Reserved Seats in Chapel for Sacrament Meeting?

[crazypotato]

Don't you think you are over analyzing this?

It really doesn't have anything to do whether you are inactive, an investigator or even a member, it has to do with personality. We cannot be acting and walking in egg shells all the time because some people are easily offended. Being offended is a choice WE make.

Possibly she could have done that, yes...However she didn't and I am pretty sure she must be at home right now totally unaware of the impact that she had on you (negatively unfortunately). So yes, she could have greeted you first but the fact is that she didn't. Why just not move on instead of dwelling in such a petty thing?

The point is not expecting others to have a thick skin and move on, and not overanalyze, etc. The point of church is to worship TOGETHER and if we find that we have unintentionally been rude, to be nicer next time. If I went to a new church, I would expect people to be polite. If I went to sit down and someone told me to move it, I would feel unwelcome. Suzie, I understand that people who are easily offended over the littlest things are not your fault and you don't have to feel bad about it, but I don't think this is a little thing. Even Walmart has greeters.

[Boris_natasha]

There are no good reasons to save seats. Sure, families love to sit together. But isn't the important thing that you went to church as a family? I see far too many families doing the seat saving(notorious in Stake Conference) purely for vanity's purposes.

[Boris_natasha]

There are such things as good manners, fellowship, teaching by example, and putting yourself in the other person's shoes. Do we really want to emulate those people who continually save so many seats? Perhaps they are so caught up in themselves to recognize this not so petty thing.

[jayanna]

I just have to say that in my area, I am vastly a religious minority and cannot imagine our chapel being so full that people are looking for seats together. I can only imagine my ward shedding tears of gratitude in sharing our love for the gospel with so many. I can only dream that my area will one day have this issue.

[Elgama]

I agree Jayanna, when you are in a small unit you welcome people with open arms because every person is precious. I have attended a larger ward that had the same attitude and I was very greatful when as a new student, I was inundated with people who invited me to sit with them.

Would someone turning me away from a seat cause me to leave now - no it wouldn't. Would it have affected me the first time I came as a 15 year old girl, who didn't know anyone, didn't understand what was going on? It might have done. When you expect the person who is new to accept your reasons for being territorial over a seat, the established Latter Day Saint who should know better doesn't know that persons circumstances.

Fact is when a ward starts turning people away even for a small thing like seats they have forgotten how precious each child of God is. It doesn't take much to rearrange things, maybe ask a family you know to take a child. Then turn round and say to the person hello my name is?, What is your name? Its great you could join our family. What does it really take to look out for the new person, to go up and introduce yourself and say why don't you come and sit by me.

I don't care if you have a blessing etc this is one seat to find. Being crushed for one hour can make an eternal difference to someone.

[Suzie]

Maybe you are not a shy type. Personally, if I was all by myself, in a new ward, and someone said that to me, and I was shy, I would be embarrassed and feelings hurt and would leave. I am not shy, but if I saw this happen to someone, I would think the seat-saving people were jacka--es.

Which is more important, saving a seat or being kind to a stranger and welcoming them to the chapel. If I was saving seats and someone sat down in them, I would never dream of asking them to leave.

The point is not expecting others to have a thick skin and move on, and not overanalyze, etc. The point of church is to worship TOGETHER and if we find that we have unintentionally been rude, to be nicer next time. If I went to a new church, I would expect people to be polite. If I went to sit down and someone told me to move it, I would feel unwelcome. Suzie, I understand that people who are easily offended over the littlest things are not your fault and you don't have to feel bad about it, but I don't think this is a little thing. Even Walmart has greeters.

Crazypotato, I think is "crazy" (no pun intended) that we are talking about ummmm...SEATS! I don't know, may be it's me but I find the whole thing very silly and petty. Feeling embarrassed AND HURT because someone tells you the seat is reserved? Never dreaming in asking someone to leave who sat down in a seat you reserved? :eek:This whole thing NOT being a "little thing"? Oh come on crazypotato. :)

I don't know you, maybe you are extra sensitive and I am super thick skinned but the whole thing is being overly exaggerated AND if such insignificant things like that bother some people, boy then I foresee a road of many episodes of being "offended".

