Authority of LDS Women

[Roseslipper]

im happy and glad to be a female.

[Snow]

Hell's Bells!

Whoever posted this original question is purposely opening a can of worms.

Women and men are not the same. We have different jobs. Who cares? Feminists. They think that unless we have the exact same responsiblities and jobs as men, that we are downtrodden. And they think that women should act like men in the home - wear the pants in the family, boss and nag the crap out of their husband, emasculate other men. It's so misguided. I have been LDS my entire life and didn't realize until a few years ago how feminist LDS women are. Too feminist. They want their husband to act like a woman at home, cook, clean, change diapers, have long talks, bring them roses. I'll take my stinky, burping, aggressive, bossy, gun-toting, money-earning, messy husband over any of the emasculated girly-men.

Who wants to be a man? Not me. I love being a feminine woman. I love being a mom and a primary teacher and in YW and RS. I like wearing dresses and makeup and curling my hair. I like not having a job and hauling my kids off to daycare or having my husband be a stay at home dad. I like knowing that truth about gender and marriage is not relative and up to our own whims, but determined by God, and that he made me so that I would be better at a woman and my husband better at being a man. I don't want my husband to vacuum and whine with me about our periods and do his nails with me.

Also, go to the temple and watch the movie in the endowment session. If you really believe the LDS church, you will know how much God loves his son and daughters equally. He sent his son to die for us all.

It's easy to define something - feminist for example - as a combination of icky, yucky, skuzzy traits and then say that your are grateful you are not one of them. Of course, it you defined it under fair and accurate terms, it would be a completely different story.

My mother, wife, sisters, me, my son, my bishop, my stake president, all recent US Presidents and all good people I know, are feminists - "a person who advocates equal rights for women" (Collins English Dictionary)

[Guest]

It's easy to define something - feminist for example - as a combination of icky, yucky, skuzzy traits and then say that your are grateful you are not one of them. Of course, it you defined it under fair and accurate terms, it would be a completely different story.

My mother, wife, sisters, me, my son, my bishop, my stake president, all recent US Presidents and all good people I know, are feminists - "a person who advocates equal rights for women" (Collins English Dictionary)

I completely agree with you Snow.

Unfortunately, some people have a different understanding of "equal rights" than others.

And like most things, a small group of people give the name an icky connotation because of their skewed idea of equal rights and the media assign them the label which makes it a media buzz word.

So, for example, you can't say the word Negro anymore without it being dumped in the same class as the n-word. Just like you can't say Oriental anymore without it being poo-poo'd. And you can't say Feminist anymore without it being attached to those women who refuse to let a man open the door for them. It's even gotten to the point now that you can't say Muslim anymore without thinking "terrorists".

Is it any wonder that most people use the word Feminist in that icky, yucky, skuzzy way?

[crazypotato]

No. Feminists from the olden days wanted equal rights. Feminists today are different. Your Collins dictionary definition is the old definition.

Feminists today are more than about equal pay and equal rights. I am in a small group of people that understands who modern day feminists are. Modern day feminists push for women to have careers and leave their kids at day care. They push for self-fulfillment first before "slaving" for your family. Modern day feminists men bash. Modern day feminists think that women are smarter and better than men at running things.

[pam]

Hell's Bells!

Whoever posted this original question is purposely opening a can of worms.

Women and men are not the same. We have different jobs. Who cares? Feminists. They think that unless we have the exact same responsiblities and jobs as men, that we are downtrodden. And they think that women should act like men in the home - wear the pants in the family, boss and nag the crap out of their husband, emasculate other men. It's so misguided. I have been LDS my entire life and didn't realize until a few years ago how feminist LDS women are. Too feminist. They want their husband to act like a woman at home, cook, clean, change diapers, have long talks, bring them roses. I'll take my stinky, burping, aggressive, bossy, gun-toting, money-earning, messy husband over any of the emasculated girly-men.

Who wants to be a man? Not me. I love being a feminine woman. I love being a mom and a primary teacher and in YW and RS. I like wearing dresses and makeup and curling my hair. I like not having a job and hauling my kids off to daycare or having my husband be a stay at home dad. I like knowing that truth about gender and marriage is not relative and up to our own whims, but determined by God, and that he made me so that I would be better at a woman and my husband better at being a man. I don't want my husband to vacuum and whine with me about our periods and do his nails with me.

