemidakota]

I would try reading Sterling B. Talmage's book Can Science Be Faith-promoting? (SLC: Blue Ribbon Books, 2001): pp.190-195.

Here's a comment from David H. Bailey, based on information from that book: "In the 1920s, LDS Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith became enamored with Price’s writings. He was particularly impressed by Price’s syllogism, “No Adam, no fall; no fall, no atonement; no atonement, no savior.” He corresponded with Price, encouraging him in his efforts to defeat evolution, and then began writing a manuscript laying out what he regarded as the LDS case against evolution."

This was taken from an article David wrote, found here: http://www.dhbailey.com/papers/dhb-creationism.pdf

David is an exceptional scientist, an acquaintance of mine, he has a lot of excellent articles, found here: Papers Directory

Here's his recent testimony (on Dan Petersen's site) Mormon Scholars Testify Blog Archive David H. Bailey

HiJolly

Thanks for the link.

DAVID posting - Recently, I had an epiphany. I realized that if I didn’t want to live in an increasingly polarized world, I needed to speak out for harmony, not warfare, between science and religion. So I have to ask, “Why all the fighting?” Isn’t it remarkable how elegant the laws governing the universe are? And isn’t it particularly remarkable that we humans can comprehend these laws? Why does the fact that we have been able to discover these laws detract from our sense of wonder? Indeed, both scientists and nonscientists can stand in awe at the majesty of the universe, which is now known to be much vaster, more intricate and more magnificent than ever before realized in human history.

I can relate to David’s last paragraph, in having an epiphany, it does change our lives as we live and think. One of those is our understanding of life itself, whether it was learned by academics or church’s curriculum, it will be altered and corrected. We simply stop labeling it as science or religious but labeled it as truth now.

I stand in total amazement in seeing how laws do govern life forms from a simple cell to a controlling universe.

[HiJolly]

So, now I am wondering:mellow:

Does this qualify under the idea that we seek after truth

no matter where it may be found?

Those who seek learn quickly the need for discernment. You have to sift through a lot of horse pucky to finally find the pony.

I don't think Pres. Smith was looking for truth as much as he was looking for help in strengthening his argument against evolution. Those who think they already have the truth rarely make much of an effort to find more. Unfortunately.

One who says "I know that I am less than the dust of the earth" as a result of God's grace, also knows he has a lot to learn.

Helaman 12:7 O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth.

Moses 1:10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Quinn is an excellent historian. It is his personal lifestyle choices that keep him from being rebaptized right now, as he has openly come out as a practicing homosexual.

Well. I disagree about Quinn being an excellent historian.

I think he does exceptionally well in research. That's about it.

HiJolly

[JohnnyRudick]

Those who seek learn quickly the need for discernment. You have to sift through a lot of horse pucky to finally find the pony.

I don't think Pres. Smith was looking for truth as much as he was looking for help in strengthening his argument against evolution. Those who think they already have the truth rarely make much of an effort to find more. Unfortunately.

One who says "I know that I am less than the dust of the earth" as a result of God's grace, also knows he has a lot to learn.

Helaman 12:7 O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth.

Moses 1:10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

HiJolly

Oh, then we really should not try to glean truth from "just" any source

regardless of it's source?

Edited May 19, 2010 by JohnnyRudick
Afterthought;-)

[Hemidakota]

So, now I am wondering:mellow:

Does this qualify under the idea that we seek after truth

no matter where it may be found?

Yes, if you are ready accept some startling facts. Some of which, may be disturbing.

[HiJolly]

Oh, then we really should not try to glean truth from "just" any source

regardless of it's source?

I am willing to look at practically any source at first. If the signal to noise ratio gets too uncomfortable, I move on. Or if my wife complains, that's a good time to move on.

HiJolly

[Moksha]

From the link provided by HiJolly on the Roberts-Talmadge-Smith Affair:

Armed with this response Elder Talmage brought up the subject of Smith's paper in the April 1931 meeting called to bring the issue to a final solution. In this heated meeting, as he later wrote to his son, Talmage used Sterling's evidence to "show up James McCready Price in all his unenviable colors." ... Finally, Talmage made it clear to his assembled brethren that all reputable geologists recognized the existence both of death and "pre-Adamites" prior to 6,000 years ago, the presumed date of the fall of Adam.

This view, of course, was vigorously denied by Smith, and "a serious disruption between and among certain brethren" was in the offing.

This could lead one to observe that sometimes faith can provide fullness in the absence of truth.

