How did God become God?

[Hemidakota]

Thanks...

[Vanhin]

OK, I'll try to be brief.

As far as 4, it's not that I disagree, but that I'd have to finish it with "... in this eternal round."

Now, with 3, we can use a section of "Jesus the Christ" by Elder Talmage, as Vanhin posted it in another thread...

"It now becomes our purpose to inquire as to the position and status of Jesus the Christ in the antemortal world, from the period of the solemn council in heaven, in which He was chosen to be the future Savior and Redeemer of mankind, to the time at which He was born in the flesh."

Notice this says nothing of what Christ was before He was chosen to be the Redeemer in the Grand Council.

One can speculate that He was God before, and what that might mean. I believe ALL children of God are "god" by a loose definition, because that is the "race of man." But, there was a period before Christ was chosen to be the Redeemer where He was the same as the rest of us: no physical body, no calling of Redeemer, no calling to the Godhead.

There's no speculation there. He was indeed God before the council, in the same way that the Father was God when he found himself among spirits and glory, and created a way for all of us to be exalted with himself because he was more intelligent. The Book of Abraham speaks to this.

Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first. And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him. (Abraham 3:22-28)

As you can tell, the one who was chosen as Savior, was like unto God, before he was chosen - a distiction not shared by any of the other intelligences who were there, except God (of course).

Regards,

Vanhin

[Justice]

I have made an effort to be more clear, and only address your direct quotes.

"Like unto God" can mean many things. That Jehovah was a member of the Godhead before He was chosen as the Savior is speculation. It seems more logical that both came at the same time, the call to be the Savior and in the Godhead. That would place what needed defined on "infinite and eternal."

What I'm saying is that it needs to be pondered and prayed about with sincerity.

If Jehovah was chosen to be the Savior in the Grand Council, that means He was not before He was chosen. Yet, it was known by the Father that He would be, so He always was? I am not trying to discount scripture, but trying to use simple logic and understanding while interpreting them.

If you say something was chosen to this or that, it means (without further revelation) that it wasn't what it was chosen to be prior to that moment. We understand enough to know that without being told. Was a bishop a bishop before he was called since it was known by God's foreknowledge he would be bishop? I am coming from the perspective that the man was not bishop until he was ordained, even though it was known. Even though it was infinite and eternal knowledge that he would be bishop, he was not a bishop until he was given the keys.

It is much like the discussion between agency and foreknowledge. How can we make choices if our choices are known before hand? How can Christ be the Redeemer for all things prior to the Grand Council if that's when He was chosen to be? Did we (or He) really have a choice?

Speculation? Or, trying to understand the words?

What about Lucifer? He wanted to be the Savior. It is said that he was intelligent. How intelligent would it be for him to want to be something if there was One who was already chosen to be, and everyone already knew that because the Chosen One was already in the Godhead?

I think "endless and eternal" need to be considered more than most do. It is quite possible that mortals do not see it the same way. I believe Christ is infinite and eternal, as was His sacrifice.

But, consider this scripture, where God has to explain this very thing:

D&C 19:

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

The speculation is on what endless and eternal mean through the veil, not that Jesus Christ is endless and eternal.

If there will come a time when endless torment will end, is there also a time when something endless can begin? We know this to be true in this case, because those from this earth destined for "endless and eternal" punishment are not being so punished now. It will begin at some period, then end, yet, endless and eternal all the same.

So, do we inform God that it can't be endless and eternal punishment because it begins and ends?

It can be endless and eternal if it is of something that is endless.

What is endless and etrnal? The family of man and the Priesthood.

Again, without further revelation, we can deduce that Christ's sufferings were "infinite and eternal" yet they had a beginning and an end, because He is not constantly suffering the atonement, nor has He always been. In fact, it is a suffering that must be done while mortal in order to overcome death. The price has been paid, even though it was an infinite and eternal price.

Maybe you're right. Maybe these questions can't be answered. My point is that we can deduce enough to rule out some things. We don't rule out that Christ is infinite, endless, or eternal because He is offspring of the Father, or because He was chosen to be the Savior. We don't rule out Christ's Atonement as infinite and eternal because those sufferings had a beginning and end.

I think we focus on understanding endless, infinite, and eternal, and not say that Christ must fit our definition of these things. Christ IS those things; we need to understand those things.

You may have the last word. I think if we continue further it should be in private tells.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Justice

[Vanhin]

I have made an effort to be more clear, and only address your direct quotes.