Also, go to the temple and watch the movie in the endowment session. If you really believe the LDS church, you will know how much God loves his son and daughters equally. He sent his son to die for us all.

Before you judge the intention of the OP, you should realize that he is NOT LDS and is simply asking a question.

[NeuroTypical]

Humorist Dave Barry has a notion about gender equality that I think holds more water than folks on both sides of the issue might wish.

He suggests we take the total number of top-echelon positions of power and authority, and divide that number by the total population of men. (In this case, GA and above vs. population of LDS men. In doing so, we learn than any single man has the same chance of obtaining one of those few positions as a woman does. Statistically zero.

Or, in terms Snow can relate to - no matter how right he is, he ain't ever gonna be prophet. He'll be lucky if he can make it to High Priest before someone runs him over with their Soccer Mom SubUrban assault Vehicle.

LM

Edited June 29, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[pam]

Or, in terms Snow can relate to - no matter how right he is, he ain't ever gonna be prophet. He'll be lucky if he can make it to High Priest before someone runs him over with their Soccer Mom SubUrban assault Vehicle.

[Saguaro]

They want their husband to act like a woman at home, cook, clean, change diapers, have long talks, bring them roses.

Um, I'm a man and I do all those things (except the flowers) so does that make me a woman? Am I acting like woman when I clean the bathroom? Am I acting like a woman when I bathe and dress my children? (we're past diapers thankfully, but I changed my fair share). My wife would strongly disagree, she thinks very highly of me when I help around the house. You didn't mention laundry, I do most of the laundry in my house, does that make me a woman too?

The proclamation to the family defines divine rolls for men and women, but it also says they are "equal partners", it doesn't say a man can't be nurturing or a woman can't make a buck or two. It amazes me how many women (and men of course) in the LDS church try their hardest to keep sexism alive.

I was in a welfare meeting this past Sunday and the ward mission leader said he visited a man in the ward who is less active, lives alone, recently widowed, and of poor health. The man's kitchen floor was very dirty and in need of cleaning but he couldn't do it himself due to his health. So in the meeting the mission leader turns to the RS president and asks if some ladies could go over and clean the man's floor. The RS president asked if the man had home teachers, the HPGL confirmed that he does and they visit regularly. The RS president was a little confused because with no woman in the home she really doesn't have any direct strewardship, so the mission leader suggest maybe some young women could go clean the floor. So I spoke up and said why can't the home teachers do it? If they don't know how to mop a floor then something's not right. The bishop thought about it a second then agreed and told the HPGL to inform the home teachers, I told the HPGL that if the home teachers needed any help I'd be happy to volunteer. It just drove me crazy that because man needed his floor cleaned the knee jerk reaction was to send a woman to do the job.

[pam]

No. Feminists from the olden days wanted equal rights. Feminists today are different. Your Collins dictionary definition is the old definition.

Feminists today are more than about equal pay and equal rights. I am in a small group of people that understands who modern day feminists are. Modern day feminists push for women to have careers and leave their kids at day care. They push for self-fulfillment first before "slaving" for your family. Modern day feminists men bash. Modern day feminists think that women are smarter and better than men at running things.

I totally disagree with this after googling modern day feminist and seeing comments by many women that do not support this idea of bashing men, being smart and better than men at running things.

But what do I know? Since there are such a small group of women who understand what a modern day feminist is. To quote you.

One of the best articles I found that explain what it means to be a modern day feminist is this:

What is a Modern Day Feminist? - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

May I quote some of the comments:

Another misconception that many people have about feminism or feminists as a group is that they are all man-haters.

What does the modern day feminist look like? Well, look around you, she could be the soccer mom taking her children to their game, she could be the CEO on a power lunch with other executives, she could be your children's Sunday school teacher, or even the woman next to you in line at the grocery store. Modern feminism is more about a set of ideals than someone's appearance.

The final misconception that I have faced that really annoyed me is that a woman could not possibly be a feminist and supportive of traditional gender roles

The ideals of feminism are not based on who cooks the supper or cleans the kitchen, but rather on the fact that it is not automatically assumed to be a woman's role to do these things.

