Is Tongues-speech A Human Foreign Language?

[prisonchaplain]

Ray and I had an interesting dialogue going about LDS essentials, and the testimony that the Holy Ghost gives came up, as well as talk about Holy Ghost anointing. Inevitably (that is if you have such a discussion with a Pentecostal minister, it's inevitable) the issue of tongues came up. I thought it might prove interesting to some, so I offer my take as a new string. Also, check the link for a charismatic Catholic's take on the issue.

Pentecostals contend that the gift of speaking in tongues need not be a human language. In fact, in the context of 1 Corinthians 12-14, it probably was not. Otherwise, why have the gift of interpretation? If the primary purpose of the gift of tongues is to communicate a gospel message in a foreign tongue, as some suggest, then the receiver would not need an interpreter. Tongues-speech itself was not understood by the church. Paul also said that speaking in tongues edifies the individual, but it's the interpretation that edifies the church. Thus, the context was that the tongues-speech was an unknown language.

For a more in depth explanation—one offered by a charismatic Catholic, if I’m not mistaken, see the following link:

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ34.HTM

[Snow]

Yeah-

I'd be way so more impressed if someone who verifiably did not speak Flemish, started speaking, verifiably, in Flemish, instead of the complete gibberish that is typically spoken.

I suspect that all or almost all other "glossolalia" is a bunch of nonsense. I further suspect that churches that engage in such nonsense have a higher degree of sexual misconduct amoung their leadership/clergy.

Aside from Christians, certain religious groups also have been observed to practice some form of glossolalia. Glossolalia is evident in the renowned ancient Oracle of Delphi, whereby a priestess of the god Apollo (called a sibyl) speaks in strange utterances, supposedly through the spirit of Apollo in her, but possibly related to high levels of natural gas present in spring waters beneath the temple. Glossolalia has also been observed in shamanism and the Voodoo religion of Haiti; it can often be brought on by the ingestion of hallucinogenic drugs or entheogens such as Psilocybe mushrooms. Skeptics dismiss these cases as simply being in a state of trance, self-hypnotism or religious ecstasy.

[prisonchaplain]

I'd be way so more impressed if someone who verifiably did not speak Flemish, started speaking, verifiably, in Flemish, instead of the complete gibberish that is typically spoken.

Yeah, but that's not the point. The purpose of tongues was not designed by God to convert nonpentecostal religionists, Christian or otherwise. I've become aware that many believe that the tongues spoken in the New Testament was alway human foreign languages, and there are some strong indicators that it just wasn't so.

I further suspect that churches that engage in such nonsense have a higher degree of sexual misconduct amoung their leadership/clergy.

That's an interesting little bomb to toss out. I'm not sure where it comes from, and I'm fairly certain there is no documentation to verify the hypothesis.

Aside from Christians, certain religious groups also have been observed to practice some form of glossolalia. Glossolalia is evident in the renowned ancient Oracle of Delphi, whereby a priestess of the god Apollo (called a sibyl) speaks in strange utterances, supposedly through the spirit of Apollo in her, but possibly related to high levels of natural gas present in spring waters beneath the temple. Glossolalia has also been observed in shamanism and the Voodoo religion of Haiti; it can often be brought on by the ingestion of hallucinogenic drugs or entheogens such as Psilocybe mushrooms. Skeptics dismiss these cases as simply being in a state of trance, self-hypnotism or religious ecstasy.

Nobody counterfeits $3 bills, 'cause the real thing doesn't exist. Might it just be that Satan has inspired counterfeits of something God has chosen to use "to confound the wise?"

[prisonchaplain]

I further suspect that churches that engage in such nonsense have a higher degree of sexual misconduct amoung their leadership/clergy.

I did a quick google search, and it turns out the main culprits in "church sexual misconduct" cases are not Pentecostal/Charismatic clergy (nor Catholic priest, btw), but church volunteers. Also, children are often the perpetrators.

See: http://csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html

The good news is that religious organizations are grappling with the problem, and the rates seem to be falling.

[Snow]

What I would like to know is there any real and testable evidence whatsoever that speaking in tongues is anything other than gibberish?

As for the speaking in tongues and sexual misconduct... It's just something I heard and googleing "speaking in tongues sexual misconduct" gives over 100,000 hits.

On the other matter... sexual misconduct by volunteers is hardly the same issue as misconduct by clergy.

[prisonchaplain]

What I would like to know is there any real and testable evidence whatsoever that speaking in tongues is anything other than gibberish?

No, not from a linguistic-anthropological standpoint. Like many matters relating to communications from or through the Holy Spirit, faith is a huge component. This probably fits under the same category as the reception of "testimonies," or confirmations from the Holy Spirit. When people say, "I sensed God directing me to do such and such." Was it really God? How do you prove it? Well, I just know. I might have gone to some mature believers and sought their input. I might have consulted Scriptures. But, ultimately, by faith I knew that what I had sensed was from God.

