rameumptom Posted July 24, 2010 Report Posted July 24, 2010 Just curious, and how do you know she was not teaching what the Spirit wanted taught? I am pretty sure if we ask several members in that same class, they would say they felt the Spirit in her class. Same goes for some of Elder Dunn's talks (fabricated stories) and others who share stories that are either self centered or even fake, however many people testify of the Spirit feeling so "strong". I know because I was in the stake mission presidency at the time. She was giving a missionary talk, having invited an entire Christian congregation into her ward to hear her speak. The stake president asked the stake mission president and myself to attend and determine if it were done properly. The Spirit simply was not there, though her talk was very eloquent and did make her seem like an amazing person. She spoke for 45 minutes about herself and her personal experiences, and 5 minutes at the end concerning the Book of Mormon. Seems to me it should have been the other way around. The stake president agreed with our assessment, and she was not allowed to give anymore such events.I heard Elder Dunn speak at the MTC, and I met him there. He was filled with love for the missionaries, and you could feel that love from him. However, his talk (and as I recall his several books I read) were not filled with the Spirit, just cool stories and good advice.
Matthew0059 Posted July 24, 2010 Report Posted July 24, 2010 So we are all making sacred covenants in defiled temples then (according to your statement).No. Just_A_Guy made a good point- the LORD honors our best attempts. However, the temple is cleansed every morning by the temple workers- despite our best efforts, we still fall short.That doesn't mean the temple is any less holy, or that individual temples aren't truly houses of the LORD.
Matthew0059 Posted July 24, 2010 Report Posted July 24, 2010 Adjust your frequencies. You may not be tuning in to the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is not fickle. Thank goodness. Or else no one would ever feel its presence.While it's true that I'm not "in tune" as some others, it does become more difficult to hear the SPIRIT'S prompting when there are unresolved sins staining my soul, and this principle holds true for our environment. The SPIRIT is more difficult to hear in an unworthy environment, and prideful people (i.e., people not seeking the SPIRIT) can quickly create an unwholesome environment.
Matthew0059 Posted July 24, 2010 Report Posted July 24, 2010 It seems to me that the body-as-a-temple (and vice-versa) analogy holds up here: as long as the one responsible for managing the temple is making a sincere effort to keep it clean, the Lord honors the effort and sanctifies the tabernacle. If the Church stops trying to make the temple a holy place, it will cease to be so.Agreed. My words conveyed a sense of all-or-nothing that I don't think exists.
Moksha Posted July 24, 2010 Author Report Posted July 24, 2010 Many things are a reason I'm no longer practicing, each as equally important as the last. I was tired of people telling me I was wrong, evil, unclean, etc. when I knew in my heart I wasn't. I was tired of people passing judgment when only their Creator can do that.That's one out of many reasons. Becky, when we judge you it is our failing. I hope you can forgive us since we are people and people make mistakes. On balance, we try to be a good and helpful people.
pam Posted July 25, 2010 Report Posted July 25, 2010 For those that receive the Ensign, in the August issue that just came out there is an article entitled "Delivering an Effective Talk."
Wingnut Posted July 25, 2010 Report Posted July 25, 2010 For those that receive the Ensign, in the August issue that just came out there is an article entitled "Delivering an Effective Talk."Ironic.
UrbanFool Posted July 25, 2010 Report Posted July 25, 2010 Maybe they lurk on this forum waiting to see what the most talked about topic is for the month.
