LDS, Objectivism and the John Birch Society

[prisonchaplain]

William Buckley wrote a novel a few years back entitled Getting it Right. Amazon.com: Getting It Right: A Novel (9780895261380): William F. Buckley: Books In it he has two young characters, one of whom is an LDS returned missionary. The time is the late 50s to early 60s, and one of the characters joins Ayn Rand's study group, the LDS RM joins the John Birch Society. The novel is intriguing and insiteful, in my always humble opinion.

What drives this thread is that I have noticed that a disproportionately high number of LDS do seem drawn to what I would call strong conservatism on the one hand, and Libertarian-like individualism on the other. When Jerry Falwell started his Moral Majority, he shocked many of his colleagues be recruiting amongst LDS, apparently with some success.

Rather than discuss or debate the merits of these movements, I'm more curious as to whether my perception is accurate, and if so, just what it is about LDS faith that might groom people for such movements? Oh...and does this link hold true only in the U.S. or are LDS elsewhere also drawn to more conservative or individualistic politics?

OK...fire at will!

[NeuroTypical]

What drives this thread is that I have noticed that a disproportionately high number of LDS do seem drawn to what I would call strong conservatism on the one hand, and Libertarian-like individualism on the other.

What a good way of putting it. I agree wholeheartedly.

Yes indeed, it is a US only phenomenon, with the biggest bunch of it happening in Utah and Idaho. In the Presidential election that gave Bill Clinton a 2nd term, for example, Utah was the only state where he came in third - behind Perot.

If you want to see a passionate discussion, look at a thread where US and non-US LDS folk talk about the role of government.

I figure it springs from our proud Pioneer heritage, and then almost fighting a war with the US over our right to do whatever the heck we please and be left alone. Both conservatives and libertarians want a federal government to be strong in certain areas, and weak or powerless in all other areas. It's just that libertarians have a shorter list, and seek total impotence in other areas, than conservatives. In other words, libertarians want pre-civil-war fedgov, while conservatives would be happy if we could just abolish modern interpretation of the commerce clause.

LM

[crazypotato]

Personally, I am conservative/libertarian leaning from looking at the church welfare system and the heavy council by church leaders for us to be self-sufficient. We are supposed to have a supply of food, have a 72 hour kit, get out of debt and stay out of debt, etc. And the welfare system of the church is designed to try to encourage members to work if they can and use the system only temporarily.

Also, having worked for Medicaid for a number a years, I see how many well meaning people in a bureaucracy can waste millions of dollars and clog up a system into such inefficiency that lots of people don't get the help that they need.

Joseph Smith stated that the Constitution of the US was inspired by God, and that people in this land were meant to be free, as long as they were righteous. He advised all members to study and understand the Constitution. I have studied it and believe that it leans most towards a conservative/libertarian system of government.

[prisonchaplain]

Just to throw out a different perspective, last week I was at a conference on post traumatic stress syndrome. The speaker said she had been an atheist as a young person, primarily as a result of reading Ayn Rand's books. Later on she converted to Christianity, and now looks back on Rand's writings as being very arrogant. She never spoke of her politics, but I recall ultimately feeling the same way, despite being enamored with her works younger in my life. Never did appreciate her atheism, though.

[Moksha]

Whether LDS people are particularly vulnerable to unusual political thinking or not, it is important that that such politics do not infect the Church organization and divert it from its religious missions. Same with the Assemblies of God and even the Southern Baptist Conference.

[prisonchaplain]

Moksha...good point. And, AoG faith, at least in the last 25 years, has leaned quite heavily in one particular direction. IMHO, it's directly related to the 1972 Roe v. Wade decision. Prior to that most pentecostals were more or less apolitical--seeing it as a dirty arena belonging to Babylon. I'm told that through WWII many pentecostals were even pacifists.

My guess is, as Loudmouth suggested, the reason for some of these interesting trends is largely cultural and historical, rather than theological.

[rayhale]

PC, it was very much cultural and historical, there’s a quote by President Gordon B. Hinckley that I can’t remember what he said exactly, but he talked about the pioneers, and how if you didn’t make it, produce it, farm it, (ect…) you go without it. Sure the Church would help if you needed it. But that was the last resort.

A lot of people are willing to give to charity, or do chartable things like build homes for the poor, but for these same people, it seems wrong, almost sinful to accept charity.

[dorave]

The Book of Mormon, everything regarding your questions comes from there for us.. from America the promised land/new Jerusalem, tilling the land equals prosperity, the Secret Combinations n govt takeovers, the caution of govt, corruption, the fall of nations and wiping out of nations, wars, liberty, bearing arms, to the prophecies of our day. It all comes from there.

