US Deficits With and Without Iraq War

[Just_A_Guy]

Food for thought . . .

(Story here).

(Edit: Actually, it's here)

Edited August 23, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Wingnut]

(Story here).

The link only goes to the graph.

[hordak]

The link only goes to the graph.

Haven't you heard, A pictures worth a thousand words.

[MarginOfError]

Is it wrong that I have a hard time taking any graph seriously when it's made in Excel? It just sort of makes me wonder if the person who made the graph really knows what he or she is doing.

:smug, condescending emoticon:

[Just_A_Guy]

The link only goes to the graph.

Fixed.

[Just_A_Guy]

Is it wrong that I have a hard time taking any graph seriously when it's made in Excel? It just sort of makes me wonder if the person who made the graph really knows what he or she is doing.

:smug, condescending emoticon:

MOE, you of all people should know that what's important isn't the statistics; it's the way they're presented.

[Wingnut]

Is it wrong that I have a hard time taking any graph seriously when it's made in Excel? It just sort of makes me wonder if the person who made the graph really knows what he or she is doing.

:smug, condescending emoticon:

Oh, quit heckling the amateurs.

[Moksha]

MOE, you of all people should know that what's important isn't the statistics; it's the way they're presented.

Good point. It is obvious that huge savings would accrue if the war was ended, but that graph does not depict it as such. Its almost an enticement to continue with a small money pit.

[bytor2112]

Good point. It is obvious that huge savings would accrue if the war was ended, but that graph does not depict it as such. Its almost an enticement to continue with a small money pit.

Savings???? Good one!! Politicians don't save...they spend and spend and spend...especially the current crew!

[HoosierGuy]

Is it wrong that I have a hard time taking any graph seriously when it's made in Excel? It just sort of makes me wonder if the person who made the graph really knows what he or she is doing.

:smug, condescending emoticon:

I have a hard time taking these things serious until I verify the source. The webpage, according to wiki, is a conservative site. Therefor, I don't believe any of it. Just another attempt to make Bush look like a decent president.

[bytor2112]

I have a hard time taking these things serious until I verify the source. The webpage, according to wiki, is a conservative site. Therefor, I don't believe any of it. Just another attempt to make Bush look like a decent president.

Next to Obama...Carter looks like a decent President.

[Just_A_Guy]

The webpage, according to wiki, is a conservative site. Therefor, I don't believe any of it.

Yes, it's a conservative site; but if you had bothered to read the article you'd have seen that the numbers are drawn from the CBO (2009 data) and the Census Bureau (2003-2008 data).

Moreover, the cited costs of the Iraq war square with anti-war protesters' own numbers.

[MarginOfError]

I have a hard time taking these things serious until I verify the source. The webpage, according to wiki, is a conservative site. Therefor, I don't believe any of it. Just another attempt to make Bush look like a decent president.

That's right! All conservatives are liars, and all liberals are saints!

Do I smell hack?

[rubondfan2]

The actual numbers are less important to me than the constitutional implications to fighting the "war" in the first place. My rhetorical question here is can anyone demonstrate to me that we ever declared war against Iraq in keeping with the constitutional requirement for Congress to be authorized to allocate funds to the effort in the first place?

It disturbs me that "we" (Congressional leaders who do not have the best interests or even the hearts and minds of the people they are supposed to represent in view) will spend $3 trillion, $700 billion or even $1 on an action that was not constitutional to begin with.

[Just_A_Guy]

My rhetorical question here is can anyone demonstrate to me that we ever declared war against Iraq in keeping with the constitutional requirement for Congress to be authorized to allocate funds to the effort in the first place?

Congress did allocate funds to the war effort. Scads and scads of them.

The War Powers Clause is actually pretty vague; to the extent that Congress attempted to flesh it out through the War Powers Resolution in 1973, those provisions were observed in the case of the Iraq war. IIRC, war spending bills were passed by Congress pretty much annually.

If your argument is that we have to have the funding in place for a war before we actually go to war--I think you'll have a tough time finding any American war where Congress paid the bill for it before the bullets started flying.

There are a lot of good arguments to be made against the Iraq war, but I don't think "unconstitutionality" is one of them.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[mordorbund]

Good point. It is obvious that huge savings would accrue if the war was ended, but that graph does not depict it as such. Its almost an enticement to continue with a small money pit.

Small or large, the government should not even have a money pit. What makes America great is that each individual can make his or her own money pit of any size. My pit would be much larger if the government stopped taking my money and throwing it in their pit.

[rubondfan2]

If your argument is that we have to have the funding in place for a war before we actually go to war--I think you'll have a tough time finding any American war where Congress paid the bill for it before the bullets started flying.

No, this is not my argument at all. My argument is: 1) Actually declare war, which gives Congress the constitutional authority to authorize funds for the actual "war" effort and then 2) Authorize the funds needed to "win" the war with the full support of the American people who asked their congressional representatives to perform a declaration of war.

There are a lot of good arguments to be made against the Iraq war, but I don't think "unconstitutionality" is one of them.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Clearly you are trained in the law, so I will step away from getting into a tit for tat with you over the constitutionality of any of the so-called wars this nation has fought since the last official declaration of war we made back in 1945.

Eisenhower warned us against the dangers of establishing a military industrial complex following our "successful" exit from WWII. His words were almost as prophetic as those of any of our modern prophets given the degree to which this nation has fulfilled everything he so passionately warned against.

Admittedly, I am digressing from what I think was your original point in starting this thread, which was simply to call attention to the fact that the Iraq war may not have been as damaging to our overall fiscal picture as some may contend, and I respect that point. I have a passionate opinion about our nation building efforts, however, and am tooting my own politico-philosophical horn here. I'll stop now.

Based on what I have seen of your posts on other threads, you and I see pretty eye-to-eye on a lot of issues in my opinion. I respect your knowledge and your courage to state what you believe with such conviction.

rubondfan2

[Just_A_Guy]

The beauty--and the terror--of the Constitution is that ultimately, it still falls to the people to do the right thing.