Did I really speak strange sounds because the Holy Spirit took control of my tongue, or did a combination of desire, excitement, and perhaps comaradarie lead me to begin speaking unintelligibly, on my own? I'm convinced it was from God, but there is no way to rationally verify it for you.

As for the speaking in tongues and sexual misconduct... It's just something I heard and googleing "speaking in tongues sexual misconduct" gives over 100,000 hits.

So many people come up with so many notions that seem logical. Certain people repeat the idea with authority or charisma. Next thing you know, people are hearing that such and such is true. It hits the internet, is sensational, and you have a new urban legend.

Of course, some might label the above as trafficing in rumors.

On the other matter... sexual misconduct by volunteers is hardly the same issue as misconduct by clergy.

Perhaps. However, like many public stories and rumors, this stuff gets conflated. Church sex scandal...clergy scandal...you know how emotional those pentecostals are...i'll bet they mess around a lot...come to think of it I think I read something on the internet about that...

I was just pointing out that many of the "church sex scandal" headlines you see are likely to involve volunteers, not clergy, and that many even involve children molesting children. Abuse and failure happen, no doubt. But I seriously doubt that one's theology concerning tongues has any correlation to the rates in various fellowships.

[Aristotle]

Aside from Christians, certain religious groups also have been observed to practice some form of glossolalia. Glossolalia is evident in the renowned ancient Oracle of Delphi, whereby a priestess of the god Apollo (called a sibyl) speaks in strange utterances, supposedly through the spirit of Apollo in her, but possibly related to high levels of natural gas present in spring waters beneath the temple.

Remember the movie, "Sybil"...based upon a true story...portrayed by Sally Field. Sybil had many personalities, which stemmed from sexual abuse as a child...and not from a clergyman!

[Guest Syble]

The question to ask is "IS IT EDIFYING?"

Rom. 14: 19

19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

1 Cor. 10: 23

23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

1 Cor. 14: 5

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1 Cor. 14: 12

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

1 Cor. 14: 26

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Eph. 4: 29

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

D&C 50: 23

23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

IF THE ONE SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS SAYING SOMETHING OF SPIRITUAL VALUE WHICH WOULD EDIFY, AND THAT THERE IS SOMEONE TRANSLATING THE NEEDED MESSAGE. OTHERWISE I WOULD PLACE IT IN THE TEXT AS CORRUPT COMMUNICATION.

[Aristotle]

When missionaries learn a new language in the mission home, isn't that a form of "speaking in tongues"? Many must learn a foreign language in such a relatively short time, that I believe the missionaries are truly blessed with the ability to learn these languages so quickly.

During a missionary homecoming, members look forward to hearing the missionary bear their testimony in the language they learned in the mission home. Generally, the missionary translates his/her testimony so that everyone can understand what was said in the foreign tongue.

[prisonchaplain]

The question to ask is "IS IT EDIFYING?"

IF THE ONE SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS SAYING SOMETHING OF SPIRITUAL VALUE WHICH WOULD EDIFY, AND THAT THERE IS SOMEONE TRANSLATING THE NEEDED MESSAGE. OTHERWISE I WOULD PLACE IT IN THE TEXT AS CORRUPT COMMUNICATION.

If so, I feel vindicated. If I speak out in tongues in the congregation, and there is an interpretation, then you have said the message is "needed" or edifying. And, the Scripture verses you cited concur.

But, what if I speak in tongues during private prayer? Is that edifying? What if there is no interpretator?

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God ... He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself. 1 Corinthians 14:2a, 4a.

To summarize how it works in churches that embrace these gifts as being "for today":

1. If a member speaks out in an unknown tongue, the congregation becomes quiet. Afterwards, an interpretation in the venacular of the congregation (i.e., English for most of us) will be spoken. The message is considered to be from God, and to be a specific word for the local congregation. The word given is interpreted in light of Scripture, and may be deemed "not of God," or "of the flesh," of a contradiction is apparent.

2. A member may simply speak out in the venacular of the congregation. This is considered a prophetic word, and is received the same as an interpretation of tongues.

3. If the church is worshiping, or if an individual is involved in personal prayer, s/he may sometimes "pray in the Spirit," meaning to pray in tongues. We believe this is direct communication between our spirits and God. No interpretation is necessary, which is why we should both pray in the Spirit and with understanding.

When missionaries learn a new language in the mission home, isn't that a form of "speaking in tongues"? Many must learn a foreign language in such a relatively short time, that I believe the missionaries are truly blessed with the ability to learn these languages so quickly.

God certainly can grant the recipient of the gift of tongues a human language. However, only in the Acts 2:4 account was this the norm. In the other four incidences, the speech did not appear to be human.

