Have we changed that much from the premortal life.

[martybess]

Have we really changed that much from our premortal state? Was I a loner in the premortal life, not really one who likes doing things with a group of ppl? Did I need down time after spending the day with others to regroup and unwind? Or are these just mortal tendencies?

Any thoughts?

This article adds insight to why we think as we do.

The Great Adventure — Worth the Risks

By Gary C. Lawrence

A few months before the death of my friend Terry Jeffers of San Antonio, Texas, I asked this valiant member of the Church how he was handling what he knew, courtesy of cancer, to be his shrinking number of days in mortality. His calm answer spoke volumes, “It’s all part of the Great Adventure.”

I capitalize those two words because that’s how he spoke them — with a reassurance of the reality of the hereafter that even bordered on anticipation, adventure being a word that swirled around this gifted spirit since I first met him during our BYU days.

This conversation came to mind again as I read about Laurence and Marianne Sunderland of Marina del Rey, California, who allowed their 16-year-old daughter Abby to attempt a solo circumnavigation of the globe, and the howl from critics when a rogue wave broke the mast of Abby’s 40-foot sailboat and left her adrift in the southern Indian Ocean a few days ago.

“What is wrong with these parents? She is 16, a child,” was a typical comment quoted in the L.A. Times.1 And some of the “legions” of incensed parents even accused the Sunderlands of child endangerment.

Laurence Sunderland defended his family’s actions: “I’ve never advocated this for 16-year-olds. I’ve advocated this for experienced sailors, [and] Abby is a fine sailor.”2

To those who don’t bother to learn of Abby’s training, her parents’ decision to let her try the adventure might look unwise. After all, what kind of parents would send out a child to sail storm-churned oceans alone?

I submit that their decision differs only in scope from what our Heavenly Parents did.

We are told that when Heavenly Father announced His plan for our progress by giving us the experience of a mortal existence,

“…the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.”3

While many cheered, did the plan have its critics? Only a third of the hosts of heaven’s worth. I can imagine their whiny arguments, more than one in parallel to the arguments the Sunderlands are hearing:

* How can you send your children on a journey from which they may not return? It’s unfair.

* How can you be so heartless to cut off your children from the only world they’ve ever known, and extinguish their memory of it as well?

* Why take the risk? It’s not worth it. You should guarantee a satisfactory outcome.

Sound familiar? That’s because the two schools of thought in our pre-mortal existence are still with us.

On the one hand are those who want a cocoon society where everyone is entitled to the security of food, housing and medical care — even if paid with the sweat of other people’s brows. These are the wimpy souls who want rewards without effort, success without risk, and accolades conferred by fiat instead of deeds. And who criticize those who encourage their children to dream and to dare and to do.

These timid cowards rarely risk deeds that lead to greatness, but are only too happy to control the lives of others in worship of equality of outcomes — the great levelers who make sure no one fails. And if that means commensurately that no one excels, so be it.

If this had been God’s intent, there was an offer on the table He could have accepted.

Then there are those who work with life’s risks instead of against them. These are they:

* who willingly, even excitedly (they shouted for joy), accept risks;

* who measure the odds and then leave hearth and home to create, compete, and conquer;

* who with their deeds strengthen personal character and advance society;

* who are confident in the skill sets they learned from their Parents or parents;

* who venture onto life’s oceans with only prayer, or a satellite phone, to keep the connection.

These are they who, directly or intuitively, know that our Heavenly Father sent us to fulfill specific missions and to gather experiences that would stand us in good stead throughout eternity — real-life knowledge that can only be achieved by exercising agency with its attendant risks, not surrendering it to the siren-song statists who would destroy it.

Congratulations to you, Mr. and Mrs. Sunderland, and special kudos to your daughter Abby. You and others like you are the reasons civilization progresses, even though many of your critics fancy themselves the adjective-turned-noun form of that verb.

And a tip of the hat in memory of Terry Jeffers who lived and loved the Great Adventure on the oceans of life, risky as it is.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I like this topic. My quick answer is, absolutely changed! If we have a veil placed to forget all that we learned and all of our previous experience than by definition we have changed dramatically. Unless, one believes that experience doesn't change a persons personality or behaviors. If one thinks that we are essentially the same in traits and mannerisms etc. than I think one would have to also discount the value of spending ages and ages in Gods presence developing as much as we could to a point where we should be put in a testing experience.

