How can you support boxing/ultimate fighting

[dash77]

I joined the church over 20 years ago and I remember the first time I met a member who liked watching the sport of boxing. I remember thinking how can a good Latter-Day Saint like such a sport – where the goal is really to inflict pain in others. I have recently noticed that some saints like ultimate fighting.

Although there are a physical aspect to others sports, such as football and hockey – the goal of boxing or ultimate fighting is to hurt another person. And although there are football or hockey players that will try to hurt someone – there are rules to prevent this (e.g., e.g., a football player can be banned for spearing someone with a helmet). It seems to me the main goal of boxing and extreme fighting is to hurt another person. The ultimate goal in hockey is to score and in football it is a touchdown – the crowd goes wild when the puck is in the net or a touchdown is scored. In boxing or ultimate fighting, the crowd goes wild when someone is lying unconscious, their brain is literally bleeding, blood comes out of a nose, and the person losses unconsciousness and sometimes the entire body spasms.

So, I would like to ask my Latter-Day Saints brothers/sisters who are boxing or ultimate fighting fans, how can you be supporting of these two sporting events and follow Latter-Day Saint values? I’m curious how you put this together.

[Gwen]

you seem to have your mind about them already made up so does it really matter why they like it? do you want to understand or convince them they are wrong?

[dash77]

I am trying to understand why people think they way they think. My main purpose is to understand. In the process, I am argue my postion -- but the main point is to understand how others think

[NeuroTypical]

the goal is really to inflict pain in others

No it isn't.

the goal of boxing or ultimate fighting is to hurt another person.

No it isn't.

It seems to me the main goal of boxing and extreme fighting is to hurt another person.

I understand it seems that way to you, but no, it really isn't.

I mean sure, there are those who enjoy watching people wail the heck out of each other. Some of these folks are LDS. If you wish to identify the difference between ideal lives fully following gospel principles, and folks you see at church, there are plenty of ways to do it besides singling out MMA/boxing fans. I don't find it a very useful pasttime though - much more useful to go look in the mirror and identify the differences in your own life.

But yeah, there are also those who are fans because they can admire technique, strength, ability, talent, etc. Some folks enjoy following someone's career through the ranks. Some folks like to identify with various athletes. Some folks watch the incredible fitness and conditioning in these matches, and are encouraged to keep on with their diet and exercise regime. These are all good things, right?

Also, think for a moment about the difference in being a fan, and supporting a sport. You can be one, without being the other.

LM

Edited September 17, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[bl8tant]

I can't answer for anyone else, but I became an MMA fan after I started learning Brazilian jiu-jitsu. It may not look like it to the untrained eye, but there's actually a lot of technique involved in an MMA bout. The goal is not to inflict pain on your opponent just to be mean, and so I don't have a problem with it. (But then I'm by no means qualified to act as an example for anyone else, so take my lack-of-problem with an appropriately-sized grain of salt.)

[john doe]

I'm not a big fan of those sports. Sometimes I will watch a boxing match if it involves a top fighter. I don't have a problem with boxing as a sport when it is regulated properly and corruption is not involved. MMA is slightly confusing to me, I don't care to watch it for very long, probably because I don't understand the rules. My impressions of Ultimate Fighting is that from an outsider's perspective, it seems brutish. The promoters seem to appeal to the violent and bloody aspects of the fighting, when that may not actually be the draw of a true fan of the sport. I sometimes wonder if, as a society, we are not slowly going the way of the ancient Romans, and that the ultimate end is gladiator-style fights to the death against other men or animals.

[dash77]

John:

I agree with what you have written. There is a violence separation between boxing and ultimate fighting (UF). UF is a blood sport and although I find both sports disgusting and can’t watch it because it goes against my LDS values – UF is much worse and it find societies acceptance of this sport extremely disturbing.

In regard to Loudmouth’s comments, there is clearly discipline and technique in both sports. No doubt about that. But the fans tend to go wild when someone is lying on the canvass bleeding – not when a good combination is thrown (in boxing) that does not inflict pain.

