How can you support boxing/ultimate fighting

[dash77]

I just see alot of self-referecing from those who support boxing and UF fighting. Smokers can tell you alll sorts of benefits of smoking (e.g., relaxation) -- yet the AMA and the American Cancer Assocation have outline postion statemnts why it should be banned in public settings. The health/medical authority begins and ends within their own minds. Again, I have marshaled a dozen credible health/medical organizations who want to ban both sports that make a distiction between a contacrt sport and a blood sport. Until someone can show be a credible independent medical/health authrity that states otherwise, my postion is that these blood sports should be banned and they support those people who like violence.

[Guest]

I just see alot of self-referecing from those who support boxing and UF fighting. Smokers can tell you alll sorts of benefits of smoking (e.g., relaxation) -- yet the AMA and the American Cancer Assocation have outline postion statemnts why it should be banned in public settings. The health/medical authority begins and ends within their own minds. Again, I have marshaled a dozen credible health/medical organizations who want to ban both sports that make a distiction between a contacrt sport and a blood sport. Until someone can show be a credible independent medical/health authrity that states otherwise, my postion is that these blood sports should be banned and they support those people who like violence.

Dash77... HOW CAN YOU EXPECT US TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY WHEN YOU DON'T BOTHER TO READ ANYTHING WE SAY? Especially when you make SWEEPING generalizations that are OFFENSIVE.

I have told you MANY TIMES BEFORE... EVERY professional Mixed Martial Arts Fight in ANY STATE in the United States where MMA is legal REQUIRES a ringside physician who is licensed and of good standing. The physician requirement is also present in ANY BOXING match in the United States. This physician has the power to stop the fight at any time. In Florida, that physician would be a member of the Florida Medical Association.

The UNIFIED RULES OF MIXED MARTIAL ARTS (that I have posted on this thread before) is the DE FACTO rules in the USA. The UFC (the most popular MMA organization) uses those rules. EVERY STATE uses those rules in addition to other state-specific rules in their Senate Bills that govern the sport.

If you don't believe me... READ THIS ENTIRE CHAPTER FROM THE FLORIDA CONSTITUTION. It clearly states the cooperation between the MMA sport and the Medical Field. They can't be separated. Pay special attention to section 548.046.

Now, if you want to remain prejudiced, we can't do anything about it. It is sad when you have the power to vote to ban other people from doing things you don't agree with yet refuse to study the topic.

Hey, I don't like tattoos on people's faces either. Let's ban it! Stupid statement.

Edited October 21, 2010 by anatess

[dash77]

Anatess:

I guess I could flip your last post around. Here it goes:

Anatess... HOW CAN YOU EXPECT ME TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY WHEN YOU DON'T BOTHER TO READ ANYTHING I SAY? Especially when you make SWEEPING generalizations that are OFFENSIVE.

I have told you MANY TIMES BEFORE... the American medical Association and eleven other medical authorities have called for a ban against boxing and UF fighting.

[Tarnished]

Anatess,

The link is broken, or rather it does not save what you have looked up on the Florida constitution website. The fact this has not been brought up yet pretty much proves the point you were trying to make in your post.

[Tarnished]

Anatess:

I guess I could flip your last post around. Here it goes:

Anatess... HOW CAN YOU EXPECT ME TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY WHEN YOU DON'T BOTHER TO READ ANYTHING I SAY? Especially when you make SWEEPING generalizations that are OFFENSIVE.

I have told you MANY TIMES BEFORE... the American medical Association and eleven other medical authorities have called for a ban against boxing and UF fighting.

The problem though is that we do, or rather I have. I have read everything you have posted and have even looked up things ON MY OWN to see if what you are saying is correct. I have not demanded that you prove things to me to change my mind. And yet much has been provided to you. I have read articles you have linked, and looked into what the medical associations have said, I have done searches to see if what you are saying is correct. And every time I have done so I have not been convinced, I have found that the medical associations you mentioned came to the conclusion to ban on a split vote. I have found that there are and were medical professionals that argued against the ban and that this is based on the fact that the research that the ban was based on was old research and not done on recent fights or fight standards.