:)

[JohnnyRudick]

From the link provided by HiJolly on the Roberts-Talmadge-Smith Affair:

This could lead one to observe that sometimes faith can provide fullness in the absence of truth.

:)

But not the death of anything that had to do with Adam or the animals that came with him.

Adam nor the animals associated with him had any death till the fall.

That is the way I believe the Scripture reads.

[Snow]

But not the death of anything that had to do with Adam or the animals that came with him.

Adam nor the animals associated with him had any death till the fall.

That is the way I believe the Scripture reads.

Regardless of how you read the scriptures, it is a FACT that death existed before the Fall as described in the Bible. You can disagree all you like but you are factually and irrationally wrong.

[JohnnyRudick]

Regardless of how you read the scriptures, it is a FACT that death existed before the Fall as described in the Bible. You can disagree all you like but you are factually and irrationally wrong.

Death may have existed before Adam but it had nothing to do with Adam or his race.

This was a race of beings who were cleaned off the face of the planet before the setting up of the Garden of Eden.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the

earth.

Old Earth

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and

darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God

moved upon the face of the waters.

New Beginnings.

[Snow]

Death may have existed before Adam but it had nothing to do with Adam or his race.

This was a race of beings who were cleaned off the face of the planet before the setting up of the Garden of Eden.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the

earth.

Old Earth

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and

darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God

moved upon the face of the waters.

New Beginnings.

Whatever you say Johnny, it's all a product of your mind. Arguing about it doesn't matter.

[JohnnyRudick]

Whatever you say Johnny, it's all a product of your mind. Arguing about it doesn't matter.

Death may have existed before Adam but it had nothing to do with Adam or his race.

This was a race of beings who were cleaned off the face of the planet before the setting up of the Garden of Eden.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the

earth.

Old Earth created and the space around the earth.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and

darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God

moved upon the face of the waters.

The old Earth is "void"ed and now we have the old light gone and

darkness on the face of the heavens around the earth and the earth itself.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was

light.

Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God

divided the light from the darkness.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he

called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Old earth with old remains of the old dead but

New Beginnings of a new creation.

Took 7 days to transplant into the old earth.

[Hemidakota]

Regardless of how you read the scriptures, it is a FACT that death existed before the Fall as described in the Bible. You can disagree all you like but you are factually and irrationally wrong.

There is no facts that can back up your statement. Either you believe in Moses statement or you don't.

And don't try to undig the earth filled with [animals and life forms] those who failed previously...this had been answered.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I wonder if it would shake everyone's testimony if we found out someday that organic material does not require individual spirits to bring life to that entity. If the Earth as a whole has it's spiritual creation and has it's spiritual being combined to it's matter then when a life form lives and "dies" the material stays on the earth and therefore there is no separation of spirit from the body of the earth. We define "death" as a separation of the body from the spirit. And that that spirit doesn't reunite with organic material until the resurrection.

As the world was being prepared for it's purpose, gathering and organizing organic material to form the basis of human existence there could have been many steps along the way that involved organizing organic material into distinct forms that we are now calling species, like the pre-adamite hominids, etc. But just like taking skin cells in a petri dish and forming a layer of skin, or producing an organic entity from a stem cell, I don't think those organic entities necessarily have to have an individual spirit assigned to it's existence to live. Or, would you hold onto the idea that a layer of human skin cells sitting in a petri dish has a "human" spirit in it? Or the bag of donated blood cells, does that have an individual "human" spirit in it? I would think most would say no, maybe just spiritual matter as the whole earth does but not an individual spirit.

Well, at a much more complicated level, why could it not be that all these previous life forms before Adam are like that bag of red blood cells. They are not occupied by individual, sons and daughters of God spirits. And if there is no spirit, when they "die" then there is no separation of spirit from the body and therefore there is no "death". Until, God breathes the spirit entity into Man, Adam and the same for all of his creations, there could not be "death." Could it be that Adam is the first hominid body occupied by a distinct spiritual entity on the Earth and therefore is the first man? And all other life forms changed from their preparatory existence over billions of years to entities now occupied by individual organized intelligence unique to that organic form, each kind unto it's own (as opposed to being occupied by some ubiquitous spiritual entity). And now by doing that, death is introduced to the world.

I am not saying that this is what I believe happened because I do not know. It hasn't yet been revealed to us. I have pondered this possibility. Death means separation of the spirit from it's assigned earthly existence or it means separation from God's presence. So, in religious context, "death" may have a different meaning than the scientific or worldly meaning of the word.

[Moksha]

Could Adam stand as the starting point for the religious ideas of an already existing people?