[bl8tant]

I'm not a big fan of those sports. Sometimes I will watch a boxing match if it involves a top fighter. I don't have a problem with boxing as a sport when it is regulated properly and corruption is not involved. MMA is slightly confusing to me, I don't care to watch it for very long, probably because I don't understand the rules. My impressions of Ultimate Fighting is that from an outsider's perspective, it seems brutish. The promoters seem to appeal to the violent and bloody aspects of the fighting, when that may not actually be the draw of a true fan of the sport. I sometimes wonder if, as a society, we are not slowly going the way of the ancient Romans, and that the ultimate end is gladiator-style fights to the death against other men or animals.

Thanks for drawing that distinction, JD. I think of Ultimate Fighting as barbaric: it is nothing more than violence for its own sake, with the most brutal participants winning the laurels. I contrast this with MMA, where there are rules and where brute force and aggression are not enough to win the day: you also must have solid technique and be able to come up with a strategy to overcome your opponent's strengths.

As for your point about us becoming like the Romans: I keep meaning to read Amusing Ourselves to Death but haven't yet. I think it might be relevant.

[NeuroTypical]

In regard to Loudmouth’s comments, there is clearly discipline and technique in both sports. No doubt about that. But the fans tend to go wild when someone is lying on the canvass bleeding – not when a good combination is thrown (in boxing) that does not inflict pain.

You're saying it's all "disgusting and can’t watch it because it goes against my LDS values". But the things you specifically identify, are crowd reaction that demonstrate values you don't hold, and a not-always-true assumption that "the purpose is to inflict pain".

So, you've been given an example of a fan who isn't reveling in bloodlust when he watches MMA, and some assertions about how in some areas, it really is about winning, demonstrating technique, conditioning, and ability - not inflicting pain.

I mean, don't watch it as much as you like - no problem with that. But it sounds like you're labeling all LDS fans of the stuff as going against their LDS values. That seems a tad unrighteous to me.

LM

[bl8tant]

I mean, don't watch it as much as you like - no problem with that. But it sounds like you're labeling all LDS fans of the stuff as going against their LDS values. That seems a tad unrighteous to me.

LM

And if you don't stop judging me like that I'm going to make you tap out.

[Guest]

I'm an MMA fan. My husband and 2 kids are in MMA school.

Sure, the purpose is to bring pain to the other person enough so he taps out then you win. It's not to bloody up the guy to a pulp! A marathon runner wins by being able to withstand pain. A football linesman wins by being able to withstand pain. A weight lifter wins by being able to withstand pain... name any sport, there's usually pain involved, yes, even in tennis. It is part of the sport to withstand pain.

Do you know that the prophet Joseph Smith played wrestling?

From Joseph, the Man and the Prophet

All of his life, Joseph Smith lived on the frontier, where men had to pit their brute strength against nature and sometimes against one another. He was a large man, strong and physically active. He delighted in competitive sports, including pulling sticks—a test of physical strength (see History of the Church, 5:302). Our archives contain many recollections of his wrestling with friends and acquaintances. On one Sabbath, he and Brigham Young preached to the Saints in Ramus, Illinois, about a day’s ride from Nauvoo. On Monday, before departing Ramus, Joseph matched his wrestling prowess against a man someone described as “the bully of Ramus” (see Joseph Smith Journal, 13 March 1843, recorded by Willard Richards, Joseph Smith Collection, LDS Church Archives). Joseph threw him. I am glad our current conference schedules do not provide the local members opportunity to test the visiting authorities in this manner.

MMA rules are quite strict. Just like boxing is. It is a competitive sport that pits one man's strength, stamina, and technique against the other.

Everyone should learn how to fight. There will come a time when you have to defend your family from man or nature. You will need to learn how to do so. Pitting your strength against another is going to train you to be better. You can't learn to use a gun unless you actually pull the trigger and shoot something. You can't learn to defend yourself unless you actually go against another guy on the mat. MMA is better than boxing in this because MMA is better as an all-around fighting technique, therefore, it is more practical.

So, how do you propose man learns how to fight - going on a street brawl? Nope, you do MMA (or whatever martial art you prefer) and combat where there are rules set for the safety of the players. That's what proper competition is about. That's why when UFC first came into being, sports leaders/senators quickly got control of the situation to establish certain rules to maintain civility in the sport.

There's this MMA fighter who got in a street brawl not too long ago because he witnessed a big man push a woman to the ground. He defended the woman and beat up the big man. Yes, a lot of the fans supported his actions but he still got in trouble with the MMA commission. That's how strict those guys are in making sure MMA remains a genuine competitive sport.