If the value of that pre-mortal development was small than the difference between forgetting all of that versus remembering all of those experiences and knowledge would be small, then one would say that we are essentially the same.

But, if one believes that there was much learned in God's presence over the ages in the pre-mortal existence than we have changed greatly from that existence to this.

The story of the 10 talents suggests we are given a set of talents to see what we will do with them. "Given" meaning we didn't have that set before and they potentially could be taken away.

For me, 99% of what we call "personality" and behavioral mannerisms are a function of this existence and of this body. Look at what Alzheimers or any number of neurodegenerative diseases do to "personality" if one thinks "personality" reflects the spiritual make up of that individual as Alzheimers doesn't destroy spiritual "wiring." The spirit remains intact and yet the "personality" changes in those individuals, showing us exactly how much personality as we see it in this life comes from spirit versus body. ... or at least how much the body covers our natural spiritual personality, either way the personality we express in this life mostly comes from the body, the corrupted, not perfect body.

[Traveler]

Let me put it this way – the universe is about 14 billion years old so I figure we live in the pre-existence developing our personalities for about 14 billion years. If 1000 years is a foot we can say that you were in the pre-existence about the same as the distance from New York to LA. The normal life span on earth is a little over an inch.

Now if you were driving from New York to LA what do you think could happen in the normal course of things for the last inch that would make much of a difference? Even if you earth life was cut short – by how much?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Let me put it this way – the universe is about 14 billion years old so I figure we live in the pre-existence developing our personalities for about 14 billion years. If 1000 years is a foot we can say that you were in the pre-existence about the same as the distance from New York to LA. The normal life span on earth is a little over an inch.

Now if you were driving from New York to LA what do you think could happen in the normal course of things for the last inch that would make much of a difference? Even if you earth life was cut short – by how much?

The Traveler

Spoken like a Traveler , .... because the last inch is a gate, and not an open road like the rest of the journey.

[martybess]

I haven't spent that much time reflecting on this subject but I can tell you folks have. Wow, great stuff!

[Seminarysnoozer]

I haven't spent that much time reflecting on this subject but I can tell you folks have. Wow, great stuff!

I think this is an important topic that is often passed over in typical "Sunday school" discussions. If one has a strong testimony of how "fallen" we are then it is much easier to be thankful for any blessing we have even in terms of talents and abilities. It also helps reduce any pride when one realizes how low we really are in this existence from our previous amount of knowledge and ability. It is helpful when having to endure the hardships of this life, knowing that my 13 year old won't always be smarter than me in math, haha (maybe), or at least know that these limitations we experience will be lifted in the next life.

[Sali]

For me, 99% of what we call "personality" and behavioral mannerisms are a function of this existence and of this body. Look at what Alzheimers or any number of neurodegenerative diseases do to "personality" if one thinks "personality" reflects the spiritual make up of that individual as Alzheimers doesn't destroy spiritual "wiring." The spirit remains intact and yet the "personality" changes in those individuals, showing us exactly how much personality as we see it in this life comes from spirit versus body. ... or at least how much the body covers our natural spiritual personality, either way the personality we express in this life mostly comes from the body, the corrupted, not perfect body.

My personal belief is that we are born with an innate character that is hardwired into us, but our personality is shaped not only by our character but by our experiences in our mortal life.

[Seminarysnoozer]

My personal belief is that we are born with an innate character that is hardwired into us, but our personality is shaped not only by our character but by our experiences in our mortal life.

Can you share what features of your personality are expressed in this life that come from your spirit alone and not from your physical (newly acquired) wiring or experience.

Spirituality? sure ... whether a person is "valiant" or not? sure (kind of like spirituality) ... any others?

Certainly not, intelligence or whether a person is shy or bold, whether they like ice cream or tacos, whether they like sports or opera, etc.

[martybess]

Can you share what features of your personality are expressed in this life that come from your spirit alone and not from your physical (newly acquired) wiring or experience.