I am in a small group of people that understands who modern day feminists are.

How is it determined who would fall in this group? How is it determined that YOUR definition of the term is the correct one? Because you say so?

[Just_A_Guy]

So in the meeting the mission leader turns to the RS president and asks if some ladies could go over and clean the man's floor. The RS president asked if the man had home teachers, the HPGL confirmed that he does and they visit regularly. The RS president was a little confused because with no woman in the home she really doesn't have any direct strewardship, . . .

That RS President sounds awesome!!!

And the fact that an RS President can (politely) tell a male Church leader to go pound sand when he tries to pull something like that, itself says a little something about gender/power dynamics in the church.

[crazypotato]

Just read this. It is what I am trying to say.

Have you turned your man into a hermaphrodite? - Telegraph

I don't care what feminists on a website say. Do you seriously think that they are going to say, "Hey! Let's men-bash! We are a bunch of men-haters! The misconceptions that you quote there are words, not actions. I am talking about how feminist our society has become, including Utah.

I grew up a Mormon in Utah. I grew up hearing women all over the church claiming they wore the pants in their home. I see women all the time put their husbands down and then say it is not men bashing, just venting. I have heard professional counselors label men as emotionally abusive and women as victims ad nauseum. I have seen several counselors ruin people's marriages and lives by completely taking the woman's side and labeling men as abusive for simply thinking differently and being masculine.

It is pervasive in our society to believe that women are strong and capable and men are marginalized. Mainly this happens in the media, in TV commercials and TV shows. For example, "The Simpsons" and shows of that type seem funny and harmless, but the message is that men are stupid and babyish, and women are capable. Please, do not tell me that all shows don't say this same message. I know that. A huge amount of them do. My friends and female associates and pretty much most of the women in the world that I know think that male and female roles need to be blurred, that men need to do housework, cooking, and cleaning, and if they don't, they are jerks. Women think that equality in the home means that they can power struggle with their husband and ultimately, if they are not happy, then their husband must be the problem. Women wear more masculine clothes in general than they used to. In college, at BYU, I frequently felt fearful of being labeled as someone who was looking for a husband so that I could stay home and pop out babies all day. That was highly frowned on. I was told that if I was 21 and didn't go on a mission, I wasn't a good Mormon. I have had LDS women far and wide tell me that once I am a stay at home mom, I will go crazy because i won't be using my brain and to try and get a part time job so that I don't go crazy. These same women wonder why their husbands aren't more ambitious about making more money or getting a better job. Women whine all the time about their husbands not helping with housechores, even if they are SAHMs. I hear all the time, "I would never let my husband. . ." or passing remarks about their husbands having to ask their permission to buy something. This is all normal, but very feminist.

Think about what I am saying. I am not attacking any individuals on this board, so why are you all jumping on me? Because you disagree and are going with how society is now doesn't make you correct. The small group of women that I refer to is not an actual group, but a small portion of women in society, LDS, or not, that believe that our society is too feminist and that men are emasculated frequently, and we believe that men are the leaders in the home. For example, women who agree with Dr Laura, or women who agree with "Fascinating Womanhood." Just mention Dr. Laura or Fascinating Womanhood in general society and I frequently am attacked verbally for being a doormat or hear people bash Dr Laura for being a jerk.

[crazypotato]

"Um, I'm a man and I do all those things (except the flowers) so does that make me a woman? Am I acting like woman when I clean the bathroom? Am I acting like a woman when I bathe and dress my children? (we're past diapers thankfully, but I changed my fair share). My wife would strongly disagree, she thinks very highly of me when I help around the house. You didn't mention laundry, I do most of the laundry in my house, does that make me a woman too?"

You are doing traditionally women's roles. I am sure your wife appreciates you. I never said you were a woman. Those are feminine, nurturing roles. It is just a fact. It is very kind of you to help around the house. Why do you feel like I am attacking you?

"The proclamation to the family defines divine rolls for men and women, but it also says they are "equal partners", it doesn't say a man can't be nurturing or a woman can't make a buck or two. It amazes me how many women (and men of course) in the LDS church try their hardest to keep sexism alive."