[HiJolly]

Could Adam stand as the starting point for the religious ideas of an already existing people?

I think you're on to something, but it sure plays havoc with scripture.

HiJolly

[Seminarysnoozer]

Regardless of how you read the scriptures, it is a FACT that death existed before the Fall as described in the Bible. You can disagree all you like but you are factually and irrationally wrong.

That would clash if you just took "death" from a worldly definition but if you are trying to say it disagrees with gospel teachings then you have to use the gospel definition of the word death, which is a separation of the spirit from the body or a separation from God's presence. If the organisms that existed before Adam were part of the preparation for mans existence here, just like growing skin cells on a petri dish, then finding evidence of those dead organisms and "grouping of organic material" may not indicate "death" - separation of spirit from body, unless you know for sure that they had individual "intelligences" associated with them. And if you believe that, I wonder if you believe a bag of donated red blood cells has a individual "intelligence" as it hangs in the bag. Or does synthetic skin have its own "intelligence" that will live on in the next world as a perfected synthetic skin being?

After "death" is introduced to the world, now we can have every living thing be connected to it's own spirit, to each it's own, to stay in that realm. .... just some thoughts.

[Traveler]

Regardless of how you read the scriptures, it is a FACT that death existed before the Fall as described in the Bible. You can disagree all you like but you are factually and irrationally wrong.

Can we ask the question - can there exist a place or kingdom in which there is no death? Is it possible that there was a "place" perpared in "the beginning" for mankind after the fall?

It is interesting to me that in LDS theology - Adam and Eve could not have children in Eden. It would appear that death and physical offspring are related and that without death physical offspring is not possible?

The Traveler

[HiJolly]

Can we ask the question - can there exist a place or kingdom in which there is no death? Is it possible that there was a "place" perpared in "the beginning" for mankind after the fall?

It is interesting to me that in LDS theology - Adam and Eve could not have children in Eden. It would appear that death and physical offspring are related and that without death physical offspring is not possible?

The Traveler

I would say "can there be a place other than this world, where physical death (or anything even like it) can exist!??"

I think not. And I think that the Garden was not here, physically.

HiJolly

[Seminarysnoozer]

I would say "can there be a place other than this world, where physical death (or anything even like it) can exist!??"

I think not. And I think that the Garden was not here, physically.

HiJolly

If you believe the Garden of Eden was not here physically then I would think you would also say that all the animals that Adam named and tended where not here physically either. Then I would wonder if you believe there is life here that was not part of the "original creation." Or do you think all life of every kind was cleared when Adam arrived?

I think what you are saying might be a little play on words because sometimes when we say that something is physical we are saying that it is mortal and when we say it is spiritual, that means it is made immortal. So when you say "I think that the Garden was not here, physically." are you saying that it was not located on the planet? or are you saying it wasn't mortal or made to die?

[Traveler]

If you believe the Garden of Eden was not here physically then I would think you would also say that all the animals that Adam named and tended where not here physically either. Then I would wonder if you believe there is life here that was not part of the "original creation." Or do you think all life of every kind was cleared when Adam arrived?

I think what you are saying might be a little play on words because sometimes when we say that something is physical we are saying that it is mortal and when we say it is spiritual, that means it is made immortal. So when you say "I think that the Garden was not here, physically." are you saying that it was not located on the planet? or are you saying it wasn't mortal or made to die?

My friend – as I look around and with all I have experienced and learned I do not think or believe it is possible for man to avoid death in this environment. I do not believe we have power to observe or in any way alter anything other than our own death. This place of death has no escape no other opportunity.

With all that said – Jesus our Messiah, our Savior, our Redeemer and our G-d of this fallen existence has made intercession and will restore our death to life and will end death and all that comes with a fallen existence allowing death. This all came at a great personal risk and sacrifice to him – but when we find ourselves without death we will discover that it is not at all like this and never will be like this. We will not have this opportunity ever again – ever.

I have no illusions and am very sure that evolution is without doubt a fundamental and observable principle and law that governs this mortal existence that the very foundation of all life that does or can experience this existence conforms to the principle of evolution.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

Can we ask the question - can there exist a place or kingdom in which there is no death? Is it possible that there was a "place" perpared in "the beginning" for mankind after the fall?

Then, the next question is, what is death?

It is interesting to me that in LDS theology - Adam and Eve could not have children in Eden. It would appear that death and physical offspring are related and that without death physical offspring is not possible?

The Traveler

It was based on Lehi's understanding. I believe, we will learn a great deal more in the Celestial kingdom regarding this issue. Then, we have a-mortal beings who require food.