"Like unto God" can mean many things. That Jehovah was a member of the Godhead before He was chosen as the Savior is speculation. It seems more logical that both came at the same time, the call to be the Savior and in the Godhead. That would place what needed defined on "infinite and eternal."

I have not addressed the topic of when Jesus became a member of the Godhead. I have established from the scriptures, that when the Grand Council met, the intelligence who was chosen as the Savior was already "like unto God". He was a Godlike Intelligence like the Father, even then. He did not possess the fullness of the Father at that point, which ultimately means immortality and exaltation as we understand it, but apparently that did not prevent Him from being like unto God. The same limitation does not prevent the Holy Ghost from being God even now.

That Jesus was and is God, is plain and precious doctrine, that has not been removed from either the Bible or the Book of Mormon. John begins with an absolute affirmation of this fact, in the New Testament.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (John 1:1-5)

The entire purpose of the Book of Mormon, is for the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that "Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God" (Title Page) and all of our other scriptures only solidify the case - in plain language, nonetheless.

Yet, we have a way of rationalizing those plain truths to make them fit our temporal understanding. To us, here in mortality, there is a beginning and an end to things. This makes it difficult for us to comprehend things that have no beginning and no end. So, I can understand why some would try applying a temporal model to eternal truths. That's what I see you (and others) doing when you suggest actual beginnings to things God has said have no beginning. As Joseph Smith taught, if our spirit had a beginning it would have an end. I think God simply teaches us using temporal models, because he teaches to our understanding. The eternal perspective is one that we learn as we apply the teachings of God in our lives. We will from time to time receive glimpses and impressions of things that our mind in this current state cannot fully comprehend - but we are enlightened nonetheless.

To redefine "infinite and eternal", in the context of our discussion, only serves to harmonize the scriptures with your beliefs. There are epochs of time and eternity. I agree, and each one has a beginning and an end. But the scriptures make it clear, that God's tenure is from "everlasting to everlasting", or in other words, "from one eternity to another". Without end... like a ring.

I am also aware that the scriptures sometimes use the terms "eternal" and "endless" as titles of things that are of God - like endless torment, and eternal damnation. Those uses of the terms mean "God's torment" and "God's damnation" respectively, and not necessarily that the torment will not have an end (D&C 19:6-12). However, it is a fact that those who will be cast into outer darkness, will experience "eternal damnation" forever and ever. To them, there will be no end to the torment and the description of their condition takes on a more literal meaning.

In the context of God's tenure or the existence of our spirits, we cannot ignore the Book of Abraham's definition:

...if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal. And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all. (Abr. 3:18-19)

In those two passage the definition for eternal is clearly established as "no beginning" and "no end". So, in a venture to redefine "eternal" you have to redefine a bunch of other words as well to come to the understanding that you have.

What I'm saying is that it needs to be pondered and prayed about with sincerity.

Clearly these things require study and prayer, and revelation. If I didn't know better, I would take this remark and others like it as an indication that you think that if only I would ponder these things and pray about them that I would begin to see things the way you do.

The eternal truths that I hold dear to my heart, have come to me as I have pondered and prayed about the scriptures, and not only that, as I have applied the principles in my life.

If Jehovah was chosen to be the Savior in the Grand Council, that means He was not before He was chosen. Yet, it was known by the Father that He would be, so He always was? I am not trying to discount scripture, but trying to use simple logic and understanding while interpreting them.

If you say something was chosen to this or that, it means (without further revelation) that it wasn't what it was chosen to be prior to that moment. We understand enough to know that without being told. Was a bishop a bishop before he was called since it was known by God's foreknowledge he would be bishop? I am coming from the perspective that the man was not bishop until he was ordained, even though it was known. Even though it was infinite and eternal knowledge that he would be bishop, he was not a bishop until he was given the keys.

It is much like the discussion between agency and foreknowledge. How can we make choices if our choices are known before hand? How can Christ be the Redeemer for all things prior to the Grand Council if that's when He was chosen to be? Did we (or He) really have a choice?

Since this is mostly about a case that I did not make, I won't address too much of it. But I will point out, that you are applying a temporal understanding and time line to things that are infinite and eternal. Clearly Adam was able to repent and be baptized for a remission of his sins because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, before the Atonement was actually performed. God's word is his bond.

Speculation? Or, trying to understand the words?

What about Lucifer? He wanted to be the Savior. It is said that he was intelligent. How intelligent would it be for him to want to be something if there was One who was already chosen to be, and everyone already knew that because the Chosen One was already in the Godhead?