Nevertheless, God certainly also grants his servants various gifts--including language apprehension. I met an American pastor in Hong Kong, who had mastered Cantonese (a Chinese dialect) within one year, and without formal training. He then went on to learn Mandarin so well that he was teaching local Hong Kong people to speak in Mandarin.

I do not think that a gifting to learn a foreign language quickly is quite the same as the gift of tongues in Acts and Corinthians. Nevertheless, it is an extremely practical blessing, that I am certain missionaries are grateful for!

[Guest Syble]

The question to ask is "IS IT EDIFYING?"

IF THE ONE SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS SAYING SOMETHING OF SPIRITUAL VALUE WHICH WOULD EDIFY, AND THAT THERE IS SOMEONE TRANSLATING THE NEEDED MESSAGE. OTHERWISE I WOULD PLACE IT IN THE TEXT AS CORRUPT COMMUNICATION.

If so, I feel vindicated. If I speak out in tongues in the congregation, and there is an interpretation, then you have said the message is "needed" or edifying. And, the Scripture verses you cited concur.

But, what if I speak in tongues during private prayer? Is that edifying? What if there is no interpretator?

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God ... He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself. 1 Corinthians 14:2a, 4a.

To summarize how it works in churches that embrace these gifts as being "for today":

1. If a member speaks out in an unknown tongue, the congregation becomes quiet. Afterwards, an interpretation in the venacular of the congregation (i.e., English for most of us) will be spoken. The message is considered to be from God, and to be a specific word for the local congregation. The word given is interpreted in light of Scripture, and may be deemed "not of God," or "of the flesh," of a contradiction is apparent.

2. A member may simply speak out in the venacular of the congregation. This is considered a prophetic word, and is received the same as an interpretation of tongues.

3. If the church is worshiping, or if an individual is involved in personal prayer, s/he may sometimes "pray in the Spirit," meaning to pray in tongues. We believe this is direct communication between our spirits and God. No interpretation is necessary, which is why we should both pray in the Spirit and with understanding.

If praying and you speak in tongues, then there is an interpretor; the Holy Spirit. If there is no understanding of what you are saying, it is of the devil.

[Aristotle]

As a teenager, I attended a meeting at my girlfriends' church. In the middle of the meeting, I beheld people getting up from their seats, standing in the aisles, writhing and moaning something unintelligible. A feeling of doom swept over me, and I got this horrific pain in my head. All I could think of was to get out. Right after I left, the darkness disappeared and my headache vanished.

In the Bible, we are taught: "By their fruit ye shall know them." I believe those people were demon-possessed, and the spirit gave me a very clear warning to flee.

- Mrs. A

[Outshined]

I'm with Snow in that I believe many of the instances of "speaking in tongues" is just excited folk speaking gibberish.

I looked up the subject in Mormon Doctrine, to see what McConkie had to say about it:

Tongues

Two of the gifts of the Spirit are speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues. (Moro. 10:15-16; D. & C. 46:24-25; 1 Cor. 12:10, 28, 30; 14.) These gifts have been manifest among the saints in every age (Omni 25; Alma 9:21; 3 Ne. 29:6; Morm. 9:7), and they are desirable and useful in the Lord's work. "Let the gift of tongues be poured out upon thy people, even cloven tongues as of fire, and the interpretation thereof," the Prophet prayed at the dedication of the Kirtland Temple. (D. & C. 109:36.)Tongues and their interpretation are classed among the signs and miracles which always attend the faithful and which stand as evidences of the divinity of the Lord's work. (Morm. 9:24; Mark 16:17; Acts 10:46; 19:6.) In their more dramatic manifestations they consist in speaking or interpreting, by the power of the Spirit, a tongue which is completely unknown to the speaker or interpreter.

Frequently these gifts are manifest where the ordinary languages of the day are concerned in that the Lord's missionaries learn to speak and interpret foreign languages with ease, thus furthering the spread of the message of the restoration. When the elders of Israel, often in a matter of weeks, gain fluency in a foreign tongue, they have been blessed with the gift of tongues.An ideal and proper use of tongues was shown forth on the day of Pentecost. By using this gift the apostles were enabled to speak in their own tongue and be understood by persons of many different tongues. (Acts 2:1-18.) Indeed, "the gift of tongues by the power of the Holy Ghost in the Church," as the Prophet said, "is for the benefit of the servants of God to preach to unbelievers, as on the day of Pentecost." (Teachings p. 195.) "Be not so curious about tongues," the Prophet also said. "Do not speak in tongues except there be an interpreter present; the ultimate design of tongues is to speak to foreigners, and if persons are very anxious to display their intelligence, let them speak to such in their own tongues [that is, in the tongues of the foreigners]." (Teachings, pp. 247-248.)