As I have mentioned to you before I tend to try to see things from both sides. I have looked deeply into your side and have come to the conclusion that I still agree with my side of things. I don't know how much research you have put in to the MMA side of things. I do know you have attended some fights, but other than that I don't know how much you have looked into safety standards, or looked into what different medical professionals say who are pro-MMA. From your arguements it does not seem like you have done much of this.

[Bini]

MMA is about competing with technique and skill. Hubby and I are huge UFC supporters.

[dash77]

Tarnished:

The reply you are replying too was directed at Anatess and I was simply paralleling a reply to outline the craziness of it. I can see it work with you —because you have outlined the craziness of my post.

Tarnished, I have always appreciated your thoughts on this subject and others because of what you have outlined – you work through the process. I think I have been reciprocal – I have asked you to send me additional information – such as when you suggested that BYU was supporting UF and boxing (which they have not). And I did change my mind on how UF and boxing can be helpful to learn for self-defense – I just do not see how self-defense is enhanced by attending these events. I think you can still learn enough self-defense by sparring with others and do not need to watch fights to learn more about self defense.

I am glad you have done your homework and found information like split votes. However, there will always be dissenters when policy statements are created by credible organizations, like the American Medical Association (an organization we love when we have serious illness, like cancer, but one we dislike and think is a fraud when their positions does not align to ours). It still stands, these 12 medical/health organizations have called for a ban on boxing and UF because it is a blood sport.

[FunkyTown]

Apparently, Paul was a boxing fan. Who knew?

LDS.org - Liahona Article - The Game of Life

*munches on popcorn* So... Dash.

Dasherino.

The Dashmeister.

You, uh... You seem to be saying that Paul was wrong. That he was in to savage bloodsports.

That pretty well sum up your thoughts on the matter from a biblical apostle? Just so I can confirm?

I am glad you have done your homework and found information like split votes. However, there will always be dissenters when policy statements are created by credible organizations, like the American Medical Association (an organization we love when we have serious illness, like cancer, but one we dislike and think is a fraud when their positions does not align to ours). It still stands, these 12 medical/health organizations have called for a ban on boxing and UF because it is a blood sport.

[dash77]

Funky Town:

You are making what is known as the wishful thinking fallacy – which is making the faulty assumption that because we wish X were true (or false), that X (Paul Dunn’s article) is indeed true (not false).

If you read the article Paul Dunn clearly writes about the purpose, which is to use” . . . the vocabulary of the athlete to urge his listeners to apply the gospel into their lives and particularly to show them the importance of self-discipline and self-denial.”

You are completely using this article outside of its intended purpose or context. Paul or Paul Dunn is not supporting certain feats he is using them for the symbolic language of discipline toward gospel rules.

The thing I worry about in your reply is that you are trying to use scriptures/modern day counsel to serve your person view (which might be associated with the natural man), rather than using scriptures and information to make a decision regarding how to follow gospel principles and act as Christ would want you to act. Part of being a Latter-Day Saint is to put off our natural tendencies and let gospel principles guide our behaviors.

[Tarnished]

Tarnished:

The reply you are replying too was directed at Anatess and I was simply paralleling a reply to outline the craziness of it. I can see it work with you —because you have outlined the craziness of my post.

Tarnished, I have always appreciated your thoughts on this subject and others because of what you have outlined – you work through the process. I think I have been reciprocal – I have asked you to send me additional information – such as when you suggested that BYU was supporting UF and boxing (which they have not). And I did change my mind on how UF and boxing can be helpful to learn for self-defense – I just do not see how self-defense is enhanced by attending these events. I think you can still learn enough self-defense by sparring with others and do not need to watch fights to learn more about self defense.

I am glad you have done your homework and found information like split votes. However, there will always be dissenters when policy statements are created by credible organizations, like the American Medical Association (an organization we love when we have serious illness, like cancer, but one we dislike and think is a fraud when their positions does not align to ours). It still stands, these 12 medical/health organizations have called for a ban on boxing and UF because it is a blood sport.