Obviously he was more proud than he was intelligent, because he did already know who the Chosen One was.

And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first. (Abr. 3:27)

I think "endless and eternal" need to be considered more than most do. It is quite possible that mortals do not see it the same way. I believe Christ is infinite and eternal, as was His sacrifice.

But, consider this scripture, where God has to explain this very thing:

D&C 19:

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

The speculation is on what endless and eternal mean through the veil, not that Jesus Christ is endless and eternal.

If there will come a time when endless torment will end, is there also a time when something endless can begin? We know this to be true in this case, because those from this earth destined for "endless and eternal" punishment are not being so punished now. It will begin at some period, then end, yet, endless and eternal all the same.

So, do we inform God that it can't be endless and eternal punishment because it begins and ends?

It can be endless and eternal if it is of something that is endless.

What is endless and etrnal? The family of man and the Priesthood.

Again, without further revelation, we can deduce that Christ's sufferings were "infinite and eternal" yet they had a beginning and an end, because He is not constantly suffering the atonement, nor has He always been. In fact, it is a suffering that must be done while mortal in order to overcome death. The price has been paid, even though it was an infinite and eternal price.

That's just the thing. Neither you nor I can comprehend how Christ could suffer all things in a virtual instance, yet the scope and power of His Atonement to redeem all mankind is is both infinite and eternal, and universal. That is what the scriptures and modern prophets and apostles teach.

Maybe you're right. Maybe these questions can't be answered. My point is that we can deduce enough to rule out some things. We don't rule out that Christ is infinite, endless, or eternal because He is offspring of the Father, or because He was chosen to be the Savior. We don't rule out Christ's Atonement as infinite and eternal because those sufferings had a beginning and end.

I think we focus on understanding endless, infinite, and eternal, and not say that Christ must fit our definition of these things. Christ IS those things; we need to understand those things.

You may have the last word. I think if we continue further it should be in private tells.

Thanks.

I agree. We shouldn't try to make the scriptures fit our own understanding. I believe my understanding can be drawn from the plain reading of the scriptures. No matter what other truths we learn by the Spirit, as we ponder the scriptures, they cannot take away from the plain meanings. Of course, I do agree, that sometimes the plain meaning escapes us, if we do not have ears to hear are eyes to see. But when God says that there is no beginning of days or end of years to his being, then it's foolish to come to some other conclusion about what He means. I think He means just what He is saying.

My main beef with all of this is why is God having no beginning so important to disprove? To me that quest seems divisive not just to those latter-day saints who believe it, but to the rest of Christianity as well (and Judaism). Here's a little something that thekabalist shared with me once. I think there is a good bit there that you would appreciate and agree with.

To answer your question the phrase "from everlasting to everlasting" would likely be "from world to world" in Hebrew. As I said before in Hebrew time is connected with the existence of the world. Of course one could speculate and even say that time is connected with the existence of "a" world and that would open the doors to a lot of Kabbalistic understanding. The truth is that Judaism believes that there are many worlds and that we will rule on the worlds on behalf of G-d just like the angels rule on the stars. Now about G-d Judaism believes that He has always been G-d. That doesn't derive from a notion of everlasting like Greek philosophy but from the fact that G-d was never created. Some however might say that even within G-d there are attributes that emanate and therefore if you want to think Kabbalistically about the primordial attribute of G-d which has always existed and emanated then that would be Keter (Crown) which is the first little sphere you see in my avatar. Keter would be understood as G-d's intelligence or mind. That according to ancient Judaism has always existed. (Excerpt from a PM from thekabalist)

That is actually pretty close to what I personally believe about God, creation, the eternities, and exaltation. The most obvious component missing in his explanation is the restored truth that we too are co-eternal with God.

Thanks for giving me the last word. See you in PM land.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited July 11, 2010 by Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

I have made an effort to be more clear, and only address your direct quotes.

"Like unto God" can mean many things. That Jehovah was a member of the Godhead before He was chosen as the Savior is speculation. It seems more logical that both came at the same time, the call to be the Savior and in the Godhead. That would place what needed defined on "infinite and eternal."

What I'm saying is that it needs to be pondered and prayed about with sincerity.

If Jehovah was chosen to be the Savior in the Grand Council, that means He was not before He was chosen. Yet, it was known by the Father that He would be, so He always was? I am not trying to discount scripture, but trying to use simple logic and understanding while interpreting them.