If you choose to feel offended at least, choose when someone directly insults you, gossip about you and is utterly mean and spiteful. But a seat? Sorry, too much for me to take.

What are we going to do next? Apologize if by chance someone who enters the chapel gets offended because unintentionally you may have look at them in a way they interpreted as mean and it hurt their feelings? Are we seriously going to be walking on egg shells all the time and cater for every single possibility of offense? No, of course.

I fully understand and I agree we should all be welcoming and kind. Unfortunately, many are not (unintentionally and intentionally). It is THEN up to us to choose NOT to get offended by moving on.

[crazypotato]

Crazypotato, I think is "crazy" (no pun intended) that we are talking about ummmm...SEATS! I don't know, may be it's me but I find the whole thing very silly and petty. Feeling embarrassed AND HURT because someone tells you the seat is reserved? Never dreaming in asking someone to leave who sat down in a seat you reserved? :eek:This whole thing NOT being a "little thing"? Oh come on crazypotato. :)

I don't know you, maybe you are extra sensitive and I am super thick skinned but the whole thing is being overly exaggerated AND if such insignificant things like that bother some people, boy then I foresee a road of many episodes of being "offended".

If you choose to feel offended at least, choose when someone directly insults you, gossip about you and is utterly mean and spiteful. But a seat? Sorry, too much for me to take.

What are we going to do next? Apologize if by chance someone who enters the chapel gets offended because unintentionally you may have look at them in a way they interpreted as mean and it hurt their feelings? Are we seriously going to be walking on egg shells all the time and cater for every single possibility of offense? No, of course.

I fully understand and I agree we should all be welcoming and kind. Unfortunately, many are not (unintentionally and intentionally). It is THEN up to us to choose NOT to get offended by moving on.

Oh I see what you are saying and I agree with you, but I also disagree with seat saving vs letting someone new sit there. I think this may be a cultural thing. To you, it is silly and petty and that's fine. I don't think you are a mean person. To me, it is against my cultural etiquette. I have lived in very friendly parts of the country where this would be considered very rude. I have also visited different parts of the country where this would not be considered rude. I don't disagree wtih you, but I think you live somewhere else culturally a little different than me.

[Suzie]

Oh I see what you are saying and I agree with you, but I also disagree with seat saving vs letting someone new sit there. I think this may be a cultural thing. To you, it is silly and petty and that's fine. I don't think you are a mean person. To me, it is against my cultural etiquette. I have lived in very friendly parts of the country where this would be considered very rude. I have also visited different parts of the country where this would not be considered rude. I don't disagree wtih you, but I think you live somewhere else culturally a little different than me.

Hmmmm Culturally? No, I don't think so. I think is a matter of personalities. Besides the US, I lived in many countries around the world because of my job. It was never an issue. I suppose we have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

[Elgama]

Its not just a seat, its part of feeling welcomed or not welcomed. That is not petty. Like Crazypotato to turn someone away without at least some good apolgetic excuse would be plain rude. For me rudeness is simple common sense its about caring for someone else. You don't know if the strange face is investigating or just come back after a period of inactivity.

Being turned away wouldn't bother me, but I also know that nothing contributes more to inactivity, or not commiting to baptism quicker than a feeling of not belonging of feeling unwanted. Should these people feel that way probably not, but its not hypersensitive because actually the moment you turn that person away they are unloved, unthought about. Christ has not welcomed Him into His chapel with open arms.

Actually find it disgusting that a strange face is not cared for and invited to sit somewhere. If we as Latter Day Saints can't do Christ's duty and keep those first two commandments. To then blame the other person stinks. Sure they will be held accountable for their actions but surely the greater sin is with the one with the greatest understanding.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Elgama

[Carl62]

I can top all of this. How would you like to go to a Stake Conference and be rudely told "Nope. Can't sit there. The seat is taken", (and yes, said exactly like that) only to look over half way through the conference and see that the seat is still empty! That actually happened just this past conference.

[Suzie]

Elgama, I think maybe we are all seeing this from a different perspective. I fully agree we should all emulate the Savior in our deeds, HOWEVER (and I suppose that's where my perspective becomes different) we have to be realistic that not everyone is always that way (whether on purpose or not) even in the Church.