The problem is you are relying on me to prove to you things I know to be true. But you are not willing to prove those things to yourself. I could call up BYU and ask them for a more detailed description of their Martial Arts course, but it would mean nothing for me to do so, because you obviously do not believe anything I have to say. Which is fine. But if you want to claim that I am wrong about something then please prove me wrong first, call up BYU and prove that I am completely wrong about the course. (By the way, I said nothing about boxing and BYU)

When it comes to this topic it reminds me a good deal about book banning. I may read a book that I find to be uplifting and edifying and you may read the same book and find it to be foul and be of the opinion that no one should ever read it. Going out of your way to find a way to ban that book results in me not being able to have as much access to a book I find to be good. People have banned books for many years for many reasons. For example, when "Uncle Tom's Cabin" first came out it was banned because the way it portrayed African Americans was seen as "too favorable", now it is banned because it is seen to portray African Americans in a racist light. People can go out of their way to find bad things in anything, that does not mean that those bad things are there.

You keep throwing Medical Associations at me, and I have shown that they were not basing their decision on relevant research and that they were not unanimous in their decision. You keep claiming that someone who is trying to be Christ like would never follow something as barbaric as MMA, and yet that is purely your opinion. It is like me saying that no true LDS member would ever drink anything with caffeine as it is against the word of wisdom. The problem is, that would be purely my opinion. There has been nothing said by any General Authorities that has banned members from caffeine. Similarly there has been nothing said by any General Authority that has banned members from MMA. Thus it comes down to our personal decision on whether we want to have either thing in our life.

It all comes down to this: You may not understand where I am coming from and why I choose to be a fan of MMA, you may choose to have nothing to do with it, that is your choice. I do understand where you are coming from regarding MMA, but I don't agree with your views on the matter, I may choose to still be a fan of MMA, that is my choice.

You have mentioned before that our choices often effect others. My choice to support MMA may have the effect to encourage others to get into the sport, it may help the sport to continue. I have no problem with that, that is my choice. Your choice to support banning MMA may have the effect of making it difficult or impossible for fighters who train in this form of Martial Arts to compete and improve their skills in a hobby of their choice. You obviously have no problem with this, that is your choice.

[dash77]

You keep throwing Medical Associations at me, and I have shown that they were not basing their decision on relevant research and that they were not unanimous in their decision.

Tarnished:

We just have a fundamental disagreement. In my mind, these eleven medical authorities -- which are made up of people who have solid educational credentials (of MD's and Ph.D's) -- find UF and boxing to be unusually dangerous and a blood sport that is distict and different than contact sports. I have marshaled evidence and until you can outline to me another groupings of medical organizations of the same standards -- we will have to agree to disagree. I really do not mean this to sound mean, but if I have to choose between your view or eleven medical authorities, in my mind these eleven authorities are more credible.

And if you do not thnk these medical authories who granted medical licensure are quacks, then do not go to them when you have a serious issue, like cancer or a broken femur.

With this said, tarnsihed, we will just have to agree to disagree on this subject. However, I have found you to be a really intelligent person and I admire your tenaciousness in this discussion (and in other areas, we are in alignment).

[NeuroTypical]

IMO, looking to someone with 'educational credentials (of MD's and Ph.D's)' to moralize about how the real world should work, can be a really useless and frustrating exercise.

Anyway:

Partially due to this thread, my wife and I are heading off to the local Krav Maga joint to see about increasing our level of physical ability. I've spent a long time looking for the right MA, and this might be what we're looking for. From wikipedia:

Generally, there are no rules in Krav Maga, as it is a defense fighting technique which is not regulated, but utilized to keep the user safe and incapacitate the opponent by any means necessary. Men and women generally undergo the same drills. It has no sporting federation, and there are no official uniforms or attire, although some organizations do recognize progress through training with rank badges, different levels, and belts.

General principles include:

* Counter attacking as soon as possible (or attacking preemptively).

* Targeting attacks to the body's most vulnerable points such as the eyes, jaw, throat, groin, knee etc.

* Neutralizing the opponent as quickly as possible by responding with an unbroken stream of counter attacks and if necessary a take down/joint break.

* Maintaining awareness of surroundings while dealing with the threat in order to look for escape routes, further attackers, objects that could be used to defend or help attack and so on.

I'll let y'all know how it works out. Edited October 25, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Tarnished]

Sounds like a very interesting and promising MA, I look forward to hearing how it turns out for your family. I know my husband and myself are planning on getting involved in some form (or many forms) of Martial Arts once we are both in better shape and have kids we can take to train as well.

