Missionaries at the door!

[Wingnut]

I am meeting with them next week, so I guess that's a good sign. I decided I'll shut up and let them talk. I might learn something.

Don't be afraid to ask questions, but you're right in that they probably did have a specific lesson planned to share with you. Just find a better balance.

[Dravin]

Well, the missionaries came and we had a nice chat. Or actually, 1 missionary and 1 local church member came. They asked if I had questions - which was when I remembered to print out my list. : ) I may have thrown them off their game a bit with all the questions as I got the feeling there is a set lesson or something they wanted to do.

Generally the first lesson is something rather set. Which makes sense as they aren't familiar with people right out of the gate. So a printed list can throw them off for two main reasons:

1) There is a certain pressure to answer them right away. Some questions take either research on the Missionaries' part or background information on yours. Questions that come up in the flow of teaching generally have the advantage of context to them and tend to respond better to, "Well talk about that next lesson."

2) The list of questions thing is something people out to disprove the missionaries do. So they may have had to fight down a reflexive response. Also, lists of questions can be inherently intimidating. Means the other person is prepared for the specifics but you are not (see #1).

As I mentioned in one of my early posts, I had doubts about a young person giving me the depth of information I want. I think I got good answers from the church member. The missionary did defer to the other young man's knowledge sometimes, but I didn't find it to be the problem that I thought it might be. We all have to start somewhere.

Generally Missionaries like to team up with 'normal' members for exactly that reason. When you are 20 years old it is hard to identify on a personal level with many things. Bringing a member along who can identify helps. If you liked the member specifically ask if he can come next time.

Edited October 17, 2010 by Dravin

[jayanna]

My hubby always had a list of 10+ questions when the elders came. There was a missionary who was as well versed in the Bible as my hubby, which was good, b/c he insisted that all the answers came from the Bible. It was the only source he had a testimony of.

That young man rattled of scripture quotes like you would not believe. I would not underestimate their gospel knowledge, especially considering they study it for hours more per day than I studied my pre-med classes, and I'm Phi Beta Kappa.

[dahlia]

So, I met with them a 2nd time. Due to a physical limitation I have right now, I asked to meet them in my office as I have a difficult time walking. I was a little afraid of my peers seeing the missionaries and asking questions, but when we got back to 'faculty row,' no one was there. And yes, I realize there's something wrong with being embarrassed to be seen with missionaries. I'm working on why I feel that way with my peers; I wouldn't have been embarrassed if I'd been able to meet in a restaurant as planned.

I brought some magazines for the wife of the church member who comes along. I know what it's like to be a couple living on, in our case, VA benefits, with a kid and little disposable income. Next time, I will see what else I can do - the wife is at home in student housing with a baby all day. I'm sure she'd like to get out or get some recreational materials that she doesn't have to pay for.

We talked about the Plan for Salvation and some questions I had about my reading in the BOM. We also talked about my need to start praying. I'm going to work on that.

It strange how things happen, just the day before I was explaining some things about Mormonism to someone who wasn't hostile, but had some typical misguided notions and a lot of ignorance about the religion. I had to ask myself how I got in the position of defending/explaining Mormonism and I'm not even Mormon!

[beefche]

It strange how things happen, just the day before I was explaining some things about Mormonism to someone who wasn't hostile, but had some typical misguided notions and a lot of ignorance about the religion. I had to ask myself how I got in the position of defending/explaining Mormonism and I'm not even Mormon!

That's how we suck you in! Mwuahahaha!

[beefche]

dahlia, that is very kind of you to think of the wife and ways to help her.

And thanks for keeping us updated. No matter what happens, we love hearing about your journey.

[dahlia]

So, another meeting, this time at my place and with the missionaries (one was a newbie) joined by a young couple. It turns out the couple just bought the house behind me! The husband is a PhD student and we had a good chat about the uni, academic jobs, etc. Even though I've been here for a few years, I don't really know a lot of people outside of work, so it was nice to meet some neighbors. The wife works from home and has a toddler, so I'm sure she's happy to meet somebody new people as well. I'm home a lot, so it would be nice to know someone who has free time during the day to do things. They told me a lot about the local church - the type of people in the congregation, it's 'feel,' etc.

Anyway, we discussed the Plan of Salvation, complete with diagram from the young missionary. I think they need to have 2 versions of their lessons. It's not like I never read the Bible, or don't know biblical history. I think it's one thing to talk to someone who's completely unfamiliar with basic Christianity and the bible and someone who attended parochial school for 12 yrs and then had college level work in comparative religion. I sat there because I figured this is how they learned how to present the material, but it was a little elementary.