Cassiopeia Posted July 25, 2010 Report Posted July 25, 2010 I know because I was in the stake mission presidency at the time. She was giving a missionary talk, having invited an entire Christian congregation into her ward to hear her speak. The stake president asked the stake mission president and myself to attend and determine if it were done properly. The Spirit simply was not there, though her talk was very eloquent and did make her seem like an amazing person. She spoke for 45 minutes about herself and her personal experiences, and 5 minutes at the end concerning the Book of Mormon. Seems to me it should have been the other way around. The stake president agreed with our assessment, and she was not allowed to give anymore such events.I heard Elder Dunn speak at the MTC, and I met him there. He was filled with love for the missionaries, and you could feel that love from him. However, his talk (and as I recall his several books I read) were not filled with the Spirit, just cool stories and good advice.So, one thing is certain, YOU did not feel the spirit. It isn't her fault that you or others might not have. She did nothing wrong. I've gone to many a fast and testimony meeting where people did the same as she and I've heard personal stories from tons of high councilmen and Bishops and on and on. We do have to take accountability for our own inability to feel the spirit when someone speaks. I've listened to many talks by Elder Dunn and on every occasion I felt the spirit. I've read many of his books that I found inspiring and also felt the spirit. Perhaps it's not PC to say that nowadays but I'll say it anyway. For all his failings, Elder Dunn changed my life as a convert to the church.
UrbanFool Posted July 25, 2010 Report Posted July 25, 2010 Is something wrong with Elder Dunn? You seem apologetic. I can say that Deiter Uchdorf did much for me and my husband in our conversion.
UrbanFool Posted July 25, 2010 Report Posted July 25, 2010 Okay, never mind on that one. Thank goodness for the Internet!
pam Posted July 25, 2010 Report Posted July 25, 2010 Thanks Urban..I didn't want this to turn into a thread where Elder Dunn was talked about negatively. He was a wonderful man.
Matthew0059 Posted July 25, 2010 Report Posted July 25, 2010 So, one thing is certain, YOU did not feel the spirit. It isn't her fault that you or others might not have.There was another member of the priesthood with rameumpton at the time- they were under very specific orders to see if the Spirit was being felt (i.e., "see if it was being done properly"). They were entitled to the reception of the Spirit if it was present.Because the law of witnesses was fulfilled (that is, having two or more persons present to experience the event), I'd wager that rameumpton's conclusion- that this sister did not have the right intent, or something else was deeply wrong- was correct.When a person speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost brings the message to the heart of the listeners (2 Nephi 33:1). However, when the Holy Ghost cannot endorse what is being said because the speaker has ill intentions (or something else is wrong with the speaker), the Holy Ghost cannot bring it unto the hearts of the listeners.
pam Posted July 25, 2010 Report Posted July 25, 2010 The Sacrament meeting I went to today in another ward was anything but dull. The Spirit was so strong there. While singing a song in front of the congregation, I was thinking of the words as I was singing them and started tearing up. Even though I've sung that song dozens and dozens of times in Sacrament meetings across the Salt Lake Valley, I allowed myself to really feel and think of the words and it made such a difference.
Just_A_Guy Posted July 25, 2010 Report Posted July 25, 2010 No. Just_A_Guy made a good point- the LORD honors our best attempts. However, the temple is cleansed every morning by the temple workers- despite our best efforts, we still fall short.I don't recall ever hearing this, Matthew. Do you have a source?Thanks--
Moksha Posted July 26, 2010 Author Report Posted July 26, 2010 I don't recall ever hearing this, Matthew. Do you have a source?Thanks-- I assumed he was referring to the janitorial crew.
Moksha Posted July 26, 2010 Author Report Posted July 26, 2010 For those that receive the Ensign, in the August issue that just came out there is an article entitled "Delivering an Effective Talk." Not on the website yet, but here is another one:LDS.org - New Era Article - R<sub>x</sub> for Sacrament Talks
Wingnut Posted July 26, 2010 Report Posted July 26, 2010 Maybe they lurk on this forum waiting to see what the most talked about topic is for the month.I remember reading once that Church magazines are planned out something like six months in advance, as far as topics are concerned.
UrbanFool Posted July 26, 2010 Report Posted July 26, 2010 Yeah, they have little openings for last second important news items. I wondered if anyone would notice that. I told another forum I'm on that I joined the LDS church so I could have access to the cannery, and nobody got that you don't have to be a member to access the cannery. I should stay out of the joke business.
