I need your help on this, please

[robynjeanne]

Hi everyone

I have a question that I am struggling with and I hope someone can help. First, a little about me. I am 54-years-old. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I had been inactive for over 10 years and just recently came back to the Church.

I have been doing some reading and studying of a lot of things…some things that drove me away from the Church. I am trying desperately to get a new perspective of these things. Most things, I have been able to get that new perspective on. There is one, however, that I just cannot seem to understand and have a lot of trouble just sweeping it under the rug.

It has to do with Ezekiel 37. The Church believes that the story is talking about the Bible and the Book of Mormon in relation to the 2 sticks. This is in Ezekiel 37:16. I was always under the impression that this was talking about 2 opposing kingdoms (the Northern and Southern) in Israel and the reunification of those 2 kingdoms. Looking further into Ezekiel, around verses 24, it says “And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall have one shepherd:” If the 2 sticks are referring to the Bible and Book of Mormon and not 2 tribes in Israel, who is it that David shall be king over? Also in verse 23, it says, “Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols nor with their detestable things,…”. Again, if the 2 sticks are talking about the Bible and BOM, who are the “they” spoken about in verse 23? This is very confusing to me as to how this relates to being the Bible and Book of Mormon and I am trying very hard to understand it.

I am sorry for having gone on and on, I truly am. I just want to understand this the best I can.

Thanks to anyone at all that can explain this to me. It is very much appreciated.

[Maya]

IMHO If you read the Jewish perspect of BoM you can see that there are several leveles of understanding of all Israelits, Hebrew... forefathers texts. Are the sticks 2 kingdoms? Yes are they the Bible and BoM yes. Both answers are right. Are the kings israelites adn arabs... maybe... David as I understand is Jesus Christ who is of Davids family.

I always tok it literally when I was a lutheran, but LDS came with a new view taht was very interesting. You need to study about the levels of scriptures. We are given the understanding of the different levels according to the knowledge we already have achieved. We get kind of revelations on the way.

Sometimes I get a weird feeling that I understand something while I read... something really great... come and ask me afterwards what that was... I cant remember.... it was just a very breef thousend of a second that I understod something greater, so great I cant put it in words.... but I know I was there.

Asking questions is not wrong, not understanding is not wrong... only thing wrong is to start fighting against what is taught.

[mordorbund]

Ezek 37 also includes a vision of the valley of dry bones. Ezekiel sees the bones connect and come to life with sinew and flesh. It was intended to illustrate the gathering of Israel, but also serves as a testimony and illustration of the resurrection. So here's two lessons for the price of one. Then we move on to the verses you're concerned about with two sticks. With the gathering fresh on our mind, we see the blessing extended to not just a gathering, but also a reunification of the two kingdoms.

When latter-day prophets teach that the Book of Mormon is a fulfillment of Ezek 37, we shouldn't be startled for two reasons. 1) It's another instance where there's multiple principles taught in a single story/event. 2) The theme of gathering and restoration of the 10 tribes meshes neatly with the Book of Mormon, which testifies of its own role in that gathering.

[captmoroniRM]

The Society for the Prevention of Anti-Mormonism: What is the Stick of Joseph?

[Just_A_Guy]

I was always under the impression that this was talking about 2 opposing kingdoms (the Northern and Southern) in Israel and the reunification of those 2 kingdoms. Looking further into Ezekiel, around verses 24, it says “And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall have one shepherd:” If the 2 sticks are referring to the Bible and Book of Mormon and not 2 tribes in Israel, who is it that David shall be king over? Also in verse 23, it says, “Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols nor with their detestable things,…”. Again, if the 2 sticks are talking about the Bible and BOM, who are the “they” spoken about in verse 23? This is very confusing to me as to how this relates to being the Bible and Book of Mormon and I am trying very hard to understand it.

Personally, I'm also not very big on the stick of Judah/stick of Joseph as relating to the Bible/Book of Mormon (though I think it might be a dual prophecy, as Mordorbund says).

But, to play devil's advocate for a moment: I think your interpretation of the statements about David are somewhat problematic, as well. First, David was dead long before Israel and Judah ever split. And if the prophecy is millennial in nature, then one has to explain how a murderer and adulterer like David somehow leapfrogs over righteous Israelites like Joseph, Moses, Gideon, Elijah, Isaiah, Hezekiah, or Josiah in order to become the exclusive and eternal prince of the Israelite nation.