[dash77]

Anatess:

Do you really think that there will come a time when you will have to defend your family and will have to physically fight. When I was young and was a real punk, I started a few fights. Over 20 years ago after I joined the church, I have never been in a situation where I had to fight. Do you relly think every man should learn how to fight because every man will one day have to defend it. Where do you live? Is your husband constantly fighting off people?

A runner may cause pain to himself/herslef -- but he/she is not causing another person's brain to bleed. I do not see the analogy.

[pam]

I'm not sure I agree that everyone needs to learn to fight. I think it's wise to learn some self defense techniques should the need arise.

[NeuroTypical]

Do you really think that there will come a time when you will have to defend your family and will have to physically fight.

I know this was directed at Anatess, but if I may:

Pretty much anywhere you go in any city or town anywhere in the world, there exists a percentage of the population that, given the right circumstances, will attempt to do an innocent person harm for a variety of reasons. Some places are safer than others. Some places have more of these folks, some have less. But yes, running into one of these people is indeed a risk of living on planet earth. Ask any cop, LDS or otherwise, about the presence of dangerous people, and the threat to innocent people.

Also, there's a difference in preparing for the possibility, and thinking it is a certainty. Do you wear a seatbelt? Let's see how your statements fare:

Over 20 years ago after I joined the church, I have never been in a situation where I had to wear a seatbelt. Do you relly think every man should wear a seatbelt because every man will one day get in a crash. Where do you live? Is your husband constantly getting in crashes?

Sounds sort of goofy, I know, but hopefully you get the point. Learning to fight does not mean you expect a fight is a certainty.

To fully answer your question, I've been a member my whole life, and have only been in one fight. My wife was also born into the church, and she's witnessed fights, beatings, and even a shooting or two. She was living in Sandy, Utah during those times.

Our church has a fascinating history of people defending themselves, both physically and with firearms. John Moses Browning, who developed the automatic and semi-auto firearm, was Mormon. If you ever go to Nauvoo, you can see his father's restored gun shop, run as a museum. (Guns produced from that shop bore the label "Holiness to the Lord - Our Preservation.") Joseph Smith once expressed in a letter to a relative, his opinion that any man who wouldn't defend his family is a coward. Brigham Young advocated women owning firearms. Ezra Taft Benson said "There is wisdom ... in being preparing to defend our families".

Does any of this help?

LM

Edited September 21, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[dash77]

Loudmouth:

I agree with you that the LDS church has a history of violence and brutal persecution and it is a history that should never be forgotten. But sometimes I wonder if this history – coupled with fatalistic end of the world scenario – creates this intense fear aspect in members. I had a conversation the other day on the chat forum (this site) regarding handguns. The two other people who felt hand guns were needed were say things like in the last days or when the economy completely bottoms outwe will need guns to hunt for food or protect our food supplies. To me, the answer is faith in God, more so than guns. Although I deeply respect the thoughts of these other two people regarding guns, if the economy bottoms out, I think most animals will hunted within the first week and I believe we are to share our food supplies with others, not kill others to preserve our own children.

I sometimes think that our history of having brutal things happen to Joseph Smith and the early pioneers color our modern day perceptions that the world is more brutal than it is – which then initials a fear to be ready to fight at any time – be it guns or with our own hands. I think Pam made a really wise point about self defense and I can see taking boxing classes for fitness and the ability to throw a punch in self defense. But I sometimes think our history makes some members just a little too fearful and that make people do strange things, like acceptance blood sports or become fascinated in violent sports (or have lax gun laws)

[Guest]

Anatess:

Do you really think that there will come a time when you will have to defend your family and will have to physically fight. When I was young and was a real punk, I started a few fights. Over 20 years ago after I joined the church, I have never been in a situation where I had to fight. Do you relly think every man should learn how to fight because every man will one day have to defend it. Where do you live? Is your husband constantly fighting off people?

A runner may cause pain to himself/herslef -- but he/she is not causing another person's brain to bleed. I do not see the analogy.

Only a young uber-yuppy American can say something like this.

I grew up in the Philippines. My house has been robbed... twice. Our car has been nabbed... twice. My brother has been knifed... twice, jumped too many times to count. My uncle worked for Congress, we worked for my uncle. If you're Filipino, you know what that means. My uncle has been gunned down while in a van. Luckily survived without a bullet in him. I can't count how many times I've been caught in the middle of riots with only my uncle's bodyguards between me and the mob. Yes, my brothers learned martial arts when they were very young. I've never had to fight - my brothers and cousins were always there to fight for me. I won't be that lucky every time.