Matthew0059 Posted July 26, 2010 Report Posted July 26, 2010 I don't recall ever hearing this, Matthew. Do you have a source?Thanks--I heard it from a temple worker during (I think) a sacrament meeting- I forget who.I have a friend who is a temple worker; I'll try to find his email and double check.Or maybe someone else can verify / clarify: if I'm wrong I'd like to be set straight.
rameumptom Posted July 26, 2010 Report Posted July 26, 2010 So, one thing is certain, YOU did not feel the spirit. It isn't her fault that you or others might not have. She did nothing wrong. I've gone to many a fast and testimony meeting where people did the same as she and I've heard personal stories from tons of high councilmen and Bishops and on and on. We do have to take accountability for our own inability to feel the spirit when someone speaks. She did something wrong. She talked about herself, rather than the doctrines of the gospel. I was sent to this meeting by the stake president to determine if she was doing it according to the Spirit and Church guidelines or not. She fell into the "or not" category. It is one thing to give a personal story or two in a talk to bring about a doctrinal point. Hers did not. Her stories were just self-aggrandizement. Both the stake mission president and I were in accordance with thinking she was way out of line. D&C 50 tells us that people must speak by the Spirit, or they do it "some other way." She did it "some other way". And we're commanded in the D&C that if we do not teach by the Spirit, we shall not teach. The stake president agreed with our assessment, and gave directions that she no longer give any such firesides, etc.So, Cass, since you were not there, nor were you assigned by the stake president to assess the situation, you have no point to establish she did nothing wrong. There is this thing called the "spirit of discernment." There are assignments made by priesthood leadership to ensure the doctrine is taught by the Spirit. And there is such a thing as a person teaching by another spirit, rather than the Spirit of the Lord. This is what was discerned in this instance. It is what the Spirit was telling me regarding the lecture that made me discern she was not teaching by the Spirit.
rameumptom Posted July 26, 2010 Report Posted July 26, 2010 Thanks Urban..I didn't want this to turn into a thread where Elder Dunn was talked about negatively. He was a wonderful man.I agree he was a wonderful man. He had no control of his illness. He did much great work for the Church, and he loved those he served. His talks were cool, and I have read many of his books in the past. That said, his talks have not filled me with the Spirit as has the talks from many of the other General Authorities. Elder McConkie's final testimony of Christ moved me in ways that Elder Dunn's war stories never could.
pam Posted July 26, 2010 Report Posted July 26, 2010 Totally understand Ram. Even today there are some GA's that I feel the Spirit while others I do not. It's not that their talks are any less important or their words any less either. President Uchtdorf is one that I immediately feel the Spirit.
Cassiopeia Posted July 26, 2010 Report Posted July 26, 2010 She did something wrong. She talked about herself, rather than the doctrines of the gospel. I was sent to this meeting by the stake president to determine if she was doing it according to the Spirit and Church guidelines or not. She fell into the "or not" category. It is one thing to give a personal story or two in a talk to bring about a doctrinal point. Hers did not. Her stories were just self-aggrandizement. Both the stake mission president and I were in accordance with thinking she was way out of line. D&C 50 tells us that people must speak by the Spirit, or they do it "some other way." She did it "some other way". And we're commanded in the D&C that if we do not teach by the Spirit, we shall not teach. The stake president agreed with our assessment, and gave directions that she no longer give any such firesides, etc.So, Cass, since you were not there, nor were you assigned by the stake president to assess the situation, you have no point to establish she did nothing wrong. There is this thing called the "spirit of discernment." There are assignments made by priesthood leadership to ensure the doctrine is taught by the Spirit. And there is such a thing as a person teaching by another spirit, rather than the Spirit of the Lord. This is what was discerned in this instance. It is what the Spirit was telling me regarding the lecture that made me discern she was not teaching by the Spirit.Thank you for expanding on what happened in the situation. It certainly gives light to the situation. I still don't think what she did was "wrong" but rather misguided. Not everyone knows how to do what she was attempting to do. Hopefully anyone being given such an opportunity in the future will receive instruction first.
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