I'm not sure how to address this in the future. I wanted to tell them to 'move on, I know that part,' but I know sometimes people have problems if they can't make the presentation the way the planned it. I'd done a lot of reading about Mormonism in the academic and popular press before I met the missionaries and would like to get into some intellectually deeper discussions, but I feel trapped listening to stuff that sounds like Sunday school for the kids.

Don't get me wrong, I think they are nice guys and they are doing their best, but I'd also like something more. Plus, what can I say - they are like young college guys to me - I want to make them dinner and make a plate for them to take back home. : )

Still, it was very pleasant - the young couple had both been missionaries and they sure knew their scripture! My son came home in time to meet them, which I think he needed to do so he could see what kind of people his mom's been hanging around with.

So, that's my report for this week. I'd just like to add that you folks sure are happy, aren't you? : )

[Dravin]

I think they need to have 2 versions of their lessons. It's not like I never read the Bible, or don't know biblical history. I think it's one thing to talk to someone who's completely unfamiliar with basic Christianity and the bible and someone who attended parochial school for 12 yrs and then had college level work in comparative religion. I sat there because I figured this is how they learned how to present the material, but it was a little elementary.

By all means explain such to them if you haven't already. Ask them if you can give them a quick overview of your understanding about the material they wanted to teach and ask them to point out anything you may have missed or they feel impressed to discuss. You have to keep in mind the purpose of the Missionaries is to preach the basics of the gospel, not to enter into deep intellectual discussion*. You best bet is to talk with some of those members in addition to the lessons. Also, the lessons are the natural segue into the commitments they give people. Thing is once they understand where you are in understanding the gospel they should be tailoring the lessons to you.

One problem may be the Missionaries are looking at this as a spiritual exercise, you seem to be looking at it as an intellectual exercise (with elements of the spiritual).

* Look around the boards, when members tend to go intellectual in Gospel discussion there is a lot of speculation that gets bandied about that may not be true and certainly isn't doctrine. That is not something the Church wants its missionaries engaging in.

P.S. Don't know if you have been linked to this or not but Preach My Gospel is their guide book for how to teach lessons (and be good missionaries) and what the minimum content of the lessons should be/minimum understanding an investigator should have.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Dravin
Wow, that got butchered in my multiple edits.

[Wingnut]

Dahlia, you can certainly invite the missionaries over for dinner. LDS members frequently host the missionaries during the week. They're 19-year-old boys -- do you expect them to cook for themselves!? :) Make arrangements in advance, though, so that they don't have other dinner plans on the same evening. A dinner visit might be a good opportunity for you to review to them what you're already familiar with. But like Dravin said, you're approaching these visits intellectually, they're doing it spiritually. There needs to be a balance.

[jayanna]

Well, sounds like you had a great visit.

Yes, the plan of salvation lesson seems very elementary, but wait. I just learned something in the temple about 2 weeks ago about it that blew my mind. I should have known it, but never really thought about it, because it just seemed so easy.

That feeling of wanting to mother the missionaries, I had it too, big time. I kept asking them if they needed socks or milk or something. lol

Yes, we are happy. Generally speaking, unless there is something going extremely wrong, we are happy and love to share the happy. Some people find this annoying, some are paranoid about it. We really are happy though, even when no one is looking. :)

Let us know how the next discussion goes

[Jamie123]

.I'm not sure how to address this in the future. I wanted to tell them to 'move on, I know that part,' but I know sometimes people have problems if they can't make the presentation the way the planned it. I'd done a lot of reading about Mormonism in the academic and popular press before I met the missionaries and would like to get into some intellectually deeper discussions, but I feel trapped listening to stuff that sounds like Sunday school for the kids.

I felt exactly the same way when I was an investigator. Having been brought up in the English school system (which in the 1970s was distinctly Church of England), having been to church for years and CU while at university, it seemed odd to be taught "from scratch" about Jesus Christ and Salvation. But I've since learned there are some deep pitfalls in assuming you know the basics already. Mormonism, though similar to traditional Christianity in many ways, is sublty different in some unexpected places. I think the best policy when approaching Mormonism is to temporarily forget everything you think you already know about Christianity and learn from the "bottom up".

[LDSVALLEY]

Glad you enjoyed it for the most part.

One thing to realize is that even long term members who have a grasp of the basics over time end up remembering the doctrine incorrectly. People investigating the church and new members attend Gospel Principle's class which teach the basics of the Gospel, generally they stay in that class for a year while the other adult members attend Gospel Doctrine which is a Sunday School that digs into the scriptures far more.