Caution should always attend the use of the gift of tongues. "It is not necessary," for instance, "for tongues to be taught to the Church particularly, for any man that has the Holy Ghost, can speak of the things of God in his own tongue as well as to speak in another; for faith comes not by signs, but by hearing the word of God." (Teachings, pp. 148-149.) "If anything is taught by the gift of tongues, it is not to be received for doctrine." (Teachings, p. 229.) "Speak not in the gift of tongues without understanding it or without interpretation. The devil can speak in tongues; the adversary will come with his work; he can tempt all classes; can speak in English or Dutch. Let no one speak in tongues unless he interpret, except by the consent of the one who is placed to preside; then he may discern or interpret, or another may." (Teachings, p. 162, 212.)Tongues and their interpretation are given for special purposes under special circumstances. There are a host of gifts that are far more important and in the use of which there is less chance for deception. The gifts of exhortation, of preaching, of expounding doctrine, of teaching the gospel — though not nearly so dramatic — are far greater and of more value than tongues. "In the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also," Paul averred, "than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." (1 Cor. 14:19.)As with other spiritual gifts, tongues "never will be done away," as long as the earth remains in its present state, "only according to the unbelief of the children of men." (Moro. 10:19.) But in the ultimate perfect day the gifts pertaining to tongues "shall cease." (1 Cor. 13:8.) Obviously in that final glorious day when the saints know all things (which includes a perfect knowledge of all languages) it will no longer be either necessary or possible to speak in tongues and give interpretation thereto.

[Seraphim Moonshadow]

There is a clear, defineable difference between the truth of the tongues and what it is not. Obviously the wailing and moaning isn't even close. The Spirit of God is here to enlighten us. Is it not for that enlightenment that tongues are loosed? It is a gift of the Spirit of God and should not be taken lightly. I know this from personal experience. The Spirit loosens our tongues, our hearts, our minds. The Spirit can literally change our whole beings--our hearts, to cleanse us and take off that natural man. The gift of tongues is to help us understand--to build the gospel, because there are certain barriers that we, as humans, have, such as language.

I'd like to quote a few things today to perhaps "clear the air." I took this from the Question and Answers section of the New Era.

“Do people still speak in tongues today?”

John E. Carr, “Q&A: Questions and Answers,” New Era, Mar. 1975, 48

Answer/Brother John E. Carr

The simple answer is yes they do.

But I am sure you want some evidences. Perhaps these are so numerous that you do not recognize them. Because of the very nature of this subject you may be inclined to look for the spectacular or something so out of the ordinary that only then would you believe you have seen evidence of the gift.

To fully understand the question, it is only right that we try to understand the purpose of what the scriptures teach is a gift. Joseph Smith, in teaching this principle, said, “Tongues were given for the purpose of preaching among those whose language is not understood.” (History of the Church 2:607.) Based on the teachings of the scriptures and the revelations of the latter days, President Joseph Fielding Smith taught that “there has been no cessation of the gift of tongues.” (Answers to Gospel Questions 2:26.) Also, “The true gift of tongues is made manifest in the Church more abundantly, perhaps, than any other spiritual gift. Every missionary who goes forth to teach the gospel in a foreign language, if he is prayerful and faithful, receives this gift.” (Answers to Gospel Questions 2:29.)

Hundreds of testimonies have been given by missionaries and some remarkable experiences are recorded in Church history evidencing this gift in the lives of such recent church leaders as President David O. McKay, (Gospel Ideals, p. 552.) Elder Alonzo A. Hinckley, (Answers to Gospel Questions 2:32–33.), and others.

As one of this dispensation’s great leaders and a devout missionary in his middle teens, President Joseph F. Smith was so blessed with this gift that he taught the Hawaiians in their own language. On one occasion he said, “So far as I am concerned, if the Lord will give me ability to teach the people in my native tongue or in their own language to the understanding of those who hear me, that will be sufficient gift of tongues to me.” (Gospel Doctrine, p. 201.)

But consider another evidence that is very prominent today. In 32 languages throughout the world the work of translating the scriptures and other publications of the Church is being carried forward. Many translators who can scarcely claim a complete knowledge of English read and study the gospel in the English language and translate their understanding into their native tongue. By persistent effort and practice they develop the gift they have received and become proficient in the work. These faithful people are inspired and motivated by the story of Oliver Cowdery; he tried to translate but was unsuccessful, so the Lord said to him, “Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

“But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore you shall feel that it is right.

“But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.” (D&C 9:7–9.)

Missionaries are being prepared in language training missions for the work of teaching the gospel in a foreign tongue, and all of this that the scriptures may be fulfilled. We read in Doctrine and Covenants 90:11 [D&C 90:11], “For it shall come to pass in that day, that every man shall hear the fulness of the gospel in his own tongue, and in his own language, through those who are ordained unto this power, by the administration of the Comforter, shed forth upon them for the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Section 1, verse 2 [D&C 1:2], also says, “For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.”