You are focusing on the person who says to another that the seat is reserved (and that they should be welcoming, kind, etc...) Oh yes, I agree and I am focusing on the person receiving that message because in the end, the person receiving that message is the one that has the issue (took offense) and the one that needs to move on.

I agree with a lot of the things you said in your post but again, you and I know not everyone is like that and even as we strive to reach that level of compassion and understanding, many do not. THEN what we do? We cry and feel sorry for ourselves? It doesn't change the issue, the person receiving the message is the one that has to choose (and understand) what type of reaction she will have. It's not about the other person it's about yourself and how you choose to feel.

Elder Bednar:

When we believe or say we have been offended, we usually mean we feel insulted, mistreated, snubbed, or disrespected. And certainly clumsy, embarrassing, unprincipled, and mean-spirited things do occur in our interactions with other people that would allow us to take offense. However, it ultimately is impossible for another person to offend you or to offend me. Indeed, believing that another person offended us is fundamentally false. To be offended is a choice we make; it is not a condition inflicted or imposed upon us by someone or something else.

Understanding that the Church is a learning laboratory helps us to prepare for an inevitable reality. In some way and at some time, someone in this Church will do or say something that could be considered offensive. Such an event will surely happen to each and every one of us—and it certainly will occur more than once. Though people may not intend to injure or offend us, they nonetheless can be inconsiderate and tactless.

You and I cannot control the intentions or behavior of other people. However, we do determine how we will act. Please remember that you and I are agents endowed with moral agency, and we can choose not to be offended.

One of the greatest indicators of our own spiritual maturity is revealed in how we respond to the weaknesses, the inexperience, and the potentially offensive actions of others. A thing, an event, or an expression may be offensive, but you and I can choose not to be offended—and to say with Pahoran, "it mattereth not."

And Nothing Shall Offend Them

[crazypotato]

I can top all of this. How would you like to go to a Stake Conference and be rudely told "Nope. Can't sit there. The seat is taken", (and yes, said exactly like that) only to look over half way through the conference and see that the seat is still empty! That actually happened just this past conference.

That was very rude and I guess lots of members of the church don't see that as being rude, but it is.

[FunkyTown]

I like, 'And nothing shall offend them'. It's a great talk about how we can't be offended.

That's why, when I was on vacation and someone told me in a chapel I was visiting that an empty pew was reserved, I cheerily continued plopping in and said 'Then the maitre'd lied to me. You should take it up with him.'

It's just a seat and Elder Bednar's talk was pretty specific, so I figured she probably wasn't offended.

And Nothing Shall Offend Them

[crazypotato]

Suzie,

No one is disagreeing with you, but it sounds a little cold when the OP is the one whose feelings were hurt. To tell her to move on and get over it without acknowledging that her feelings were hurt and that it was rude sounds kind of cold. I don't think you are being cold, just practical, but it can be taken that way. You are probably not a shy person or unsure of yourself, so you are having a hard time seeing this as something that is very hurtful.

Even though it doesn't seem hurtful to you, it is still hurtful to others and I don't think that makes them oversensitive. I don't want you to think that I am attacking you, because your logic and intent are all good, and lots of people agree with you. I am just saying, I used to think that people who are easily offended are not my problem, but I have changed my mind on that over the years to wanting to be more careful of other's feelings.

[crazypotato]

I like, 'And nothing shall offend them'. It's a great talk about how we can't be offended.

That's why, when I was on vacation and someone told me in a chapel I was visiting that an empty pew was reserved, I cheerily continued plopping in and said 'Then the maitre'd lied to me. You should take it up with him.'

It's just a seat and Elder Bednar's talk was pretty specific, so I figured she probably wasn't offended.

Your reply is funny, and lots of people have suggested similar funny remarks. If you were a shy person, new to the ward or church, I don't think you would have the strength to say this if you had just worked up your nerve for a few hours or days to even go to the church.

[FunkyTown]

Your reply is funny, and lots of people have suggested similar funny remarks. If you were a shy person, new to the ward or church, I don't think you would have the strength to say this if you had just worked up your nerve for a few hours or days to even go to the church.

Unfortunately, as someone who is not shy, I find it difficult to understand why people would rather have their feelings hurt and shy away from church.