The third class is separate Priesthood and Relief Society classes where twice a month we had been learning from a manual in the President of the Church series. Due to issues with the understanding of the basic doctrine they have stopped this and switched us to the Gospel Principle manual for the next two years.

Also I used to teach the Gospel Principle class and even after the third time through the book I was still coming to more fully understand the Basic Principles. Often when we are faced with what seems like non challenging information we tune it out. Instead focus on it and find the little subtle kernels that we normally miss, it can alter what we think we understand.

[dahlia]

Well, I finally went to church. I thought I was used to children in church (no nurseries in Catholic churches when I was growing up), but I guess I wasn't. There was so much noise from the little kids I felt bad for the speakers, although I guess they are used to it. We had an excellent speaker on gratitude. I forget his position, but I understand he rotates through the wards. I look forward to hearing him the next time he's around. The choir did a nice special selection.

I decided to take the Sacrament and was a little amused that it was actually bread instead of a wafer or 'host' as Catholics call it - I didn't see the boys tearing up the bread at the front. I thought it was a little different and maybe not respectful at first, but then I thought that Jesus didn't have any specially made wafers at the Last Supper. Why shouldn't the people have the people's bread for the Sacrament?

Because of my current physical limitations, I thought I wouldn't stay longer than the service, but surprised myself by being able to sit through the lesson class. I forget what this is called. We watched a video on the restored gospel which was pretty much a life of Joseph Smith up to where his father was baptized. I think a lot of people struggle with the whole Joseph Smith thing, but if you believe that saints, angels, and God visited people (and these kind of visitations are common in the Catholic church), then why not Joseph Smith? Anyway, the class wasn't as onerous as I thought it might be. Besides, who doesn't like a video instead of schoolwork?

Then on Monday, I went to family night with my neighbors and the family of the law student who's been visiting with me. They both have little kids, which I'm not used to anymore, but it was pretty nice with singing, a lesson, general gabbing and a snack. As with most get-togethers, the men went off in one direction while we womenfolk and the babies sat in another. :)

So, I think I've had a bit exposure to the 'real' Mormon experience. I will go to church again, though I really don't think I'm cut out for doing it every week. We'll see.

[Just_A_Guy]

Glad to hear you enjoyed it, Dahlia.

[LDSVALLEY]

Well, I finally went to church. I thought I was used to children in church (no nurseries in Catholic churches when I was growing up), but I guess I wasn't. There was so much noise from the little kids I felt bad for the speakers, although I guess they are used to it. We had an excellent speaker on gratitude. I forget his position, but I understand he rotates through the wards. I look forward to hearing him the next time he's around. The choir did a nice special selection.

I decided to take the Sacrament and was a little amused that it was actually bread instead of a wafer or 'host' as Catholics call it - I didn't see the boys tearing up the bread at the front. I thought it was a little different and maybe not respectful at first, but then I thought that Jesus didn't have any specially made wafers at the Last Supper. Why shouldn't the people have the people's bread for the Sacrament?

Because of my current physical limitations, I thought I wouldn't stay longer than the service, but surprised myself by being able to sit through the lesson class. I forget what this is called. We watched a video on the restored gospel which was pretty much a life of Joseph Smith up to where his father was baptized. I think a lot of people struggle with the whole Joseph Smith thing, but if you believe that saints, angels, and God visited people (and these kind of visitations are common in the Catholic church), then why not Joseph Smith? Anyway, the class wasn't as onerous as I thought it might be. Besides, who doesn't like a video instead of schoolwork?

Then on Monday, I went to family night with my neighbors and the family of the law student who's been visiting with me. They both have little kids, which I'm not used to anymore, but it was pretty nice with singing, a lesson, general gabbing and a snack. As with most get-togethers, the men went off in one direction while we womenfolk and the babies sat in another. :)

So, I think I've had a bit exposure to the 'real' Mormon experience. I will go to church again, though I really don't think I'm cut out for doing it every week. We'll see.

1 Glad you partook of the experience of Church. My first time I felt like I was at a cross between an Amway convention (everyone shaking my hand) and an AA meeting gone bad. (fasting testimony with lots of people crying and having "weird dreams" about things. IE testimonies.)

2 Now I have come to enjoy the kids, the noise can be loud at times, but when there are few attending it is too quite. The noise to me represents life, both the joy and distraction of it and how we need to listen beyond the local noise to hear the messages the Lord wants us to have.