In a general epistle issued by the First Presidency of the Church on July 9, 1853, a most enlightening statement was issued on the subject we are discussing. The statement read as follows:

“Translate the Book of Mormon into every language and dialect under heaven, and print the same, as God shall give you the opportunity. And from this hour the gift of tongues, and by it translation, from language to language shall be more and more manifest unto the Elders of Israel, until no nation, kingdom, tribe, or family, shall be destitute of the offer of the word of God on the earth.”

Might we not conclude that only with this marvelous gift can the purposes of God be fulfilled? For this is the dispensation of the restoration of all things. “For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.” (D&C 112:30.)

Consider how difficult it would be to communicate the truths of the gospel throughout the world unless by the power of God this gift were also restored. Jesus made it clear that all things should be restored when he said, “Elias truly shall first come and restore all things.” (Matt. 17:11.) The gift of tongues is one of those many things that needed to be restored, and it has been as we read in the Doctrine and Covenants where the Lord enumerates many gifts including this one that gives rise to your question. (D&C 46:24.)

Now this may not be spectacular in the same sense as some other stories that are familiar to us. But a dimension to this whole matter, which is a great evidence to those of us who are close to the translation work in the Church, is that people with this gift are raised up by the Lord at places and in times of need.

Think of 3.3 million members of the Church scattered over the earth populated with approximately 3.7 billion people in 228 separately administered countries and territories speaking over 3,000 languages and dialects. How could it be possible to fulfill the purpose of the restoration of the gospel for the eternal salvation of mankind unless the Lord did strategically locate those with the gift of tongues at places where they can become instruments in his hands. So the natives in their various homelands and many who are relocated either temporarily or permanently for business or professional reasons in lands with languages different than their own find themselves deeply involved in building the kingdom of God on the earth because they are blessed with the gift of tongues.

[Guest Syble]

The gift of tongues is to help us understand--to build the gospel, because there are certain barriers that we, as humans, have, such as language.

We do have man-made limitations. The Spirit can, as you say, remove our barriers and free us to do the seemingly impossible. :)

[prisonchaplain]

If praying and you speak in tongues, then there is an interpretor; the Holy Spirit. If there is no understanding of what you are saying, it is of the devil.

First, if I may, your response is somewhat disingenuous, in that I doubt that you believe that even when there is an interpretation in a Pentecostal service, that the gifts are truly of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I understand that Mormons believe Pentecostals are counted amongst the apostate.

Second, your hasty and rather harsh conclusion is hardly supported by Scripture, or the experience of the church.

Does an interpretation always have to accompany tongues-speech.

The short answer is NO. There are two types of tongues speech. 1.

Praying in tongues. In 1 Corinthians 14:15 Paul contrasts PRAYING in

the Spirit with praying with understanding. Prayer is usually private,

and so would require no interpretation. My spirit communes with God.

However, so that my faith is built up (especially when God answers

prayer), I must also pray with understanding. 2. The gift of tongues,

or speaking publically in tongues. Here, there is a message from the

Spirit for the congregation, so an interpretation is necessary.

This first link describes in a generally the contrast between these

types of tongues-speech, from the point of view of the General Council

of the Assemblies of God, considered the largest of the classic

Pentecostal fellowships in the United States.

http://ag.org/top/beliefs/baptism_in_the_h...ivatepublic.cfm

This link describes the role of interpretation of tongues, again

from the Assemblies of God perspective.

http://ag.org/top/beliefs/baptism_in_the_h...erpretation.cfm

This last link offers a little more depth on the topic of praying in

tongues.

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/tonguespray.htm

[Guest Syble]

First, if I may, your response is somewhat disingenuous, in that I doubt that you believe that even when there is an interpretation in a Pentecostal service, that the gifts are truly of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I understand that Mormons believe Pentecostals are counted amongst the apostate.

No you may not. Every statement here is bogus to the extreme. Hmmmm.

Second, your hasty and rather harsh conclusion is hardly supported by Scripture, or the experience of the church.

You are the one being harsh. Look to yourself.

Does an interpretation always have to accompany tongues-speech.

The short answer is NO. There are two types of tongues speech. 1.

Praying in tongues. In 1 Corinthians 14:15 Paul contrasts PRAYING in

the Spirit with praying with understanding. Prayer is usually private,

and so would require no interpretation. My spirit communes with God.

However, so that my faith is built up (especially when God answers

prayer), I must also pray with understanding. 2. The gift of tongues,

or speaking publically in tongues. Here, there is a message from the

Spirit for the congregation, so an interpretation is necessary.

You make several hasty unfounded judgments upon which you proceed to take issue and build your case. Therefore, your case is void of purpose and valid substance.