Yes, the proclamation clearly states the primary roles of each gender. Men are primarily to provide and protect. Women are primarily to nurture children. Primarily does not mean exclusively. The proclamation is sexist. It defines genders as different and with different roles. Because men and women may help each other with their roles, that is fine, but equality doesn't mean both of you get a job, both of you clean the house, and both of you do everything. Feminists think that either person could do either or both job. The proclamation specifically states where most of your focus should go to - your role.

[crazypotato]

"That RS President sounds awesome!!!

And the fact that an RS President can (politely) tell a male Church leader to go pound sand when he tries to pull something like that, itself says a little something about gender/power dynamics in the church. "

Please be careful to not bash male leaders of the church for suggesting women clean a floor in a house. See how when a man was suggested to do the job, the leader was okay with it. It almost seems, I could be wrong, that you are jumping to the old conclusion that men are so mean to women and good for her for standing up for herself. I don't see that anything mean was done here.

[MarginOfError]

For what it's worth, I'm a feminist. I stand by the Church's policy that women do not hold priesthood office at this time, and will continue to do so until anything changes. But I also am adamant that women need a stronger voice in the Church's council. I can't even begin to describe how much more effective bishopric meeting would be in my ward if we would do something as simple as ask the relief society president to attend regularly.

[Just_A_Guy]

Please be careful to not bash male leaders of the church for suggesting women clean a floor in a house.

a) It wasn't her house.

b) I am, to be blunt, not prepared to extend the same "church leader" deference I give to apostles and bishops, to ward mission leaders who are trying to get out of work.

c) This particular WML was in the house--fifteen minutes and a mop, and the job'd have been done. Instead, the WML chose to hoof it back home, (presumably) wait a couple of days, then go to Ward Council and try to get a woman to do it (presumably, another day or two after the assignment had been made).

I'm not a feminazi; I just have a problem with people "being charitable" with other people's time and resources. Especially when they try to pass off their own laziness as "the proper order of things" or "the divinely-designated spheres of responsibility".

See how when a man was suggested to do the job, the leader was okay with it.

I don't see that Saguaro said anything about how the WML responded to the suggestion.

It almost seems, I could be wrong, that you are jumping to the old conclusion that men are so mean to women and good for her for standing up for herself. I don't see that anything mean was done here.

I made no generalities beyond those implicit in this particular anecdote--that a man tried to stick a woman with an unpleasant task that was not her responsibility and that he himself was unwilling to do, simply because she was a woman.

[pam]

"That RS President sounds awesome!!!

And the fact that an RS President can (politely) tell a male Church leader to go pound sand when he tries to pull something like that, itself says a little something about gender/power dynamics in the church. "

Please be careful to not bash male leaders of the church for suggesting women clean a floor in a house. See how when a man was suggested to do the job, the leader was okay with it. It almost seems, I could be wrong, that you are jumping to the old conclusion that men are so mean to women and good for her for standing up for herself. I don't see that anything mean was done here.

I don't think anyone said that anyone was being mean by pointing anything out. I think what was being pointed out was the stewardship of this gentleman was the Priesthood as there were no females in the home. Whether it be getting the swamp cooler ready for winter, changing a tire or mopping a floor, it was the men that had that responsibility not the RS President.

[Snow]

No. Feminists from the olden days wanted equal rights. Feminists today are different. Your Collins dictionary definition is the old definition.

Feminists today are more than about equal pay and equal rights. I am in a small group of people that understands who modern day feminists are. Modern day feminists push for women to have careers and leave their kids at day care. They push for self-fulfillment first before "slaving" for your family. Modern day feminists men bash. Modern day feminists think that women are smarter and better than men at running things.

It goes without saying - that is factually untrue.

All the women in my life/family - mom, daughters, sisters and wife are feminists and not a one of them think and do any of the things you accuse them of.

[Snow]

Or, in terms Snow can relate to - no matter how right he is, he ain't ever gonna be prophet. He'll be lucky if he can make it to High Priest before someone runs him over with their Soccer Mom SubUrban assault Vehicle.

LM

High Priest?

I'd be lucky to make it to operating thetan level 7.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Snow

[crazypotato]

It goes without saying - that is factually untrue.