[FunkyTown]

The thing I worry about in your reply is that you're ignoring scriptures/modern day counsel entirely to serve your person view(Which might be associated with the natural man), rather than using humility to accept that if the church doesn't condemn boxing then maybe you're in the wrong.

Ultimately, I feel that you have a narrow world-view and are seeking to impose your own will upon others without recognizing the benefits inherent in sports that require we go beyond ourselves and reach a little bit further. You see the actions without the intent behind them and end up losing the forest for the trees in your blanket condemnation, which is a very pharisaical viewpoint.

Funky Town:

You are making what is known as the wishful thinking fallacy – which is making the faulty assumption that because we wish X were true (or false), that X (Paul Dunn’s article) is indeed true (not false).

If you read the article Paul Dunn clearly writes about the purpose, which is to use” . . . the vocabulary of the athlete to urge his listeners to apply the gospel into their lives and particularly to show them the importance of self-discipline and self-denial.”

You are completely using this article outside of its intended purpose or context. Paul or Paul Dunn is not supporting certain feats he is using them for the symbolic language of discipline toward gospel rules.

The thing I worry about in your reply is that you are trying to use scriptures/modern day counsel to serve your person view (which might be associated with the natural man), rather than using scriptures and information to make a decision regarding how to follow gospel principles and act as Christ would want you to act. Part of being a Latter-Day Saint is to put off our natural tendencies and let gospel principles guide our behaviors.

[dash77]

Funky town:

Either you are misinterpreting the context of my last thread (as you did with Paul Dunn’s article) or you are trying to be cute by using parallelism in a completely dysfunctional manner.

Throughout this thread I have used the American Medical Association and eleven other medical authorities to outline that (1) UF and boxing should be banned, and (2) the difference between a blood sport and contact sport. Locating twelve differing sources (and others in this thread) does not suggest narrowness, if anything it suggest broad-mindedness. And because these highly respected medical organizations have outlined the unique and dangerous aspects of these two blood sports, then as LDS I think we should not support them.

I did not always beleive this -- but what I try to do is learn more about a subject area and then try to align my behaviors to it -- the best that I can, knowing that I am a sinner like everyone else. I do not mean to condemn, I just have not found a compelling reason to not think these are blood sports.

[Tarnished]

And because these highly respected medical organizations have outlined the unique and dangerous aspects of these two blood sports, then as LDS I think we should not support them.

Because everything the AMA publishes agrees completely with our beliefs as LDS members. Like this article they published in their journal about how Oral sex does not actually constitute sex. JAMA -- Would You Say You "Had Sex" If . . . ?, January 20, 1999, Sanders and Reinisch 281 (3): 275

So obviously if this well respected medical association says that this is so then as good LDS members we should believe what they have to say. We can now safely have oral sex without worrying that we are breaking the law of chastity because it is not actually sex. (insert sarcasm)

The problem is though the AMA and many other medical associations have very good views on certain medical proceedures and medical views they are basing their views on the learnings of man. I have heard that there are medical experts who say that a glass of wine a day is good for you because of the antioxidents you recieve from consumption. Just because a medical association claims something does not mean that they are right. Just because they prove they are right about one thing does not mean they are right about everything. Thus when it comes to things medical associations come out with I will read what they have to say but take it with a grain of salt and do my own research to see if I agree with them.

[dash77]

Tarnished:

I’m guessing it might be time for both of us to simply agree to disagree. This thread could just keep going on and on.

With that said, let me add that the article you provided is a research article submitted by a researcher. It is not a policy statement from the organization. The ban on UF and boxing is an actual policy statement made by the upper administration of the AMA (usually the best and brightest). The article you are submitting is a single research study and although it has some merit – it is not an actual policy statement calling for a ban. There is a big difference.

Can we agree to disagree?

[Tarnished]

We can definately agree to disagree, however as long as you do continue to argue your point on this thread I will still probably continue to argue my point as well. It is probably best if the arguement part of this thread just stop as I think my arguements for my views pretty well cover the views of people for MMA and your views for people against MMA are pretty well covered by your points.

[dash77]

Tarnished:

Agreed!!! We could both just go on and on and on. I prefer we simply agree to disagree.