Where did I state anything about my belief about penecostals? I make one statement, not harsh nor disingenuous: There is no righteous purpose in speaking tongues when no one understands what is being said. All things which cometh of God are good. Someonee speaking gibberish (which unintellible speech is) is not good and cometh not of God, but cometh of the devil.

[prisonchaplain]

As a teenager, I attended a meeting at my girlfriends' church. In the middle of the meeting, I beheld people getting up from their seats, standing in the aisles, writhing and moaning something unintelligible. A feeling of doom swept over me, and I got this horrific pain in my head. All I could think of was to get out. Right after I left, the darkness disappeared and my headache vanished.

In the Bible, we are taught: "By their fruit ye shall know them." I believe those people were demon-possessed, and the spirit gave me a very clear warning to flee.

- Mrs. A

There are two possible reasons why you felt the way you did. 1. You were right. These people were demon-possessed, and the Holy Spirit was warning you. 2. You were predisposed to be skeptical of religious practices outside your own. That mixed with fear of the unknown could easily make you frightened.

How many non-LDS people do you suppose have visited SLC, walked the Temple grounds and felt "doom sweep over them, horrific pain in their head, and the need to flee?"--particularly if they had a strong religious upbringing of their own.

Quite frankly, I had those same feelings when I visited Buddhist Temples in Korea.

So, when you say, "By their fruits ye shall know them," what are the fruits of Pentecostalism?

1. Many have actually been delivered from demons.

2. Many have been delivered from drug addiction, through programs like Teen Challenge.

3. Many have received physical healings.

4. Many have reported a dramatic power that's been added to their spiritual practice.

One incident, in particular strikes me. During an "altar service" (a time around the front, where people are praying, seeking God, being prayed for, etc.) a woman was laughing quite loudly. One of the older elders went to the pastor and began to complain about it. The pastor immediately told him to shush--and explained that this woman had been through incredible trauma in her life, and had never once laughed! The Holy Spirit had replaced her sorrow with joy!

If you did not know her story, and you were used to quiet "respectful, reverent" services, you might think Satan was at work. In fact, it was God.

[Amphiblitz]

I lived in South Korea for two years a while back and visited some of the Korean buddhist temples, too. I have also been to various other religious services over the years. Being a "glass half-full" kind of guy, I have rarely felt anything negative (demonic) anywhere I have been. I generally sense the faith and/or positive spiritual energy surrounding the fraction of truth that is present in all of these places or with those people.

Off topic: Were you just visiting Korea or did you live there for a while?

[prisonchaplain]

No you may not. Every statement here is bogus to the extreme. Hmmmm.

Okay, I'm willing to back up. Do you believe that when someone speaks in tongues and then there is an interpretation in English, during a Pentecostal service, that the Holy Spirit has just communicated (at least in most cases)? If you do, and you grant us the benefit of the doubt, I apologize. I assumed that a reasonable extension of the doctrine of the Restored Gospel, is that non-LDS churches would not likely be able to truly operate in the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

Second, your hasty and rather harsh conclusion is hardly supported by Scripture, or the experience of the church.

You are the one being harsh. Look to yourself.

Did you not say that when I pray in tongues, and there is no interpretation, that my prayers are 'of the devil?' Am I unreasonable to say your assessment is hasty and harsh? I testify to you that my 'prayers in the Spirit' are from the Holy Spirit.

Where did I state anything about my belief about penecostals?

You said that if there is tongues without interpretation, that it is of the devil. Pentecostals 'pray in the Spirit,' which by its nature (since it's private) does not include interpretation. So, am I wrong in concluding that you believe Pentecostals are praying 'of the devil?'

Furthermore, LDS doctrine is that non-LDS Christians are apostate. Am I wrong to assume that Mormons would be skeptical of apostates truly operating in the gifts of the Holy Ghost?

I make one statement, not harsh nor disingenuous: There is no righteous purpose in speaking tongues when no one understands what is being said.

Well, I do this. So, if you are saying that what I am doing has no righteous purpose, then to me you seem harsh. There is a righteous purpose in it, because this is of God. If you read any of the sources I offered, or my explanation even, you would have at least understood the difference between the public gift of tongues for the church, and the private practice of praying in tongues. You might disagree, which is fine. But, you've gone further and declared what I do to be unrighteous.

All things which cometh of God are good. Someon speaking giberish (which unintelible speach is)

I take strong exception to you labeling praying in tongues as gibberish. Gibberish is when we speak nonsense of our own effort--not of the Spirit. Tongues-speech is intelligible by the Holy Ghost.

is not good and cometh not of God, but cometh of the devil.