Am I bothered by the possibility that Biblical extracts may have been taken out-of-context by Mormon leaders who were a little over-zealous in defending revealed truth? A little; but not nearly as bothered as I am by the idea that God would put those who loved Him and faithfully kept His commandments, into eternal subservience to someone who didn't.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Traveler]

May I begin by saying that there are many levels in understanding the ancient scriptures. Isaiah tells us that G-d teaches us line upon line upon line, precept upon precept upon precept. Thus it is that the study of scripture becomes more like pealing an onion. As we peal back one layer there is another. The official designation of indebt study is called “textual criticism” and from such study scholars develop what they call “variant readings”. Many believe that individual verses of scripture are intended to have only one meaning. So they try to determine from all the possible interpretation which one is best suited in the specific text.

There is another thought – the other thought is what is called “parallelism”. This is where a specific scripture can have many meanings; each separate meaning is called a parallel meaning. Let me give an example. We have in the Book of Exodus the story of Moses leading the children of Israel from Egypt to the Promised Land. These verses can be interpreted as historical evidence of G-d fulfilling his covenant to Abraham. These verses can also be interpreted as prophetic type and shadow of the trails of the “last days” where Israel will be among the gentiles and be called home. They also can be interpreted as types and shadows of one’s conversion and efforts to leave worldly things and become part of the “kingdom of G-d”. It is my personal understanding that parallelisms are the most fruitful means to study scripture.

The entire book of Ezekiel is written in ancient Hebrew poetic format. If you are reading Ezekiel in the King James version you will note a paragraph symbol at the beginning of many verses. From one such symbol to the next designates one complete poetic structure. The most fundamental structure in Ezekiel is what is called a Chiasm. To learn more about chiasmus google “chiasmus”.

As we consider Ezekiel 37 you may also want to study Daniel chapter 2 and Isaiah chapter 2. These scriptures all deal with the “gathering” of Joseph (Ephraim) and Judah. While considering Daniel chapter 2 keep in mind that there is only one point in history when Rome was divided into 10 kingdoms and that included the year 1830 the year the LDS church (kingdom of G-d) was organized. And also Isaiah chapter 2 consider that in the language of the native American Ute peoples the word “Utah” means “Top of the Mountains”.

Back to Ezekiel 37. The Book of Mormon and the Bible will play a significant role in gathering together a people prepared by covenant to receive the Christ when he returns. The two becoming one fulfills an interesting ancient prophesy in Genesis chapter 41. Pay particular attention to verses 25 and 32. This “doubling” of G-d’s word is a sign of things from G-d that will come to pass. The doubling taking place in Ezekiel is prophesy of the Bible and the Book of Mormon among other things given in parallelism which assist us in understanding the role of the Book of Mormon and the Bible in our day.

The Traveler

Edited November 2, 2010 by Traveler

[bytebear]

The name "David" (pronounced /ˈdeɪvɪd/ DAY-vid) is derived from the Biblical Hebrew name דָּוִד (Dāwiḏ IPA: [daːˈvið]), meaning "Beloved" -- Wikipedia

I think this adds a layer to the prophecy, especially when you take into account the First Vision.

[rameumptom]

The OT contains many teachings that can be applied on many levels. Nephi taught us to liken the scriptures unto ourselves, or the conditions we find ourselves in. This is a very common thing for ancient Hebrews to do. Ancient Jewish Christians did it, when they took OT writings and applied them to Christ.

Ancient Jews wrote Midrash and Pesher, commentaries wherein they applied the OT scriptures to their situation.

And in the Dead Sea Scrolls, we find it as well. The Habakkuk Pesher/Commentary is one perfect example:

The Dead Sea scrolls translated: the ... - Google Books

Habakkuk Commentary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[GADBabaganoosh]

Dualistic prophecies. Isaiah isn't the only one to have them. BTW, you stopped going because a passage confused you? I gaurantee if you had stayed, and expected an answer, you would have recieved one. Faith, brother, faith.

[ryanh]

robynjeanne, IMO your peace is not to be found in reconciling logical understanding, but rather, a witness by the Holy Ghost of the truth of the Book of Mormon, and the restoration of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith. Unless and until you get such a witness, I dare say there will be an endless list of intellectual exercises to overcome.

As long as we live here on earth, there will always be something about the scriptures or doctrine that we simply don't understand. Throwing away all that is good because we can't understand some points is not healthy. That would be like rejecting all physics because I don't grasp some of the deeper topics. Not logical, is it? We are not meant to understand all things. We are meant to learn to exercise faith.

[robynjeanne]

Thank you so much for all of the replies. It was very much appreciated and gave me some things to think about. I have decided to return to the Church.