Edited July 17, 2010 by dorave

[Just_A_Guy]

[Warning: severe over-generalizations follow.]

I think most Mormons aren't really libertarians so much as they are federalists. We lost our faith in the federal government following its refusal to intercede in Missouri and Nauvoo (and then, in the minds of some, trying to deplete Mormon manpower during the move west by leaning on the Church to provide the Mormon battalion during the Mexican War); and that was only exacerbated by Edmunds-Tucker and its progeny. In the 20th century we've tried to reconcile ourselves to being patriotic Americans, but deep down we still don't quite trust the feds.

We remain very socially conservative and generally like the idea of trying to legislate sin away. But we also realize that the power to ban "unchristian" publications like Playboy is also the power to ban "unchristian" publications like the Ensign. We're all too aware that the power to legislate morality can ultimately turn against us, and so we prefer to keep that power where it can do the least damage--in the hands of the states.

If a government is going to commit itself to my church's dissolution, I'd much rather it be the government of Mississippi than the government of the United States of America.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[dorave]

What a good way of putting it. I agree wholeheartedly.

Yes indeed, it is a US only phenomenon, with the biggest bunch of it happening in Utah and Idaho.

Not entirely, I'm neither American nor a resident.

[dorave]

Whether LDS people are particularly vulnerable to unusual political thinking or not, it is important that that such politics do not infect the Church organization and divert it from its religious missions. Same with the Assemblies of God and even the Southern Baptist Conference.

Nothing wrong with unusual politics, it's evil politics considered 'usual' or normal, you need to worry about.

The church may end up being political, who knows. If it is gods will, then it will also be for the church mission.

[Moksha]

The church may end up being political, who knows. If it is gods will, then it will also be for the church mission.

Most likely this will be the will of political people claiming to speak for God. How to know the difference? His Kingdom is not of this Earth, and he has given each and everyone one of us freedom of thought and action.

[Sean1427]

You've started a thread with a topic I almost don't dare touch in such a public LDS forum. However, I would like to say a few things, however. But first let me share a bit of my background. I come from one of the few LDS families that had family on both sides of the fence, so to speak, in Nauvoo during the early days of the LDS Church. One side were in the thick of things in Nauvoo; the other side was just outside Nauvoo and Carthage. Ironically, Joseph Smith named one of my ancestors after his brother, while another ancestor was named after General Thomas Brockman who led some of the Illinois militia against the Mormons. This history has carried down through my family to the present day. On the LDS side of the family, there are those who've lived all their lives inside Utah and those who've lived both in and out of Utah. And personally, I've lived and worked all over the world and in a capacity that has nothing to do with the government. All this colors my perspective.

As most know by now, the LDS had problems in the early years that certainly lasted up through their eventual attempts to gain statehood. It's ironic that today that most American LDS are of the Republican Party given the fact that it was Republican administrations created many of the problems they had as a church in the 1800s. One of the hurdles they had to clear in their attempts to gain statehood was that they had to belong to a party. To meet with this requirement, they first attempted to create their own party which was rejected by the federal powers that were. When a third party option was rejected, members were essentially assigned parties--this side of the street are Democrats, that side Republicans, etc. In this way the membership was essentially balanced out between the two parties.

Now, I would say almost all are as you've noticed, Republican, and like Republicans of all walks, they claim to be or believe they are conservative. The problem then becomes one of what does conservatism mean and this is where I could get in trouble because modern conservatism in America could be anything from a Burkean or liberal conservatism to a very nationalistic brand of conservatism. I personally believe that most LDS members in America really don't give it too much thought and there are so many contradictions between what one says and what one supports. What I'm saying is that in my opinion most LDS in the US are like everyone else in that they are what they are politically because that's what their parents were. But it's certainly not what the LDS of an earlier time were. My experiences living abroad lead me to the conclusion that almost all people, regardless of one's country, culture and religious background let our culture and our politics inform our religion rather than the other way around. And we really aren't aware of what's happening. It should be the other way around, but it's rare to see. In essence, in my opinion, the fact that most LDS in America today are Republican/conservative is more a product of their given culture than of their religion.

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[dorave]

Most likely this will be the will of political people claiming to speak for God. How to know the difference? His Kingdom is not of this Earth, and he has given each and everyone one of us freedom of thought and action.

If politics threats that very freedom, you will see God perhaps even thru the church, get involved. It has happened in the past and could very well happen in times ahead.