[FunkyTown]

PS: Dash - Here's a study on boxing that says 'We don't know how dangerous it is. The amount of brain damage we found compared to non-boxers is statistically insignificant.'

Heidelberg Boxing Study

And this wasn't between boxers and football players. It was between boxers and people who don't box. Period. No attempt to compare sports was done.

Now you can go back to loving Boxing.

You're welcome.

[echegollen]

No it isn't.

Also, think for a moment about the difference in being a fan, and supporting a sport. You can be one, without being the other.

LM

I think it is impossible to be a fan of a sport without supporting it. If you are a fan, you will obviously watch the sport. If you watch the sport, you boost the viewer number. If you boost the viewer number, the sport will make more profit. If the sport makes more profit, it will keep expending. If this is not supporting a sport, I wonder what it is.

[echegollen]

I really think it is too bad that this thread has stopped! This is definitely a good debat considering the fact that MMA is the fastest growing sport in America. Thus this importance to know the position we should take as LDS in regards to MMA.

I have read some very good arguments from both sides (pro mma vs against mma). I am a huge MMA fan myself. I do believe that MMA teaches self-discipline, hard work, dedication, high skills, self-defense and is very good to stay in shape. I wish the church had a clearer position on that sport just like for poker. We all know that modern day prophets have warned us against gambling. But it is not as clear for MMA.

Here is a quote from the Strength of the Youth Pamphlet:

Do not attend, view, or participate in entertainment

that is vulgar, immoral, violent, or pornographic in any

way. Do not participate in entertainment that in any way

presents immorality or violent behavior as acceptable.

...

Depictions of violence often glamorize vicious

behavior. They offend the Spirit and make you less able

to respond to others in a sensitive, caring way. They

contradict the Savior’s message of love for one another.

Violence seems to be the key word here. But what really is the meaning of violence exactly? Here is a definition I have found on the net (there are many more):

1. Behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

When someone is competing in MMA, do you think his "intent" is to HURT, DAMAGE, or KILL? I believe the majority doesn't want to KILL. Do they want to HURT/DAMAGE the opponent? They will obviously look for the KO, but they don't necessarily want to injure the opponent. Again, it depends who is the fighter. I know that the famous MMA fighter "Georges Rush St-Pierre" said that before each fights, he prays God so that nobody gets serious injury...

When you read the book of Mormon, I think everybody agrees that there is a lot of violence in it. However, according to Joseph Smith, this book will brings us closer to God that any other book. Thus, because something has some violence in, it doesn't necessarily make it bad...

[Wingnut]

I really think it is too bad that this thread has stopped!

The thread went on for 12 pages before you brought it back up...twice. Not much is typically left to be said in a thread that has already gone on for 12 pages.

[NeuroTypical]

If you are a fan, you will obviously watch the sport. If you watch the sport, you boost the viewer number. If you boost the viewer number, the sport will make more profit. If the sport makes more profit, it will keep expending. If this is not supporting a sport, I wonder what it is.

I'm a fan of MMA, BYU/Utah football, professional golf, tennis, texas hold-em tourneys, and NRA pistol competitions. I watch clips on YouTube, I watch the TV, read coverage from public sources online, and talk about it with other fans. I've never boosted any viewer number. Never done pay-per-view. Or bought a ticket. Or bought or rented a DVD from Netflix. Or bought fan stuff from vendors. I've never paid anyone one thin dime to view or discuss any of that.

So yeah, I'm a textbook case of the difference in being a fan, and supporting a sport. And I don't think I'm the only one out there.

[echegollen]

Loudmouth,

You think because you never paid anyone a dime to anyone you are not supporting something?

When you watch a certain sport on TV or read coverage online, you are supporting the sport. It doesn't have to be pay-per-view. The more people watch a particular program on TV, the more you'll see it on TV. If nobody ever watched Monday night football, do you think they would still broadcast it on the TV?

When you talk about it with other fans, you also contribute to the increase popularity of the sport. If a fan could never talk to another fan, he would probably not stay a fan for too long. Fan boost each other, just like members of the church strengthen each other.

You influence those around you, family & friends. If you watch a certain sport, chances are that they will follow your example, thus creating more fans.

You really don't have to give money away to support something. By watching it, doing it, talking positively about it, you are defenitely supporting it.