Incidentally: This is not a 'What if' scenario. This really did happen. I had been poking fun at my own ward for having 'Assigned seating' for families where new people would get dirty looks if they walked in and happened to take. It was to the point that our Bishop gave a 'There is no such thing as Assigned seating' talk, because he noticed it was a problem. When I was on vacation, I saw someone doing the exact same thing. My reaction was not the perfect one, but I was feeling particularly surly that day and so I hoped to illustrate a point. As I age, I realize that I should be less confrontational about things. This doesn't always happen, but I realize I should. That's a start, right?

My advice: Prioritize. If the sentence of what you're about to do sounds ridiculous when you put it in to words, it probably is.

"Yes, I'm going to deny myself the blessings of the Priesthood and church and will cease developing myself spiritually, but that guy didn't let me sit where I wanted!"

"Yes, I'm going to split up my family, divorce my wife and have endless nights alone until I get in to another relationship where I'll have the same problems, but SHE leaves her pantyhose on the floor!"

"I think I will have a sandwich. With cheese. It will nourish my body and taste good."

One of those three actually makes sense when you put it in to words. Which one? My cunningness knows no bounds, but the dear reader of this puzzle may be able to figure it out with some effort.

That method generally works for me.

[crazypotato]

I don't think shyness is a choice. I believe it is a personality trait. I was born shy and had to really fight it. Now as I am an adult I am not shy at all. Being shy is not a sin. Maybe a shy person is much more sensitive. I look at my 3 kids. They were born different. One is extremely outgoing. One just had to give a talk in Primary again and can't look people in the eye and can't even say her talk. She just stands and holds onto my arm. Instead of being impatient or mad at her, I told her she did a good job to stand in front of those people and with time, she will feel less shy and scared about it. It takes practice. My youngest one doesn't need to practice not being shy. She is a people person. My other kid is a mix.

Logically, it is stupid to leave church and be offended over "seats." To a shy brain, it is a different thought process. It takes actual emotional strength to get their gumption up to even go into a big group meeting by themselves. Even if no one tells them to move to another seat, they are still using emotional energy just to be there, so if someone adds unkindness, that is kind of more than they can handle for a moment. I have a dear friend that is still so shy. You wouldn't know it to see her at church, but she will tell you that going to ward parties is torture for her. She would rather have a root canal because of that large group of people. Even family parties are torturous because she hates the social pressure and it gives her a headache and she needs to lie down afterwards. And btw, her testimony is awesome! She has a strong testimony.

So I think this is a separate issue and has nothing to do with how strong a testimony is.

[Suzie]

Suzie,

No one is disagreeing with you, but it sounds a little cold when the OP is the one whose feelings were hurt. To tell her to move on and get over it without acknowledging that her feelings were hurt and that it was rude sounds kind of cold. I don't think you are being cold, just practical, but it can be taken that way. You are probably not a shy person or unsure of yourself, so you are having a hard time seeing this as something that is very hurtful.

Even though it doesn't seem hurtful to you, it is still hurtful to others and I don't think that makes them oversensitive. I don't want you to think that I am attacking you, because your logic and intent are all good, and lots of people agree with you. I am just saying, I used to think that people who are easily offended are not my problem, but I have changed my mind on that over the years to wanting to be more careful of other's feelings.

Oh no crazypotato, please never feel that you or anyone else here could offend me. Thanks for your reply. :)

I don't think I am "cold", I am not sure if I am practical but I think I am definetely realistic.

If being offended over a seat is not being oversensitive, then I don't know what it is.

[crazypotato]

Oh no crazypotato, please never feel that you or anyone else here could offend me. Thanks for your reply. :)

I don't think I am "cold", I am not sure if I am practical but I think I am definetely realistic.

If being offended over a seat is not being oversensitive, then I don't know what it is.

To you, it's just a seat. To someone else, it is being snubbed or not welcomed. Two different perspectives.

[semodex]

All I know is that if Jesus Christ were sitting in that pew, He would squish over to make room for you or let you have the seat.

[Tarnished]

I don't think shyness is a choice. I believe it is a personality trait. I was born shy and had to really fight it. Now as I am an adult I am not shy at all. Being shy is not a sin. Maybe a shy person is much more sensitive. I look at my 3 kids. They were born different. One is extremely outgoing. One just had to give a talk in Primary again and can't look people in the eye and can't even say her talk. She just stands and holds onto my arm. Instead of being impatient or mad at her, I told her she did a good job to stand in front of those people and with time, she will feel less shy and scared about it. It takes practice. My youngest one doesn't need to practice not being shy. She is a people person. My other kid is a mix.