My husband grew up in San Diego close to Miramar in a school system where Mexican gangs rule. He learned to fight quick - he had to defend his bike from the Mexicans every day he goes home from school. No, he doesn't start fights. He learned to fight so he won't get beat up everyday - him and his older brother. He joined the wrestling team when he started high school. When he was 12 or so, his friend got shot in the head sitting next to him.

My husband's dad - he grew up in Pennsylvania back in the late 60's. He went to an all black school - he is blue-eyed blonde. He learned to fight really quick too. He got beat up most everyday in high school until he became a champion wrestler in varsity. Nobody messed with him then. About 15 or so years ago, his house got robbed. They weren't home. If he was home, that guy wouldn't be able to leave that house. He will go straight to jail.

Just last year - a friend of ours got a knife on her throat while trying to unhook the seatbelt of her young child in the back seat. The guy was obviously high as a kite - we weren't sure what he wanted, he didn't seem interested in her purse. She closed her eyes and said a prayer asking God to save her child. For some unknown reason, the guy took off taking nothing. Not all people will get off that easy.

I go to college. I can't even begin to tell you how many women in my college have gotten away from rapists. Some not so lucky.

My husband's brother works as a theft-prevention officer at the mall. I can't count how many times he has to run down a thief and use his wrestling skills to pin him down to the ground until the cops get there. There was this one time the thief got as far as the grass outside the mall and my brother-in-law pinned him down on the grass. The way he was positioned, his legs ended up on top of an ant pile. He is allergic to ant bites - he ended up in the ER but he got the thief.

Sure, you don't need to learn how to fight. I don't agree with that. It's like saying, sure, we don't need 1 year's worth of food and supplies. I don't agree with that either. I am a strong believer in emergency preparedness.

Martial Arts is a discipline. You don't learn it so you can start fights. You learn it so you can AVOID fights.

Edited September 21, 2010 by anatess

[dash77]

Anatess:

It sounds like you live in a really brutal community. I am sorry it has been so harsh for you. I am glad I asked where you lived, because it did not sound like anywhere I have lived in both the United States and Canada. I can see how in your community you would need to be ready to fight and possible kill.

[Dravin]

To me, the answer is faith in God, more so than guns.

Interesting how you imply a dichotomy when there isn't one.

[Guest]

Anatess:

It sounds like you live in a really brutal community. I am sorry it has been so harsh for you. I am glad I asked where you lived, because it did not sound like anywhere I have lived in both the United States and Canada. I can see how in your community you would need to be ready to fight and possible kill.

There's no such thing as a "safe" community. It is only safe until somebody gets mugged. Sure, you can say, glad it didn't happen to me. Right now, I live in the "good side" of town. Right. There were 2 murders in my side of town last year. One of the murders happened in a gated golf-course community - some young men knifed a 70-year-old man while he was in his garage. So, you tell me, you don't think it will ever happen to you. Sure, you're probably going to live to a ripe old age without having to witness one of these. And then maybe you won't. The point is - it happens. In this day and age.

MMA helps young men and women learn discipline, 1.) so they can defend themselves when needed, 2.) so they won't grow up as punks who knife old men in their garages!

[dash77]

Dravin:

yes, I have had many conversations with many members who clearly have fear and they rest it in the arm of oneself (buy guns) rather than in God. The binary aspects need to be unmaksed so that peolple can begin to seperate the connection between fear and guns with replacing fear with faith. I think its an important step toward awareness relevant to waht seems to be a gun obsession in the united States. It is dichotomy -- but one that needs to be doen in order to seperate confused thougths that covare do to fear.

[Dravin]

yes, I have had many conversations with many members who clearly have fear and they rest it in the arm of oneself (buy guns) rather than in God.

As LM pointed out, do you feel the same about those who fear and trust in their seatbelt rather than God? What about those who take their antidepressants instead of trusting in God to take care of their depression? Pneumonia?