I would simply argue that you speak of that which you knoweth not. I would not take it upon myself to comment on Mormon Temple rituals and activities, because, despite what second-hand sources I might be able to read, I have not been there, and do not know for myself about them. Likewise, praying in the Spirit is a sacred practice for Pentecostals. To borrow and LDS phrase, the speech is not secret, but sacred. When it is public, there is an interpretation. However, when it is prayer and private, such interpretation is not necessary. My spirit is communicating directly with the Father, through the Holy Ghost.

I lived in South Korea for two years a while back and visited some of the Korean buddhist temples, too. I have also been to various other religious services over the years. Being a "glass half-full" kind of guy, I have rarely felt anything negative (demonic) anywhere I have been. I generally sense the faith and/or positive spiritual energy surrounding the fraction of truth that is present in all of these places or with those people.

Off topic: Were you just visiting Korea or did you live there for a while?

It would be too strong to say that I sensed demonic influences from the temples. It was more that it was simply not of God. My fear about Buddhism is that it could distract practioners from the simple pursuit of the one true and living God, in favor of inner peace and mental development.

I was a campus missionary in Korea for six years, working primarily in Taejon.

[Guest Syble]

Okay, I'm willing to back up. Do you believe that when someone speaks in tongues and then there is an interpretation in English, during a Pentecostal service, that the Holy Spirit has just communicated (at least in most cases)?

I believe that if it is of the Spirit of God, more than just one person will understand or at least receive a spiritual confirmation that it is of God.

If you do, and you grant us the benefit of the doubt, I apologize. I assumed that a reasonable extension of the doctrine of the Restored Gospel, is that non-LDS churches would not likely be able to truly operate in the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

It is too bad you have such a limited and negative assessment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Have you ever read the D&C 130: 20-21

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Now do you see anywhere in this set of verses which state it is only for LDS?

When someone is living according to the gospel of Christ, they can receive a gift of the Spirit. The Bible even teaches that ALL are given a gift. So how do you validate your statement to me?

Second, your hasty and rather harsh conclusion is hardly supported by Scripture, or the experience of the church.

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You are the one being harsh. Look to yourself.

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Did you not say that when I pray in tongues, and there is no interpretation, that my prayers are 'of the devil?' Am I unreasonable to say your assessment is hasty and harsh? I testify to you that my 'prayers in the Spirit' are from the Holy Spirit.

If you are praying and being attended by the Spirit you should at least know what you are saying. If you are just saying a bunch of gibberish that not even you know what you are saying, then you are being over taken by the devil. That is just a fact. Do you find facts harsh? Sorry.

Where did I state anything about my belief about penecostals?

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You said that if there is tongues without interpretation, that it is of the devil. Pentecostals 'pray in the Spirit,' which by its nature (since it's private) does not include interpretation. So, am I wrong in concluding that you believe Pentecostals are praying 'of the devil?'

Furthermore, LDS doctrine is that non-LDS Christians are apostate. Am I wrong to assume that Mormons would be skeptical of apostates truly operating in the gifts of the Holy Ghost?

If you are praying in the Spirit and still don't know what you are saying~ you are possessed by the devils spirit. The Holy Ghost is a Spirit of enlightenment, not befuddlement of meaningless gibberish.

I make one statement, not harsh nor disingenuous: There is no righteous purpose in speaking tongues when no one understands what is being said.

-----

Well, I do this. So, if you are saying that what I am doing has no righteous purpose, then to me you seem harsh. There is a righteous purpose in it, because this is of God. If you read any of the sources I offered, or my explanation even, you would have at least understood the difference between the public gift of tongues for the church, and the private practice of praying in tongues. You might disagree, which is fine. But, you've gone further and declared what I do to be unrighteous.

You are misled if you find it righteous to be speaking gibberish that the Spirit won't even allow you to understand what you are saying.

All things which cometh of God are good. Someon speaking giberish (which unintelible speach is)

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I take strong exception to you labeling praying in tongues as gibberish. Gibberish is when we speak nonsense of our own effort--not of the Spirit. Tongues-speech is intelligible by the Holy Ghost.

No gibberish is saying something that you have no idea what you are saying and it is not of God.

is not good and cometh not of God, but cometh of the devil.

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I would simply argue that you speak of that which you knoweth not. I would not take it upon myself to comment on Mormon Temple rituals and activities, because, despite what second-hand sources I might be able to read, I have not been there, and do not know for myself about them. Likewise, praying in the Spirit is a sacred practice for Pentecostals. To borrow and LDS phrase, the speech is not secret, but sacred. When it is public, there is an interpretation. However, when it is prayer and private, such interpretation is not necessary. My spirit is communicating directly with the Father, through the Holy Ghost.

You are the one speaking of that which you know not. You are comparing your not knowing about a specific event in only the LDS Church to something that is a gift of the Spirit manifest to all christians reguardless of their affiliations with any specific church. It doesn't wash. I have had the gift of tongues and many churches have had these gifts manifest. But not in just a nonsensical gibberish which no one can understand.