If you say something was chosen to this or that, it means (without further revelation) that it wasn't what it was chosen to be prior to that moment. We understand enough to know that without being told. Was a bishop a bishop before he was called since it was known by God's foreknowledge he would be bishop? I am coming from the perspective that the man was not bishop until he was ordained, even though it was known. Even though it was infinite and eternal knowledge that he would be bishop, he was not a bishop until he was given the keys.

It is much like the discussion between agency and foreknowledge. How can we make choices if our choices are known before hand? How can Christ be the Redeemer for all things prior to the Grand Council if that's when He was chosen to be? Did we (or He) really have a choice?

Excellent analogy Justice.

Speculation? Or, trying to understand the words?

What about Lucifer? He wanted to be the Savior. It is said that he was intelligent. How intelligent would it be for him to want to be something if there was One who was already chosen to be, and everyone already knew that because the Chosen One was already in the Godhead?

I think "endless and eternal" need to be considered more than most do. It is quite possible that mortals do not see it the same way. I believe Christ is infinite and eternal, as was His sacrifice.

But, consider this scripture, where God has to explain this very thing:

D&C 19:

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

The speculation is on what endless and eternal mean through the veil, not that Jesus Christ is endless and eternal.

If there will come a time when endless torment will end, is there also a time when something endless can begin? We know this to be true in this case, because those from this earth destined for "endless and eternal" punishment are not being so punished now. It will begin at some period, then end, yet, endless and eternal all the same.

So, do we inform God that it can't be endless and eternal punishment because it begins and ends?

It can be endless and eternal if it is of something that is endless.

What is endless and etrnal? The family of man and the Priesthood.

Again, without further revelation, we can deduce that Christ's sufferings were "infinite and eternal" yet they had a beginning and an end, because He is not constantly suffering the atonement, nor has He always been. In fact, it is a suffering that must be done while mortal in order to overcome death. The price has been paid, even though it was an infinite and eternal price.

Maybe you're right. Maybe these questions can't be answered. My point is that we can deduce enough to rule out some things. We don't rule out that Christ is infinite, endless, or eternal because He is offspring of the Father, or because He was chosen to be the Savior. We don't rule out Christ's Atonement as infinite and eternal because those sufferings had a beginning and end.

I think we focus on understanding endless, infinite, and eternal, and not say that Christ must fit our definition of these things. Christ IS those things; we need to understand those things.

You may have the last word. I think if we continue further it should be in private tells.

Following your statement, I believe we can elicit a correct answer after we do our part in thorough study and research, pondering over what we learn, at least have the Spirit witness to us if our edification was true or not.

In using this method, I use to believe that Lucifer and the third host were the only ones “who refused the plan” and eventually casted out. Now, I don't believe it was so. There was a great deal more than a third in the beginning. Even if this is personal matter, it only adds a deeper relationship for my elder brother [Jesus the Christ] and the wisdom of GOD in allowing us to be sent forth and prepare the world for His coming and help those who are less fortunate than us.

I do concur, there are answers that may not be given in this realm for a specific reason, but, it should not prevent us to seek audience with GOD and be guided in our edification by the Holy Ghost when inquiring the scriptures in the same manner as Joseph did when he corrected the Bible.

[Traveler]

My opinion: We can learn much about G-d by observing his creations. Perhaps the first things we will notice about creation are the always present cycle of things. And so we may ask – which was first, the chicken or the egg. That depends on our perspective – is an egg a chicken’s way or making another chicken or is a chicken an egg’s way of making lots more eggs?

I believe the analysis of G-d is similar to the chicken and the egg. How did G-d become G-d? In the same manner we observe his creations. G-d become G-d in the same manner an egg becomes a chicken. That is that G-d always had the means and destiny to be a chicken. Long before G-d ever created anything relating to this universe it was part of the cycle of who he is and what he is to be a creator.

Likewise it is our destiny as beings in the image and likeness of G-d (G-dly eggs) to be one with G-d and complete the cycle also becoming creators. This is not a stone that G-d cannot lift challenge to his power – it is the essence and purpose of every living thing – And G-d is a living G-d.

The Traveler

[Moksha]

The answer lies with personal desire...

So then it is pizza related after all.

[Hemidakota]

Unless it is home made, then YES!

[Blackmarch]

Abr 3:18-21

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

20 The Lord thy God sent his angel to deliver thee from the hands of the priest of Elkenah.

21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

D&C 93:21-30

21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.

23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;

24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.

26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;

27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments.

28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

LDS.org - New Era Article - People on Other Worlds

We don't know.. however if he progressed to become God, i'd highly recommend looking at how Christ progressed.