You make me think of this talk: Healing the Sick

This part in particular:

When a person requested a priesthood blessing, Brigham Young would ask, “Have you used any remedies?” To those who said no because “we wish the Elders to lay hands upon us, and we have faith that we shall be healed,” President Young replied: “That is very inconsistent according to my faith. If we are sick, and ask the Lord to heal us, and to do all for us that is necessary to be done, according to my understanding of the Gospel of salvation, I might as well ask the Lord to cause my wheat and corn to grow, without my plowing the ground and casting in the seed. It appears consistent to me to apply every remedy that comes within the range of my knowledge, and [then] to ask my Father in Heaven … to sanctify that application to the healing of my body.”1

[Guest]

You must not have heard of the saying, "Do your best and God will do the rest."

So, this guy got shipwrecked and he prayed to God to save him. A ship passed by and asked him to come aboard, the guy says, "It's okay, God will save me.". A speedboat passed by and asked him to come aboard, the guy says, "It's okay, God will save me.". A rowboat passed by and asked him to come aboard, the guy says, "It's okay, God will save me.". Finally a shark came by and ate the man. So he asked God while at the Pearly Gates, "God, why didn't you save me?". And God replied, "I sent you 3 boats, stupid!"

[dash77]

Dravin:

I do not see how your analogy fits. If someone had depression they should use medications. This is a very real medical condition and there is a large body of knowledge that outlines that anti-depressants can be helpful. In regard to seat belts, there is a large body of research that this saves lives (just go and look at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration data – millions of lives have been saved). The reason Loudmouths’ analogy does not work is that I could present a large amount of research evidence that cleanly outlines that millions of people are being hurt and killed who do not wear seatbelts. This similarity does not fit the analogy.

But can you outline really good research evidence that outlines that boxing or ultimate fighting skills saved people? If we want to get into that debate, I know of multiple studies – including sport studies – that clearly outline that watching violent sports (like boxing) make people more violent. If we want to get into a dialogue, there is solid research that outlines that the lax aspect of gun laws is what contributes to killings (among many other factors). The analogy goes not fit.

Where is the research that guns will be needed to protect a food supply or that watching boxing or ultimate fighting helps people protect their food supplies?

I can understand anatess situation at face value. She lives in a really tough neighborhood where there really is violence and I can see how having fighting skills could help. In my original post I was foolish to not realize that there really are some rough and tumble places both in the united States and in other countries.

But this is really a far stretch from the average Joe that likes to watch ultimate fighting or boxing where in essence, two people literally beat their brains in. Why do you think the American Medical Association (AMA) has been trying to ban boxing for many, many years (see http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2002/07/08/hlsb0708.htm).?

The original question at hand was how can a person who makes covenants to act like the Savior watch a sport that is based on beating vital human organs – causing the kidneys or the brain to bleed -- that the AMA has been trying to shut down since 1983? And so far, it seem like the only answer provided is that one can watch these sports as a way to motivate themselves to learn how to fight so that in the future they would have better self-defense skills. This makes some sense to me – but do others really have to watch such sports in order to learn or be motivated to acquire self-defense skills?

In will also add that I think many if not most people who watch such sports are simply giving apetite to the natural man and then make rationalized excusses.

[Soulsearcher]

I guess one could then ask how can any good standing member watch any sport that has violent tendencies. I know Dash is a fan of hockey, so Dash, do you turn off the game when there is physical contact or do you keep watching. Hockey is known as a rather full contact sport so wouldn't it be easier to not watch the game than support the physical pain that can happen due to the physical nature of the game?

[dash77]

Yes, I am a hockey and football fan. And although there are some hockey and football players that want to hurt other players (e.g. a hockey fight), the goal of hockey is to score and when the puck is in the net the fans go wild. Fans go wild in ultimate fighting when someone is knocked out and bleeding from their ears. And although there are many fans that like the fights, I detest them and have advocated in differing arenas (e.g., minor hockey) to eliminate fighting, which is focus on hurting someone. I detest the fighting aspects of hockey and think they are ugly. When hockey players body check the goal is to knock the person off of the puck – not to injury them. It is not like boxing, where the goal is to cause the brain to bleed. So, I watch the game of hockey because of the enjoyment of the game – not for an explicitly action to hurt another person. Boxing and ultimate fighting, unlike many others sports (car racing, baseball, tennis) is at it core an activity that is explicit to cause bleeding to vital organs. And although this can happen in hockey by accident or purposeful on a players part – it is not an explicit aspect of the game.

Honestly, soul, I see this as a fundamental difference.