3 I am guessing but from what you described as the speaker you liked he is most likely a high priest stake representative, they usually come to a Ward once a month to check in and bring business or messages from the Stake leadership.

4 The Joseph Smith bit I wondered about at first as well. When I thought it through I could see where a young man would make up a story about being visited from God as a way to get attention. However after the first couple of times being picked on about it, then chased away, then beaten up, which acts kept increasing up to being tarred and feathered, tossed in jail several times, driven from home after home. At some point on this journey any sane person would have said you know what I was joking, I made it up, stop hitting me etc. I would have done it after the first rock was thrown personally. The only way I would be stupid enough to keep saying it was true was if it really was.

5 The bread was broken up during the sacrament hymn and before it was blessed. The bread just represents the body so it is not sacred in itself. In some areas where bread is not available or expensive other food items such as crackers etc are substituted for the bread. The item used really does not matter, it is the purpose behind it.

6 Hope you continue to enjoy the journey of discovery no matter what final destination you reach at the end of it.

[MichaelCraig]

Dahlia, my oldest son is on his mission now on the south Pacific Island of Fiji. He's 7,000 miles from home. There is an older couple (members) who have the young men and women missionaries over for dinner fairly regular. They enjoy it alot because they get to eat American food for a change. I was inspired by this when my son told me and have since then become close to the elders in my small town. Every six weeks or so they are subject to be transfered but a couple of them have been here a while now. Spending time with them is a joy and a blessing. I give them rides when they have appointments way out in the rural areas. We talk alot and I have also helped them by being the male witness when they visit females who are by themselves. They are not allowed to go into a house unless another male adult is there with the female. Also, it is either the first or second Sunday of the month that they observe fast Sunday so that may be one of the reasons they don't accept food on that specific day but they did not tell me this until recently. Otherwise they eat like normal 19 yr olds do so I load them up with as much pizza and foods they like as often as I can. I feel it is everyones duty to support missionaries as much as we can. They are very VERY special people doing a VERY important and much needed job that is hard so I do anything I can to help them. I'm so glad that you enjoy being around them too. Want to know something that is different? I'm not a member. I love my church and my faith but I also love my elders and they have accepted me just like I am. Yes, I visit the church from time to time. Went to a Baptism not long ago. Awesome. I've even gone to the Bishops house on several occasions with my son. Nicest family you could ever meet. I follow my heart and calling. One day if Heavenly Father nudges me that way then that is where I will go. I know in my heart and by the way the elders love my company that it is right what I do. Elders are the best!! :)

Edited November 19, 2010 by MichaelCraig

[dahlia]

4 The Joseph Smith bit I wondered about at first as well. When I thought it through I could see where a young man would make up a story about being visited from God as a way to get attention. However after the first couple of times being picked on about it, then chased away, then beaten up, which acts kept increasing up to being tarred and feathered, tossed in jail several times, driven from home after home. At some point on this journey any sane person would have said you know what I was joking, I made it up, stop hitting me etc. I would have done it after the first rock was thrown personally. The only way I would be stupid enough to keep saying it was true was if it really was.

This is very helpful, thank you. I think you're right, he either saw what he saw, had mental issues, or knowingly lied about it all. But why do that at the cost of your freedom and life?

To me, the meeting was like a bunch of people had shown up to drop their kids at nursery school, but the teachers hadn't arrived yet. My son is unmarried, there aren't any grandkids, so we don't have a high noise level around our place. Teaching grad school, I'm just not used to little kids anymore. I get the whole 'circle of life' thing, but it's a bit much and I thought it bordered on disrespectful to the speakers. Since then, I've met with my missionaries and talked about that and they said that the speakers are used to it.

I guess I'm used to religious services being a time for reflection and contemplation but it was hard to contemplate anything but the toddler in front of me!:)

[beefche]

I guess I'm used to religious services being a time for reflection and contemplation but it was hard to contemplate anything but the toddler in front of me!:)

dahlia, I'm pretty used to kids in the congregation, but there is one family that has 4 children who are very distracting for me. People at church usually sit in the same seats (or at least in the same area), so I finally decided to sit in an area where this family doesn't sit.

Perhaps you can sit closer to the front? Families with small kids tend to sit near the back (at least in my experience). Perhaps that will help you not get so distracted?

[LDSVALLEY]

To me, the meeting was like a bunch of people had shown up to drop their kids at nursery school, but the teachers hadn't arrived yet.

That describes some of the Church Leadership meetings I've been in! :banghead: