question about civil ceremony and legal marriage...

[kristenshea]

hello! i have never posted here but like to read the forums, so its about time i introduce myself! im kristen, and i have quite the dilemma...

i was born into an lds family that was active on and off throughout my life. we all stopped going to church when i was about 15. (i still considered myself lds but just wasnt active). i started dating someone(nonmember) at 16 and now at 21 we are engaged, have a home together and have a beautiful baby girl. i was fine with this until a few months ago when i felt very strongly that i needed to go back to church. my fiance was curious about it so he agreed to meet with the missionaries and take the discussions. we enjoyed them very much and my testimony just grew stronger and stronger, i stopped working on sundays and have started going back to church and am so happy with my decision! but he has decided he is not interested at this time.(i think its just a matter of time though) i regret being inactive for so long and for not living by the standards that i knew were right. i LOVE my daughter and my life with my fiance, but i know that im living in sin. we are not married, although we live as a married couple would. to him, marriage is not much more than a piece of paper. i now see that it is vital for us to make it official. only problem is, we cannot afford a wedding now (at least the wedding we have planned) and he is afraid of the whole credit situation. he has excellent credit, but mine is....eh, not so good, lets leave it at that. (i was 18 and thought i had plastic money! trust me, i learned my lesson.) i have researched it and apparently it wont be a problem unless we apply for a loan jointly, which we wont need to to, as we already have a house. but he is not convinced.

ok so long story short, if we were to be married by the bishop, but not use marriage licenses or any thing legal like that, just do the religious ceremony, would that be valid in the eyes of the church? in the eyes of God?

im just grasping at straws trying to come up with a solution that is good for both of us. i just dont feel comfortable living with/sleeping with him and not being his wife for too much longer, but i know where he is coming from too...im so confused. any thoughts???

thanks in advance for any answers/thoughts/ideas/comments.... im just trying to do the right thing while still protecting my relationship.

[Wingnut]

Congratulations on your change of heart and attitude. I wish you strength on your journey back into full fellowship.

ok so long story short, if we were to be married by the bishop, but not use marriage licenses or any thing legal like that, just do the religious ceremony, would that be valid in the eyes of the church? in the eyes of God?

There is no religious ceremony without legalities.

[Just_A_Guy]

As Wingnut says, the Church will not recognize anything less than marriage that complies with the legal requirements.

I'd suggest you sit down with an attorney and your fiancee, and have the attorney explain exactly what the legal consequences of marriage would be in your particular situation (they vary from state to state, depending primarily--but not solely--on whether you're in a community property state or not. Also, depending on where you are, it may be that you already have a common-law marriage). The advice would be well worth the cost.

If it's a nice, big wedding you want--you can have a legal ceremony in the here-and-now for under a hundred bucks (only thing you'd have to pay for is the marriage license--the bishop and the building would be free--the joys of being a Mormon!), and you can always renew your vows at some more romantic location when your financial situation is improved.

If your fiancee still resists the idea of marriage after you've discussed all of this with him -- you may need to consider the possibility that his resistance to marriage may actually have very little to do with either financial or romantic considerations. (Sorry if that's tactless; I'm a bit of a pessimist.)

Edited November 2, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Just_A_Guy]

to him, marriage is not much more than a piece of paper

You know, here's one other thought in response to the above. Lots of people would lecture you about this from a moral standpoint; but being a bankruptcy/divorce lawyer I'm going to go on a rant about this from a legal perspective. As such, I'm going to be very blunt at times--not because I harbor any inherent suspicions towards your fiancee; but just because I see it repeated so often among people who thought it would never happen to them.

Let's look at your situation. Even if you were married (which you're not), odds are fifty-fifty that you and your husband would have split up before your child is full grown. So, what then? You're on your own, with at least one child (maybe more). Statistically speaking, you probably haven't finished college. If you had been married, you'd be able to go to court and make your case that you should get spousal support for a period of time, because you sacrificed your education and your career in order to stay home, keep his house, and raise his children. But you never married, so there won't be a formal divorce, and you'll never get to make your case for alimony. Furthermore, when your fiancee walks out of the house he will take whatever he can carry--empty out whatever joint bank accounts his name is on--cash out any assets that were accrued during the relationship--and you'll have no legal mechanism to get it back. Odds are, you'll wind up on welfare or living with family and working a dead-end job while trying to stretch meager child support payments (assuming you have the resources to get a paternity action going--and if you don't, you won't get child support either) month to month for the next two decades.