All the women in my life/family - mom, daughters, sisters and wife are feminists and not a one of them think and do any of the things you accuse them of.

That's great for you and your family. Somehow, I don't remember accusing you or anyone you know of the things I was saying about feminists. So I really don't understand how you can make a blanket dismissal of everything that I have said, when I am using my experience and you are using yours. Then who is right, you, or me? How about you are right about your family and friends, and I am right about the people in my life. And by the way, I do not live in a cave.:)

[crazypotato]

I don't think anyone said that anyone was being mean by pointing anything out. I think what was being pointed out was the stewardship of this gentleman was the Priesthood as there were no females in the home. Whether it be getting the swamp cooler ready for winter, changing a tire or mopping a floor, it was the men that had that responsibility not the RS President.

My only problem with the story given, is that who of us know any of these people, so why jump on the bandwagon of what a chauvinist pig the man was, when we don't have his side of the story? I forget who wrote the story, he knows more about it than I do, but why are other people on here jumping in and saying how awesome the RS pres is and how crappy the loser guy was when he is not here to defend himself? It doesn't seem fair.

[crazypotato]

a) It wasn't her house.

b) I am, to be blunt, not prepared to extend the same "church leader" deference I give to apostles and bishops, to ward mission leaders who are trying to get out of work.

c) This particular WML was in the house--fifteen minutes and a mop, and the job'd have been done. Instead, the WML chose to hoof it back home, (presumably) wait a couple of days, then go to Ward Council and try to get a woman to do it (presumably, another day or two after the assignment had been made).

I'm not a feminazi; I just have a problem with people "being charitable" with other people's time and resources. Especially when they try to pass off their own laziness as "the proper order of things" or "the divinely-designated spheres of responsibility".

I don't see that Saguaro said anything about how the WML responded to the suggestion.

I made no generalities beyond those implicit in this particular anecdote--that a man tried to stick a woman with an unpleasant task that was not her responsibility and that he himself was unwilling to do, simply because she was a woman.

I don't recall labeling you as a feminazi. I also was not there in your ward and neither is this guy here to defend himself. Maybe it doesn't matter because no one knows who he is. The tone of your response doesn't sound exactly neutral or nonjudgmental towards this man. That's your deal. Do you think that I want women to be stuck with crappy jobs or something, and that I am a Stepford wife or something?

[Snow]

That's great for you and your family. Somehow, I don't remember accusing you or anyone you know of the things I was saying about feminists.

Well... you did. Apparently you have already forgotten. Specifically you said:

"Feminists today are more than about equal pay and equal rights. I am in a small group of people that understands who modern day feminists are. Modern day feminists push for women to have careers and leave their kids at day care. They push for self-fulfillment first before "slaving" for your family. Modern day feminists men bash. Modern day feminists think that women are smarter and better than men at running things."

I am a feminist today. According to you I, being a feminist, bash men. President Bush, being a feminst, according to you, bashes men. If you believe that women should have equal rights with men, you are a feminist and you, according to you, bash men.

So I really don't understand how you can make a blanket dismissal of everything that I have said, when I am using my experience and you are using yours. Then who is right, you, or me? How about you are right about your family and friends, and I am right about the people in my life. And by the way, I do not live in a cave.:)

It is you who is y wrong. It is not a matter of experience. It is a simple math issue. You defined the set of feminists as possessing a bunch of traits you made up to justify your dislike for feminism - which promotes equal rights. As a factual matter, you are mistaken. A thoughtful or correct opinion would hold that some portion of the feminist set are known by you to have such and such traits.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Snow

[Guest]

I don't recall labeling you as a feminazi. I also was not there in your ward and neither is this guy here to defend himself. Maybe it doesn't matter because no one knows who he is. The tone of your response doesn't sound exactly neutral or nonjudgmental towards this man. That's your deal. Do you think that I want women to be stuck with crappy jobs or something, and that I am a Stepford wife or something?

Okay, okay, time out. Take a deep breath, everyone.