I guarantee you, that if you don't even know or are not given to know what you are saying through the Spirit, you are being led by the devil.

[Snow]

...If you are praying in the Spirit and still don't know what you are saying~ you are possessed by the devils spirit. The Holy Ghost is a Spirit of enlightenment, not befuddlement of meaningless gibberish.

...is not good and cometh not of God, but cometh of the devil.

...I guarantee you, that if you don't even know or are not given to know what you are saying through the Spirit, you are being led by the devil.

My bigotometer just went off.

Me thinks you gots El Diablo on the brain. Lighten up - Prison Chaplain comes across as more spiritual than you.

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

...If you are praying in the Spirit and still don't know what you are saying~ you are possessed by the devils spirit. The Holy Ghost is a Spirit of enlightenment, not befuddlement of meaningless gibberish.

...is not good and cometh not of God, but cometh of the devil.

...I guarantee you, that if you don't even know or are not given to know what you are saying through the Spirit, you are being led by the devil.

My bigotometer just went off.

Me thinks you gots El Diablo on the brain. Lighten up - Prison Chaplain comes across as more spiritual than you.

Well, I'm doubly confused. #1. Syble says that the D&C potentially counts as blessed the public operation of the gift of tongues accompanied by the gift of interpretation in non-LDS Pentecostal churches. I find that incredibly NOT BIGOTED. On the other hand, I'm wondering how this meshes with the teaching that those same non-LDS churches are apostate?

#2. Syble says that tongues-speech must ALWAYS be accompanied by interpretation--even during private prayer. Otherwise, it is demonic. First, do Mormons practice speaking in tongues, and then offering interpretations? I wasn't aware that this was a practice in the LDS Church. Second, Scripture does not back up this interpretation. The biblical injunction is to "Pray in the Spirit and with understanding," not to "Pray in the Spirit, and then with interpretation." By praying in tongues, my spirit communicates directly with God. There is no hinderance, no filtering, no subconcious motives. When I pray with understanding (in English), I know what I am asking, and my faith is built as God brings his answers. Both prayers edify the believer.

[Guest Syble]

My bigotometer just went off.

Me thinks you gots El Diablo on the brain. Lighten up - Prison Chaplain comes across as more spiritual than you.

Does this really matter?

Well, I'm doubly confused. #1. Syble says that the D&C potentially counts as blessed the public operation of the gift of tongues accompanied by the gift of interpretation in non-LDS Pentecostal churches. I find that incredibly NOT BIGOTED. On the other hand, I'm wondering how this meshes with the teaching that those same non-LDS churches are apostate?

Churches may be apostate as to authority, but ALL are given the gifts of the Spirit and hopefully understood and used with the Correct Spirit.

#2. Syble says that tongues-speech must ALWAYS be accompanied by interpretation--even during private prayer. Otherwise, it is demonic. First, do Mormons practice speaking in tongues, and then offering interpretations? I wasn't aware that this was a practice in the LDS Church. Second, Scripture does not back up this interpretation. The biblical injunction is to "Pray in the Spirit and with understanding," not to "Pray in the Spirit, and then with interpretation." By praying in tongues, my spirit communicates directly with God. There is no hinderance, no filtering, no subconcious motives. When I pray with understanding (in English), I know what I am asking, and my faith is built as God brings his answers. Both prayers edify the believer.

If you are praying in the Spirit, why would that Spirit not enlighten you as to what you are saying so as to be of some benefit?

Mormon practice speaking in tongues but not as a total central theme. Christ is our central theme and He is who we look to and praise, not men and what they can do to demonstrate their spirituality. The enlargement of the soul comes from the Spirit. Speaking gibberish, without understanding is not enlarging the Spirit.

Understanding and interpretation are the same thing. You seem to be very lost in your exclusive meanings of things.

[Traveler]

I do not post this to appear to support or not support spiritual things that happen to various peoples of religion. I am impressed with people of faith. I have sat in sweat loges. I have fasted for 40 days in the wilderness as recommended by a Native American. I have been in places of worship of many faiths. I have heard their spiritual expressions. This is my opinion.

If a person is moved by a spiritual experience to love others (especially their enemies) and to be kind, and compassionate (again especially to their enemies), then I am impress and believe they are being influenced by the very spirit of Christ – weather they are Christian or not, I believe it is of Christ. But if they glory in themselves and think they are being lifted up to G-d (or something else) but do not show an increase of love towards others (especially to their enemies) – then I am convinced it is not the spirit of Christ.

For me it is not so much what happens in a moment but the commitment over the coming days, weeks, months and years to love and compassion. I find great joy in conversing with such and value their opinions, and think to myself that I would be more like them.

The Traveler