Spirituality? sure ... whether a person is "valiant" or not? sure (kind of like spirituality) ... any others?

Certainly not, intelligence or whether a person is shy or bold, whether they like ice cream or tacos, whether they like sports or opera, etc.

Are thinking one comes into life stubborn just because of their body? The moment I looked into my second son eyes 27 years ago I said to myself "were going to have troubles with this one" lol. Kind of scary. It was obvious in his demeanor. The strong and bold came with his body only?

[bytor2112]

I would say yes...we are quite different. We are without question a product of our environment.....i.e.....was Paris Hilton fabulously wealthy and a floozy in the pre-existence...probably not. Does starving much of your childhood in Africa affect who you become as an adult? So, I do think our natures are changed by our surroundings and ultimately by our choices.

I hope I was much different....much better than I am now.

[Hemidakota]

I submit that their decision differs only in scope from what our Heavenly Parents did.

We are told that when Heavenly Father announced His plan for our progress by giving us the experience of a mortal existence,

“…the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.”3

While many cheered, did the plan have its critics? Only a third of the hosts of heaven’s worth. I can imagine their whiny arguments, more than one in parallel to the arguments the Sunderlands are hearing:

.

[My opinion here] The Morning Stars, who shouted for joy was not as big as those who were critics of the plan. What was left from the third that was removed from FATHER's sight, were saved from the depths of hell and loneliness being without our divine parents.

Did we change from our pre-mortal realm? Being positive here, I would say yes. Hopefully, we made an improved change to our eternal lives to mirror our divine parents. Yet, to have a reality check, the only way to find out is to seek your own answer from GOD. The veil is only thick enough, as you make it.

Already, some one already touched upon the ‘Parable of the Talents’ but let me touch on another venue, not only increasing our talents in mortality, but using them to help others and walking the narrow path that leads to the Tree of Life (see 1st Nephi). ‘Walk with Me’, Sister Elaine L. Jack used the analogy of the Tree of Life with our own forging the narrow path in mortality. Here is a partial to the Ensign article (see link below for full article):

Remember, our eternal progression is the very essence of our earthly existence. It is the Lord’s plan to get us all the way home to our Father in Heaven. This I know: Each of us can get there from here.

President Spencer W. Kimball promised, “It may seem a little difficult at first, but when a person begins to catch a vision of the true work, when he begins to see something of eternity in its true perspective, the blessings begin to far outweigh the cost of leaving ‘the world’ behind” (Ensign, June 1976, p. 6).

Some of our steps come in learning that the path is indeed straight and narrow. The concept of a straight path intrigues me. So often we go around in a circle, spinning our spiritual wheels while only our temporal treads hit the road. That seems out of step and out of balance with the way the Lord intended. We have knowledge and spiritual power; such momentum far exceeds anything the world has to offer. Putting off to tomorrow is to fall behind, step backward, and open the door to the subtle influences of Satan. “There is no such thing as standing still in the eternal work of our God” (George Q. Cannon, Millennial Star, 23 Feb. 1899, p. 117).

Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said, “There are no separate paths back to that heavenly home. Just one straight and narrow way, at the end of which, though we arrive trailing tears, we shall at once be ‘drenched in joy’ ” (Ensign, May 1978, p. 11).

Indeed, the path is not soft, green grass; it is not without hardship and heartache. It is often an uphill climb strewn with rocks, many of them in the shape of mighty boulders. We can’t predict what our challenges will be because our lives are all different. Though the path is narrow, our moves are not scripted. There are diversions which attempt to lure us from the straight and narrow. It is our covenants that are the road signs to eternal life. Just as it is more difficult to read the signs on the main road from a side street, so too it is more difficult to hear the still, small voice of warnings, rough road ahead, when we have distanced ourselves from our covenants.

When the Lord says “walk with me” (Moses 6:34), He is asking us to become more spiritual by being obedient to His word. Developing spirituality is critical to our eternal progress. LDS.org - Ensign Article - Walk with Me

[Seminarysnoozer]

Are thinking one comes into life stubborn just because of their body? The moment I looked into my second son eyes 27 years ago I said to myself "were going to have troubles with this one" lol. Kind of scary. It was obvious in his demeanor. The strong and bold came with his body only?