If you married the guy, though--you've got a ready-made mechanism to allocate the property and keep your husband chipping in on your support long enough for you to get back on your feet. And if you're in a lot of states (Utah, for one)--you can get the forms off the court's website without ever going to a lawyer. Divorce isn't all peaches and cream, but it beats the heck out of a straight-up abandonment.

A marriage certificate is not just a "piece of paper". It's breakup insurance--and, at less than fifty bucks in a lot of states, it's the cheapest insurance policy you could ever get.

[MarginOfError]

Let's not forget that a legal marriage also comes with financial incentives that can improve your financial situation. If you plan on being together and you need extra money, investing in the marriage license is a smart move.

[hordak]

ok so long story short, if we were to be married by the bishop, but not use marriage licenses or any thing legal like that, just do the religious ceremony, would that be valid in the eyes of the church? in the eyes of God?

Yes. Even non religious legal marriages (that meet 1st Presidency definition of 1 man 1 women) by non priesthood holders are.

Otherwise my Bishop,and countless others, would be in trouble for giving the Priesthood, callings, Temple recommends, baptism to converts and part-member families who live in sin.

[Dravin]

Yes. Even non religious legal marriages (that meet 1st Presidency definition of 1 man 1 women) by non priesthood holders are.

Otherwise my Bishop,and countless others, would be in trouble for giving the Priesthood, callings, Temple recommends, baptism to converts and part-member families who live in sin.

Unless I'm mistaken Hordak she's asking about a religious ceremony without the attendant legal qualifications (not visa versa which your post seems to be responding to). A purely civil ceremony is valid, a purely religious one however is not.

[NeuroTypical]

to him, marriage is not much more than a piece of paper. i now see that it is vital for us to make it official. only problem is, we cannot afford a wedding now (at least the wedding we have planned) and he is afraid of the whole credit situation.

...

im just grasping at straws trying to come up with a solution that is good for both of us.

This really isn't that hard. Getting that piece of paper doesn't have to be expensive. You don't have to have a big wedding with a ton of guests and a million bucks worth of flowers.

I'm guessing if you approached your Bishop and told him what you're telling us, he'd barely be able to avoid shouting for joy, and he could help you. Really honestly truly - he's not interested in handing over guilt trips - he's interested in helping you come closer to God. If he can do that by being sensitive to your man's current situation and your finances, then hooray for everybody - especially your child.

Let us know how things are working out!

LM

[Guest Alana]

Since you already have a house, there really isn't a problem with you having bad credit as far as marriage is concerned. Plus, things on your credit report will go away after a certain amount of time. For instance, I sold a car and didn't do the change of ownership form. The car got towed and impounded and since they never registered it, all the bills came to me. After 3 years my credit was cleared up and within two years of that I had excellent credit.

Get his money worries settled. Then let him know that the marriage license, although not important to him, is to you and that you need his support in this.

Congrats on coming back by the way. It really is wonderful being able to feel the spirit to help guide you as a parent and individual. I don't know how I ever did it without it before!

[Melissa569]

I hope you can talk him into getting married. I find the best way to break through defenses like "Its just a piece of paper" is to say, "Ok, well if something makes no difference to you either way, but its extremely important to someone you love-- then where's the harm in doing it?".

My cousin William (son of my uncle John, who is fairly respected in the church) and his wife were in the same situation. William stopped going to church for several years, depsite his parent's regular activity. Then he got into a fight, where he was nearly killed... Shortly thereafter, he met Gabby (his current wife). They fell in love and lived together for a while, unmarried. The near death expereince eventually made William want to go back to church. So the missionaries started comming by. Gabby (who had litterally been through the worst life experiences a woman could go through), had never really been taught much about god or the bible. Never went to any church before. But she was just blown away at the intense positive spirit a visit from the missionaries brought. She said every time they visited, after they left, she walked around on a cloud of happiness all day, which never happened before (by the way, same thing happens to us when they visit, lol). Gabby took an interest in the church, and was just blown away at how all the women stepped in and got involved with her. Her whole life, she was convinced nobody cared about her-- until she met my cousin. She wasn't a pitty pot, its just nobody ever reached out to her, or treated her like she mattered before. She and Will came back to church together. Gabby was baptized just a few months ago, and now she and Will are working hard to go to the temple eventually.