Logically, it is stupid to leave church and be offended over "seats." To a shy brain, it is a different thought process. It takes actual emotional strength to get their gumption up to even go into a big group meeting by themselves. Even if no one tells them to move to another seat, they are still using emotional energy just to be there, so if someone adds unkindness, that is kind of more than they can handle for a moment. I have a dear friend that is still so shy. You wouldn't know it to see her at church, but she will tell you that going to ward parties is torture for her. She would rather have a root canal because of that large group of people. Even family parties are torturous because she hates the social pressure and it gives her a headache and she needs to lie down afterwards. And btw, her testimony is awesome! She has a strong testimony.

So I think this is a separate issue and has nothing to do with how strong a testimony is.

I agree with this. When it comes to being introverted or extroverted it all comes down to recharging styles. Extroverts are recharged by being around people, while introverts are recharged by being alone. Being around a lot of people can be literally draining for introverts. And the church is very focused on extroversion, so it can be difficult for introverts to function "appropriately" in church as they are often not comfortable doing extroverted things. And it takes time for an introvert to get to a point where they feel comfortable.

I think seat saving can get over the top. And I think we do need to be more open to people who come and want to sit when we are saving a seat. There have been times where I have saved seats, but usually it is because my family member had to get up (often to take care of a child) and will be coming back once they are done.

However, I do agree that taking offense from being told not to sit down is a bit over the top, if it had been me, considering that I am also a very shy person, I would probably have gone and sat in the foyer for sacrament meeting. And would have gone home afterward. I don't much like conflicts with people and that would have probably been enough for me to not want to run into the person later that day.

[Elgama]

[quote name=Suzie;522720

You are focusing on the person who says to another that the seat is reserved (and that they should be welcoming' date=' kind, etc...) Oh yes, I agree and I am focusing on the person receiving that message because in the end, the person receiving that message is the one that has the issue (took offense) and the one that needs to move on.

Actually I think both have an issue. Should we be offended NO, but the OP is right she was treated badly. Yes she should move on, but I personally object when people say I am not my brother's keeper. Both perspectives are wrong.

[Suzie]

To you, it's just a seat. To someone else, it is being snubbed or not welcomed. Two different perspectives.

Hmmm I am not sure if you completely see the moral in Elder Bednar's talk or what I am trying to say....

It's simple: It does NOT matter whether the seat issue is silly or whether it is not (and the person feels not welcomed, etc). The POINT is that in BOTH perspectives, we do NOT have control over what people say or act BUT we DO have control on how WE react.

That's the point on Elder Bednar's talk that could be applied to most "I am offended" episodes.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Suzie
typo

[Suzie]

Actually I think both have an issue. Should we be offended NO, but the OP is right she was treated badly.

How was she treated badly? I fail to see this. She sees a purse in the middle row and she sits there (I would have personally ask anyone around if that seat is taken seeing that there is a purse in there but that's just me). So it's obvious to me that someone (or more) were sitting in that bench before she arrived, what is exactly the problem? Maybe the person in question just went to use the restroom with her small child and just want to return to her seat? How is it that informing someone the seat is reserved equal being "treated badly"?

[ryanh]

Maybe my skin is too thick but I just cannot comprehend why I would leave a meeting just because someone tells me the seat I want is "reserved"?. Now if the person who tells me that is being very rude about it, etc then I totally understand, other than that I am puzzled.

It's called empathy and compassion. Some people have a knack for it, some don't - just like some are sensitive to rejection, and it doesn't phase others. We each have our challenges, and ought to seek to walk a mile in another's shoes before telling them how they should feel.

Not everyone is at the point of being ready to grab hold of Elder Bednar's advice and make it part of their life. We are all at our own place of personal progress in this life, and no one should be made to feel inferior because they are not as far along, as strong as, or as secure as another.

Can you possibly accept that a recent divorce, no stability in wards, and who knows what else leaves another person in a situation that you simply don't understand at this point? (and then drop it already? your point is well understood)