Lol, I know that feeling, each one of my 4 children has a completely different personality. I think the question to ask yourself is if you think that trait is part of that person's test in life. If the answer is "yes" than you've already answered that question of where that comes from.

This doesn't answer why some of us have some traits and others have a different set as everyone's "test" is different. I believe there are some that are similar to their pre-earthly life but how would we know that. There is no need to test the same things we've dealt with for ages and ages. I think the things that we are being tested over relates to our ability to use spiritually means to overcome the physical restraints. If there were no physical restraints to who we really are then there would be nothing to overcome. What kind of a test would that be? So, in that light, the harder the test, likely the more different we are here from how we were there.

... The other benefit in knowing this too is realizing how God is not a respecter of persons and how we are not supposed to judge people. We have no idea how they really are and what set of traits they were given here to start with... we don't all start out at the same mark or are given the same test. That is why it is hard for us to judge or really know how far a person has come from their starting point in this life. This is why the low will be made high and the servant will be the master etc.

[Hemidakota]

Good evening Seminarysnoozer. Excellent thought.

As you stated, GOD is definitely not a respecter any person. I have witnessed this among children in the church. As President David O. McKay stated back in the 1950s, “…this is a royal generation…”

In our own haste to pre-judge others members, what we suspect is a servant (no one of great importance) maybe our master in the worlds to come, or, may have influence in this mortality in whether we live or die by the hands of those assigned, which is ultimately, the will of the Master. We should never assume that a person who has no 'viable leadership calling' is any lesser than one of the brethren (sisters) before GOD. We simply do not know there previous pre-mortal status and why they are here.

I think it was in the discourse of King Follett funeral sermon where Joseph discussed that we were with GOD in the beginning. What that entails for us in gaining further knowledge, prior to our spiritual creation, our progression paths were the same but aided by another – as weaker intelligence, we can be aided in reaching that level with GOD. Joseph stated this same thought;

“The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.”

Each of us carried forth into this life, our spiritual personality. What can change if allowed from our former purity state, be molded by parental nurturing, cultural cultivation, academic learning, our tasking among the mortal beings (serving in a ministering angel capacity), and given in to those divine provided character weaknesses. We are not alone in this life as I talked about before. Neither do I believe, Christ was alone to learn for Himself in this same mortality. It is matter of our desires before GOD are made manifested and our attunement to the Spirit, we can change the wrong and improve our character (ego) in becoming like the Master. As Joseph stated;

“All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.”

What is our goal for this mortality, enlargement. However, as you stated, let us not be consumed by judging others (adding further here) by their status in life, mortal blisses, scholarly or academic attainment, or position within the church. Our focus is to seek the face of GOD and to aid others to reach to HIS level that may also inherit the kingdom for eternality.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon

[Traveler]

It is my understanding that by and because of our agency we manifist that which was from the beginning.

The Traveler

[Mute]

Though I don't personally know if there was ever a preexistence, I do know that the situations we have been through in our life can drastically change our personality and the way we act, think and feel. I know I was much different when I was younger. I honestly preferred how I was when I was younger but I don't dislike how I am now either. I've changed several times in my life. I've noticed several large changes through out the years. It feels as though you're always molding into something new for better or worse. That's just my two cents on the subject.

[martybess]

Ok what about the mighty and great spirits as it says in the scriptures? Moses was one for example and he was a great prophet on earth too. (Mighty there and here). Why? Did he know he was a prophet when he left all that was his in Egypt to become a sheep herder? What drove him to greatness? His spirit was great, it came with him along with those traits. What traits came with him? I wonder if there wasn't boldness, kindness, understanding, compassion, a positive outlook or what ever??? If we were valiant and mighty and all some of that had to come with us otherwise I just cant see the point of trying to better ourselves in pre-earth life.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Ok what about the mighty and great spirits as it says in the scriptures? Moses was one for example and he was a great prophet on earth too. (Mighty there and here). Why? Did he know he was a prophet when he left all that was his in Egypt to become a sheep herder? What drove him to greatness? His spirit was great, it came with him along with those traits. What traits came with him? I wonder if there wasn't boldness, kindness, understanding, compassion, a positive outlook or what ever??? If we were valiant and mighty and all some of that had to come with us otherwise I just cant see the point of trying to better ourselves in pre-earth life.