As for the finances of your wedding... There are ways around that. Most marriage licences only cost $40 to $80, depending on your state. As for the ceremony, if you personally know the one who will do the ceremony, then you can work out deals. I don't know if LDS Bishops charge a fee for the ceremony (many pastors/reverends, etc. do). Our reverend in an out-of-state chapel only charged $150.

Then you can do what my cousin William and his wife did this year-- Get permission to use the gym in your local ward for the reception. I helped set it up for William. We went to the Dollar Tree, the 99 cent store, and Party America and bought plastic table ware/utensils, table covers, artificial flowers, decorations, etc. (like the little colorful baggies, candies, and packages of 100 little fake silver and gold painted wedding rings, etc). We put a candy fillded baggie and gold/silver ring at each seat. We did a potluck buffet (each guest brought one dish, drink, or snack). One of the women in the ward was quite tallented with cake decorating, and she made the most lovely cake.... For free too! It only took her a few hours, and she really respected my cousin so she didn't mind.

His bride simply wore a VERY pretty white dress (not a wedding gown, just a classy white satin dress she borrowed from someone) and we all did her hair up with little white "baby's breath" clipped in here and there... We did her makeup, her nails. She was as beautiful as any bride could be! All the women in the ward teamed up with decorating the gym. One of the husbands brought in his stereo with HUGE speakers, and we used William's ipod for the reception music.

The whole thing probably costed less than $300 from Will and Gabby's pocket. The ceremony was beautiful, and the reception was fun, with great music and good food. Trust me, its doable. :)

Edited November 3, 2010 by Melissa569

[Just_A_Guy]

First off, the Church's requirement for a legal ceremony applies everywhere, not just in the USA. (OK, true, when you're doing temple work for the dead it doesn't always apply. But if you want to be baptized, and you're cohabiting, you need to observe the legal niceties regardless of where you live.)

Divinely-approved marriage (and thus, the assurance that sexual relations with one's mate do not violate the Law of Chastity) certainly doesn't depend on the formal sanction of a post-Westphalian nation-state; Biblical history (and our own history in the 19th century, when the state refused to sanction our people's polygamous marriages) proves that. On the other hand: it has depended on a couple's willingness to solemnize their union in the Lord's way, as they understand it. And the Lord's modern-day prophets have said that in this day and age, the Lord's way includes but is not limited to compliance with civil law.

[rameumptom]

Don't let the idea of a big wedding be a distraction from the important thing. The important thing right now is to be married. It will protect you in case of relationship struggles later, AND it will eliminate the problem of living in sin.

Go down to the local Justice of the Peace, spend the few dollars, and get a quiet marriage over with. Later, when you can afford something big, you can do a religious ceremony and invite everyone. The reality is, you already have been together for several years and have a kid. It isn't like marriage would be a surprise for anyone, as you are already together. You just need to make it legal, so your spiritual progress can move forward. And that is the important thing.

[Suzanne627]

Wow, this almost could have been written by me, except I was a convert and then fell away. I am 22, living with my boyfriend and have a 16 month old daughter.

We started having the missionaries over regularly over a year ago. I am living by all of the commanddments except living with my boyfriend. I had a meeting with my bishop and discussed my personal situation. I explained that I am living with him, but it has become apparent that it is too soon for marriage- yet too soon to know if I should call it quits. Have you met with your bishop yet? I left the meeting feeling peaceful about my situation, he understood and knew that the arrangement occured prior to me coming back but that I was putting a lot of effort into my scripture study and testimony.

I've known several other women in our situation, some have married their men and others have not. I will say, if you do not want a "legal" marriage then it is too early for any kind. Keep progressing and strengthening your testimony and you'll be directed towards what you should do.

If you want to be facebook friends or anything let me know! I totally sympathize with you and know some of the feelings/guilt/frusterations that you're having.