Crazypotato, nobody is accusing or judging anybody. This is what happened - go read back to the posts to verify:

* Somebody made an anecdotal story about a Welfare Meeting in their ward where a Ward Mission Leader needed somebody to clean a single guy's kitchen. The "knee-jerk reaction" of the WML was to assign the job to RS. RSP reminded him that she doesn't have stewardship over the home because there is no woman in the house. So the next "knee-jerk reaction" of the WML was to assign the job to Young Women. The HPGL assured everyone that this guy has active home teachers. So, the storyteller made the suggestion to ask the home teachers to clean the kitchen (which is what should have been done in the first place). The bishop agreed and the matter was settled.

JAG congratulated the RSP for standing up to the big boys to point out whose stewardship this job is.

There is no judgement beyond the "moral of the story". You know, just like when your mother told you about the Hare and the Tortoise to get you to understand a life lesson. We're not saying the Hare is a stupid moron. We're just saying, that in THIS STORY, the moral is that the Hare lacked wisdom. That's not a judgement on the Hare beyond the moral. Otherwise, if you consider that inappropriate judgement, then there is no way we can use any story to point out the error of our ways.

Are we all cool now?

[rameumptom]

It goes without saying - that is factually untrue.

All the women in my life/family - mom, daughters, sisters and wife are feminists and not a one of them think and do any of the things you accuse them of.

If it goes without saying, then why did you feel compelled to say it?

Of course, I agree that women should be able to do more than just be a housewife. Then again, the term "feminist" has changed a lot over the years. The Gloria Steinem form that basically hated all men is being replaced by Sarah Palin's concept of women being able to be feminine but also forge a place in the world for themselves.

[Wingnut]

No. Feminists from the olden days wanted equal rights. Feminists today are different. Your Collins dictionary definition is the old definition.

Feminists today are more than about equal pay and equal rights. I am in a small group of people that understands who modern day feminists are. Modern day feminists push for women to have careers and leave their kids at day care. They push for self-fulfillment first before "slaving" for your family. Modern day feminists men bash. Modern day feminists think that women are smarter and better than men at running things.

Funny, I would say it's just the opposite. In the early days of feminism, the trend was the bash men and ensure equal job opportunities, pay, etc. for women. Early feminists didn't care who they trod down on their quest for equality. Modern feminists see that early feminism was actually one of the worst things that ever happened to femininity. (Abrasive attitudes like yours don't help either.) Modern feminists understand that it is their right to choose what they wish to do in life, just as it is a man's right. Many choose to stay home with children. Many choose to enter the workforce and climb corporate ladders.

It's also worth noting that men-bashing is not feminism, it is misandry.

I was in a welfare meeting this past Sunday and the ward mission leader said he visited a man in the ward who is less active, lives alone, recently widowed, and of poor health. The man's kitchen floor was very dirty and in need of cleaning but he couldn't do it himself due to his health. So in the meeting the mission leader turns to the RS president and asks if some ladies could go over and clean the man's floor. The RS president asked if the man had home teachers, the HPGL confirmed that he does and they visit regularly. The RS president was a little confused because with no woman in the home she really doesn't have any direct strewardship, so the mission leader suggest maybe some young women could go clean the floor. So I spoke up and said why can't the home teachers do it? If they don't know how to mop a floor then something's not right. The bishop thought about it a second then agreed and told the HPGL to inform the home teachers, I told the HPGL that if the home teachers needed any help I'd be happy to volunteer. It just drove me crazy that because man needed his floor cleaned the knee jerk reaction was to send a woman to do the job.

Excellent experience. Thank you for sharing.

I grew up a Mormon in Utah. I grew up hearing women all over the church claiming they wore the pants in their home.

Really, this is just laughable. Did you grow up in Utah, or did you grow up in the real world, where you might actually experience "women all over the church"?

...so why jump on the bandwagon of what a chauvinist pig the man was, when we don't have his side of the story?

No one said he was either a chauvinist or a pig. It was point out that he was stereotypical in assuming that it should be a woman who mopped the widower's floor, despite there being no woman in the home already. It was pointed out that he should have thought things through a little better first.

...but why are other people on here jumping in and saying how awesome the RS pres is and how crappy the loser guy was when he is not here to defend himself?

You know, for being such an anti-feminist, you've referred to men as "crappy" at least twice in the last two pages. Would you like to be the pot today, or the kettle?