He also had a problem with speaking, I believe that was a "given" trait and challenge for this life, for him. I doubt that he has trouble speaking to groups now. I think the more we let our spirit take control of our situation the more similar we are to our spiritual pre-existence self but this is not easy. Even the apostles fell asleep during the most important event on earth.

[martybess]

He also had a problem with speaking, I believe that was a "given" trait and challenge for this life, for him. I doubt that he has trouble speaking to groups now. I think the more we let our spirit take control of our situation the more similar we are to our spiritual pre-existence self but this is not easy. Even the apostles fell asleep during the most important event on earth.

Yes he did have a problem speaking and that was probably for a reason I don't know??? But what was it about him that drove from Egypt, was it something that came with him that one could detect in his traits? That's the question? I know we've changed due to our surrounds and mortality itself but our traits, who we really are under the layer of life's scars and joys that is who we really are, that's the talents we worked to gain before mortality and carry with us that I'm talking about. Change we do but I don't know I'm trying to get a grasp on the whole matter. Why come to earth, what are we to gain from it? More traits or talents? To define in greater depth who we are? To lift us do godhood or lesser? It's defining us day be day and we will carry that with us just as what we gained before life is with us now. We just need to tap into it. Be aware of it, think about it, have faith when we are inclined to do something we believe is who we are as did Moses, as did all the greats. Are we a great? Were we all equal, no. Why?, we define us, we gain traits, we loose traits otherwise we would all be clones.

Elder McConkie,

Environment - "When the spirit offspring of God pass from pre-existence to mortality, they bring with them the talents, capacities, and abilities acquired during a long existence and experience in their first estate. At the time of mortal birth all children are innocent and pure. Then as they begin to become accountable, they are swayed by "the tradition of their fathers." (D. & C. 93:38-39.)

Heredity - In his eternal providences and omniscient wisdom, an Almighty Deity has ordained laws whereby the characteristics and qualities of parents are transmitted to their descendants. From a mortal viewpoint this is called heredity. From an eternal perspective it is the Lord's way of sending through particular lineages the very spirits who have developed the mental, spiritual, and other qualifications entitling them so to be born. The complexities and intricacies of the laws prevailing in this field are beyond finite capacity to comprehend.

Edited June 24, 2010 by martybess

[martybess]

It is my understanding that by and because of our agency we manifist that which was from the beginning.

The Traveler

What was from the beginning? Are you talking about light and intelligence?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yes he did have a problem speaking and that was probably for a reason I don't know??? But what was it about him that drove from Egypt, was it something that came with him that one could detect in his traits? That's the question? I know we've changed due to our surrounds and mortality itself but our traits, who we really are under the layer of life's scars and joys that is who we really are, that's the talents we worked to gain before mortality and carry with us that I'm talking about. Change we do but I don't know I'm trying to get a grasp on the whole matter. Why come to earth, what are we to gain from it? More traits or talents? To define in greater depth who we are? To lift us do godhood or lesser? It's defining us day be day and we will carry that with us just as what we gained before life is with us now. We just need to tap into it. Be aware of it, think about it, have faith when we are inclined to do something we believe is who we are as did Moses, as did all the greats. Are we a great? Were we all equal, no. Why?, we define us, we gain traits, we loose traits otherwise we would all be clones.

Elder McConkie,

Environment - "When the spirit offspring of God pass from pre-existence to mortality, they bring with them the talents, capacities, and abilities acquired during a long existence and experience in their first estate. At the time of mortal birth all children are innocent and pure. Then as they begin to become accountable, they are swayed by "the tradition of their fathers." (D. & C. 93:38-39.)

Heredity - In his eternal providences and omniscient wisdom, an Almighty Deity has ordained laws whereby the characteristics and qualities of parents are transmitted to their descendants. From a mortal viewpoint this is called heredity. From an eternal perspective it is the Lord's way of sending through particular lineages the very spirits who have developed the mental, spiritual, and other qualifications entitling them so to be born. The complexities and intricacies of the laws prevailing in this field are beyond finite capacity to comprehend.