[Gwen]

read this and thought of this thread The Impact of Cohabitation on Children : TwoOfUs.org

[Guest]

Kristen... the "wedding" is not what you need. The "marriage" is!

I got married for $140 in 1997. That's $80 for the marriage license and $20 for the justice of the peace, $40 for pizza hut.

I wore my best dress hanging in the closet, my husband wore a white shirt, kakhi pants, and a tie - didn't even own a single suit! We took everyone who could make it to the pizza hut right next to the place where he proposed to me. Everyone chipped in for food/drinks/and a wedding cake. We put our $40 cash in the pot to pay for everything. We didn't even have wedding rings to exchange. My husband gave me this $100 diamond ring when he knelt down on one knee to propose to me. During the justice of the peace mini-"ceremony", I gave him the ring, he said I do, then he gave me back the ring, and I said I do.

My husband and his family are all LDS. My family and myself are Catholic. My husband was only 21 years old then, I was 27. We didn't have any money. That was 13 years ago. We both didn't want to "live in sin". We wanted to start our lives together right. The wedding is not what makes a marriage. We agreed that a marriage started with debt is already an uphill struggle.

I was baptized 3 years later and my husband and I got sealed in the temple after 4 years of being married. I know without a shadow of a doubt, our decision to marry helped us along on that path. We understood that God is what is important in a marriage - not the wedding dress.

So, choose now - do you want a wedding, or do you want a marriage?

[jayanna]

Kristen, I don't think I'm understanding your post right...do you mean that he doesn't want to get married because of the expense of a big wedding?

or

he is not sure he wants to marry you because of your credit?

Credit is not forever, it can be improved. You get a credit report on yourself, and pay off the debts that are on it one at a time. Many creditors will be willing to make a settlement, which is an amount less than what you owe, in order to get it off their books. Sometimes things are on your credit that were put on there mistakingly, or by fraud, in which case you could work with the credit bureau on fixing those.

You can get good credit by paying your utilities on time, paying loans on time, having accounts at banks for a long period of time, and steady income...to name a few.

[Jazok]

A marriage can cost the price of a marriage license in many places. In many jurisdictions you can get your license and married right then and there. (When I married in California years ago, you had to get a blood test, but when I got the marriage license, the clerk said we could get married right then and there for no additional fees.)

I'm going to heartily disagree with that web site posted above. To a child, there is no distinction between mommy and daddy being married and not. The harm in cohabiting parents is that it makes it much easier for one to walk away and harder for the child's caregiver to obtain child support. (The authors of the web site confuse correlation with causation--the fact is that many cohabiting parents have many other issues in their lives, are accidental parents and/or simply are much less fit to be parents.)

[LDSVALLEY]

1 Get married by the Bishop cost is $0.00

2 The idea that a marriage is just a piece of paper is a way of keeping an escape hatch clear of obstructions. Before my wife and I joined the church we met, fell in love, moved in together for the purpose of seeing if a relationship would work, when we got married roughly 18 months later we figured it would be easy adjustments since we were together.

We went through an unexpected adjustment period of several months because our perspectives had changed without realizing it. We went from a non committed relationship to a committed one. There is a mental shift that you are not really aware of it.

Think of it this way, when you buy a cell phone plan you sign a contract to meet specific obligations for a specific period of time, no matter if you begin to feel like a new phone might have better features or look more appealing etc you still have a contract to consider, while you can break them you have penalties to pay in doing so which makes you really stop and think about it being worthwhile or not.

A phone that isn't part of a contract means that there is no issue when you decide to discard it and replace it.

It is surprising how much we run on our subconscious to adjust our conscious thought processes. I am not saying your fiance would go around thinking I wonder if I should replace her or not. But when things get rough having that piece of paper or contract makes the situation much more substantial and it much harder to decide to walk away.

One would thing a child would be even more of a hold but we have convinced ourselves as a society that children are better off with separated parents then unhappy together ones.

When I got married I went around for months saying I was now stuck with my wife for life. (I did stop because she didn't like it.) my thinking was to drill into my head that I was now committed for life, so my choice was since I was stuck for life I had best do all I could to make it as enjoyable as possible!!

It is more then just a bit of paper................It is a commitment of love, effort and trust.