Like Elder McConkie said, I also believe we carry with us talents and capacities and that is why I said 99% of our personality is from our body, not 100%. I don't think we carry all of our talents and abilities of course. If I valiantly fought for God's plan in the war in heaven, I still had to relearn a love for that plan again here.

I think as we become more in tune with spiritual influence then we are more like our real self, our spiritual self but that is part of the purpose of this life, to figure that out. There would be no way to answer that about any one person from an external view. I think it takes a life time for us to remember who we really are. I think that is the gospel, to come to an understanding of who we really are and to listen to that side of our being more than the carnal influences. But I think the default, if we made no effort to understand our spiritual being, is to be mostly influenced by carnal tendencies, thus a 99% carnal being, or a natural man/woman. I think there are many people that remain in that carnal state their whole lives and the light stays dim. And then there are people who have a light veil, who quickly figure out who they really are and their spiritual purpose in life. I think I have gotten myself to maybe 98% carnal and 2% spiritual and hope to make that more on the spiritual side before I pass from this world.

The specific trait that we are to develop is to be more Christ-like, which is to say to overcome this world. It is to ignore the carnal influences and to pay attention to the spiritual. That specific trait can only be developed in this setting. That is why we had to be put under the veil and have the opportunity to test that and to work on that trait if we don't already have it. Whether a person is a great basketball player or they can sing opera is not the kind of talents and abilities we are talking about except in the sense of their ability to put off carnal desires to focus enough to develop any given talent. If one learns how to put off the carnal self in the process of developing any given talent than there is something gained by that. And this is why we seek after anything praiseworthy or of good report because it is not the specific talent we are after but the ability to learn spiritually as opposed to carnal learning. .... in my opinion.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I think the more we let our spirit take control of our situation the more similar we are to our spiritual pre-existence self but this is not easy. Even the apostles fell asleep during the most important event on earth.

Any of us would have fallen asleep during Jesus' experience in Gethsemane. It would have been spiritually and physically exhausting to be around that atmosphere. It would have affected anyone who was around our LORD during His sufferings.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Any of us would have fallen asleep during Jesus' experience in Gethsemane. It would have been spiritually and physically exhausting to be around that atmosphere. It would have affected anyone who was around our LORD during His sufferings.

I don't know how you could define spiritual exhaustion while a person is in a mortal state. There is mental fatigue, you know like how a person feels after attending a funeral, exhausted without physical exertion. But that is due to using up neurotransmitters that we don't have an endless supply of and so a person feels mentally fatigued but really that is a physical thing. So, how would you define spiritual exhaustion? I don't think there is such a thing.

[Hemidakota]

He also had a problem with speaking, I believe that was a "given" trait and challenge for this life, for him. I doubt that he has trouble speaking to groups now. I think the more we let our spirit take control of our situation the more similar we are to our spiritual pre-existence self but this is not easy. Even the apostles fell asleep during the most important event on earth.

So was Enoch. Looking at the current prophet of our times, Joseph Smith was uneducated and a farmer. I believe, each of them had weaknesses that may require divine help to accomplish their assignments.

[Hemidakota]

I don't know how you could define spiritual exhaustion while a person is in a mortal state. There is mental fatigue, you know like how a person feels after attending a funeral, exhausted without physical exertion. But that is due to using up neurotransmitters that we don't have an endless supply of and so a person feels mentally fatigued but really that is a physical thing. So, how would you define spiritual exhaustion? I don't think there is such a thing.

Concur...I noticed this when I was asked to teach the youth in Sunday School, merger of two or three classes of teens. I asked the Lord in fervent prayers, He would allow me to speak by the Spirit to the youth. I change the given topic to 'The Atonement.' Usually, I would receive one or two confirmations by the Holy Ghost when He makes His presence known. But in this case, it lasted for 45-minutes (off and on). Afterward, I had to leave for my bed, being physically exhaustive. To gain back my physical strength, I slept for four hours. What ever child(ren) in the audience required this lesson, I only pray that it was well received.

We have our moments that our mortal bodies can only handle so much spiritual manifestation by the Holy Ghost before loosing our physical strengths.